ragerunner

Attendance: July: For the past four weeks, consolidated revenues were down 1%, or $3.1 million. This is a result of a 7% decrease in attendance, or 363,000 visits,..." http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases...mp;story_id=130 Wow, that is a pretty serious decline in attendance and revenue. What makes this some what shocking is Six Flags report and increase of 3% in attendance. That a 10% attendance swing between the two companies.

"SANDUSKY, OHIO, July 31, 2007 -- Cedar Fair Entertainment Company (NYSE: FUN), a leader in regional amusement parks, water parks and active entertainment, today announced results for the second quarter ended June 24, 2007. The 2007 figures include the results of the Paramount Parks since their acquisition from CBS Corporation on June 30, 2006. Operations, including the acquired parks, generated revenues of $274.0 million in the second quarter and net income of $5.5 million, or $0.10 per diluted limited partner unit. For the same period last year, which does not include the acquired parks, the company reported net income of $11.1 million, or $0.20 per diluted limited partner unit, on revenues of $145.4 million. Consolidated adjusted EBITDA for the quarter, which management believes is a meaningful measure of the company’s park-level operating results increased $47.7 million to $85.8 million from $38.1 million for the same period a year ago. See the attached table for a reconciliation of adjusted EBITDA to net income." First, it appears that income is about half of what it was last year, and that was without the paramount parks. Income with the Paramount Parks - $5.5 million, Income without the Paramount Parks last year - $11.1 million. I am sure other may way in hear but that doesn't look real good. As far as the EBITDA - Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization, here is some info on what this is and why companies sometimes use this (not say they are doing this). "A common misconception is that EBITDA represents cash earnings. EBITDA is a good metric to evaluate profitability, but not cash flow. EBITDA also leaves out the cash required to fund working capital and the replacement of old equipment, which can be significant. Consequently, EBITDA is often used as an accounting gimmick to dress up a company's earnings. When using this metric, it's key that investors also focus on other performance measures to make sure the company is not trying to hide something with EBITDA." http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/ebitda.asp Just some food for thought.

I think the real issue is still on the table, they are up to their eyeballs in debt and they were banking on everything going perfect in the aquisition and performance of the parks to make it work. Which appears not to be playing out in a perfect manner.

I've got to wonder if this is not just some smoke and mirrors rumor to take some heat off Tuesday's conference call. I guess we shall find out soon enough what the numbers look like.

jzarley, You know and I know that Kinzel the Great and company are only focus on what best for the guest and each park. They would never let the dollar get in the way or be concerned about their own long term fortune.

The conference call on Tuesday should be interesting. I wonder if that $500 million figure includes their proposed $200 million expansion on Gilroy Gardens and how many years that $500 million is for.

CF's debt is too big for a company Blackstone's size? In the Hilton deal Blackstone is forking out $20b in cash and assuming $6b of Hilton's debt. I think you misunderstood my comment. I didn't mean to imply that Blackstone could not afford CF, what I was trying to say is that the credit market is starting to really reprice the cost for high risk debt. CF's debt level makes it a high risk investment and many companies like Blackstone may find this type of risk unwelcomed by it shareholds now that they are a traded company. It will be interesting to see if they make any comments about this on the 31st.

I would say Blackstone may be out of the running for CF (if they were ever in it). Their stock is in the crapper. Matter of fact, I would say the chances of an investment firm stepping in on the CF deal is starting to get less and less as the credit market meltdown is now building steam. CF debt is just to big for a company their size and the risk level for an investment firm is really high. I think CF may find they have two options, do nothing and hope they can survive their debt, or hope they can find a buyer(s) for one or two of the big parks. I would not be surprised to see a noticeable drop in attendance and revenue for CF by the end of the year.

Agreed! Maybe we keep having these threads because people keep notices that the theming is not being kept up and is getting worse. I think many people are surprised by this, they really thought that CF would fix these problems and would keep up the rides theming. CF has a big problem on their hand (well they actually have more than one), they bought THEME PARKS and they don't do theme parks. Yet those park guess are use to a theme parks experience. No, Paramount parks were not Busch or Disney but they are/were more themed than CF parks, most Six Flags parks, Holiday World, etc...

Apparently not everyone believes CP is the best there is. I think its attendance came in around 15th in North America (2006). CP has it positives (but so does other parks) but it depends on what you consider important or the best. I would take Busch Garden Europe over CP any day.

I just heard that they are going to sell HW and Lagoon. Oh, wait, you mean they don't own them? Oops!!!

Rivertown is full of trees. I would consider this a prime location for a CF project due to the potential for tree removal.

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially. Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in? Yes, and I have seen you experience such events as well.

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

The real issue is money. If CF needs to reduce their debt by a significant amount they may find it impossible to do that with just the sale of Star Trek or Geauga Lake. It may turn out to be a situation, (we will have to wait and see) that weather or not they want too, they may have to sell KI and/or CW for their value.

So does Busch, Disney, Universal, HW, etc... I am sure they all have guest safety as a top value. They also all have not get sued and keeping insurance cost low as a top value as well.

KI to Busch Entertainment CW to Blackstone Star Trek to Blackstone I would think selling these three would really help their debt issues quickly. I also believe KI and CW are the parks most wanted by other companies.

I guess the real question would be, who is buying and what are they willing to pay for. In today's market they may find that only a park like KI is interest to a buyer not MIA, or Valleyfair. Who knows. I just hope whatever happens it allows KI to become an even better park.

Comparing Space Mountain to FoF is like comparing AE to Rock 'N Roller Coaster... apples to oranges. IMO, Space Mountain or BTMRR is better than AE and Rock N' Roller Coaster is better than FoF. People on here have been complaining about how rough some of the rides are and every roller coaster at Disney is very smooth and well kept. How can you say that CF is dedicated to KI when they've owned it for little more than a year? And you're talking like if Disney would've bought KI instead of CF but this is talking about if Disney would buy CF since that's apparently what they are looking for. If Disney would buy CF then we'd still have Firehawk, a repaired SOB, and FoF (where would it go?). IMO, you have too limited of a view of the Disney Company from the one time you visited and most of your opinion has come from what other people say. What i said if you would have READ my post was if Disney had bought the Paramount parks instead of CF then we wouldnt have Firehawk, and SOB would be SOL. I know Disney is looking at buying CF, thats a givin, thats why we are all posting here. I was only stating that we shouldnt all praise Disney, and we shouldnt want them to buy CF. CF has only owned KI for a year, and look at the pros^^^ I personally do not want Disney to buy CF. If i want a Disney experience i will go to Disney, but if i want to have fun with friends at a theme park i go to KI. P.S. If you want Scooby to become Lilo and Stich then for all means let Disney buy CF, but i would rather look at Nicktoons and HB stuff than Disney stuff. Did I miss something? "I know Disney is looking at buying CF, thats a givin, that why we are all posting here". Do you or someone have insider info that has told you Disney is looking at buying CF? I thought this all came from a media article based on 'what if'?

Ahhhh, I tend to think that Disney is more like Hell on Earth. I certainly hope that Heaven has more natural things and less plastic. If Disney has plastic does that mean Cedar Fair has cardboard?

So, Scott Hamann says that. And even he only says he has reservations about the sale of the entire company report, which means he doesn't entirely reject that possibility, just thinks it dubious. The article itself comes to no conclusions, which is pretty wise for now. I would not be suprised if they decided just to sell some parks to reduce the debt and potential boost their stock. The real question is, if they take this route, do they sell several smaller parks to get X amount of dollars or do they sell one or two big parks to get X amount of dollars.

Some flat rides, family and thrill, with some good theming or a water coaster.

I still find the european park approach to be one of the best. Make sure you have quality theming (not necessarily at Disney level) and don't build a huge coaster every year or two. Give the park guest an all around experience.

If I would have saw that comment I would have supported it. I still am not a fan of CF having a 'monopoly' (never a good thing - Geauga Lake should pray they get bought) on the amusement park industry in Ohio. While CF runs good amusement parks, they ruin theme parks (check out some of the comments KBF fans have had over the years since CF took over). I also felt that the debt would soon or later show up in less investment in the parks as they try and get the giant DEBT GORILLA off their backs.

I will not be happy with "Six Flags Kings Island"! Come there and The Vortex would break down so much they'd have it removed, and nothing new would ever be added, they'd put looney tunes on everything, etc it would not be pretty. Anyway great company here! Cedar Fair was supposed to turn KI back to its old days, now we are finding the owners must have a LOT of faith in themselves! No I would not be happy with Six Flags Kings Island. But I would be happy with Busch Gardens Kings Island, or Kings Island a Herschend Family Entertainment Park or Universal's Kings Island. I know I am dreaming a little bit, but who knows. The only way for any of these three titles to happen is if CF decides to sell some parks (KI) seperately and not as a whole. None of these want to aquire the entire chain. I still think Blackstone might have some interest, if the Hilton deal doesn't over do it for them right now.