mwhinva

GL fan, I think the things you suggested could have been attempted by CF to revert the park back to a more family oriented attraction. But, as others have stated above, it is difficult to accomplish. As others had stated, SF created a "Frankenstein" park that scared the villagers away. Especially, if they wanted the small family oriented attraction they were used to. If SF was doing so well in attendance and revenue, they never would had sold it in the first place. CF bought it with, I believe, good intentions to turn the park around. But, keeping the same large footprint did not seem to work. Seaworld leaving did not help. Then, the economy going down the drain the last year and a half delivered a double whammy. Finally, I think the dynamics changed when CF bought the old Paramount park chain. You are absorbing 5 Paramount parks, into the existing CF chain, whose smallest attendance/revenue maker was greater than all the other CF parks except for CP and KBF. I'm sure the CF management had to take a hard look at all of its properties once the merger was complete. With GL being "too big for its britches" and the money/debt situation getting tighter for CF, time ran out for GL.

Hmmm ..... I wonder if each park does their own deal? At Kings Dominion, they have had the wristband deal since 2007 (you do not have to be a season pass holder). The difference between KD and KI is that at KD 1) you buy the 2008 souvenier cup for $6.99 or $7.99 (Dominator cup on dry park side and Water Works cup on water park side. Can be used for refills in either the dry or water park sides). 2) You have a choice of the all day wristband for $4.00 or hmmm .... I don't remember .... the one-at-a-time refills were $1.49 or $1.99 each.

OK So you have been presented evidence. You have actually seen plans and diagrams. And you are saying it's a rumor because the park has not confirmed it? I'm guessing that you also believe the Emperor is Wearing Clothes Because He Says He Is. I saw the same story on www.newsplusnotes.com web site. The story had pictures of the site plans (both of the existing saturator ride site and the boomerang layout). check it out.

There is also a short business article, in the Richmond Times Dispatch web site above, that interviewed Cedar Fair's Jack Falfas who attended the Dominator media day at KD yesterday. It was mainly about the economy. Falfas did say that CF was pleased with KD's performance and said that, in the next few years, the public will see Cedar Fair's mark on the park. I assume Kings Island is getting the Cedar Fair "mark" in 2009. Hopefully KD's "mark" will come in 2010 or 2011.

Based on the Sheikra contruction photo from a couple entries back, are you sure it is a B&M dive coaster? In the Sheikra construction photo, the track was in place and then they contructed the concrete retaining walls. The KI swan lake photos show the retaining walls built and nothing between them. Unless the construction sequence has changed for a B&M dive coaster's splash pool, I don't think it's that. Maybe its the Son of Backlot Stunt Coaster! (Just kidding).

I for one find that interesting. It was said somewhere that Kings Dominion opened with Rebel Yell both facing forwards, and now Thunder Road at Carowinds is opening late, having work done on it. Intresting... Nope that is not true. I attended opening day at KD Saturday and the Rebel Yell was running one side only. The woodside (aka fowards side) was running. They must have done some track work on the running side because it felt smoother than last year. The lakeside (aka former backwards side) was closed. On the return trip back to the station, I lloked at the first hill and there was new wood on both sides and the lakeside first drop did not have the metal rails re-installed where the running wheels of the coaster travel. The Rebel Yell did get some track work done as well. It was not as extensive as what you guys are having done on Thunder Road.

Sorry about that. The registration is quick and you can be registered and viewing forums in a few minutes. This is the only dedicated KD fan site currently active, that I am aware of, on the web. (Yes, I know CoaterCrew.com is the connection for the Dominator construction updates; but, they seem to cover more that just KD).

The sign for Kings Dominion has been stripped of the Paramount logo and the "Kings Dominion" lettering. The electronic message boards have been removed as well. Go to this link for the KD unofficial fan web site to see a picture with the sign stripped bare in the forums. The forum topic is under "Paramount sign removal". http://pkdsource.thrillnetwork.net/ This KD fan web site is supposed to be given a makeover at the beginning of 2008. (No, I don't run the site, I just post there). The new Kings Dominion sign, with the new Cedar Fair Logo, is currently being installed. My guess is that the sign itself will be done within another week. I am not sure about the new electronic message boards. We are guessing that they might install LCD message boards to replace the ones CF removed.

Given that the mechanical drawing of the new train color scheme probably came from B & M itself, it appears that the trains are getting a major overhaul. They might be able to repaint the car carriage shell itself (fiberglass molding) but, the OTSR's will be stripped of its padding and re-molded in the orange color or totally replaced. My guess is that KD will order new seats to replace the existing GL seats that have the batman logo burned out. The park is trying to market this as a new coaster for the mid-Atlantic market and I feel that the ride will get a major overhaul. KD could have ordered everything on the trains to be replaced ouside of the main mechanical parts of the train (carriage base, wheel assemblies, carriage connectors, and brake pads). Seat mouldings, OSTR's, and carriage shells would not take long to manufacture and certainly do not cost as much as buying whole new trains. By the time Dominator is up and running, I am sure it will look like new.

Just Came from ScreamScape. They just found out that Halloween Haunt for 2008 at KI will be a separate admission and not included with your 2008 season pass. SC has a link to KI's season pass page with this info.

Sorry, I left out part of my response to one of your questions concerning the number of shows and are any shows any different. KI has more show productions for 2007 than KD. Course, as I stated previously, we don't have as many show facilities as you do. KI...............................................KD Ice skating show (PT).................None Twisting to the 60's (IS)...............Twisting to the 60's (PT) Dora's Sing-a-Long (NT)...............Dora's Sing-a-Long (PS) Nickelodeon M&G (ISB)................Nick at 5 (ISB) Hot Island Rhythms (ISB).............None None..........................................BackYard Circus (KV) PT = Paramount Theatre IS = International ShowPlace NT = Nickelodeon Theater ISB = International Street Bandstand PS = Paramount ShowPlace KV = Kidsville Amphitheater As you can see above, KD has the monopoly on the kiddie shows. There is not much for the adults this year. The Backyard Circus is a show where the kid's pretend to be in a circus. There is a "Ring Master" that guides the show along and the kid's get to dress up as lions, tightrope walker, strong man, etc. and get to pretend they are performing in a circus. It's cute and the parents/kids have fun. Hopefully, in the future, KD will give us adults some shows as well. Most of the shows are the same. Given the timing of CF buying the Paramount park chain, I assume that they did not have time to develop new show productions, for this year, for all the parks. Plus, the 2007 budget limitations might have curtailed creating new shows as well. Given the size of the Cedar Fair chain, I would not be surprised if they create a centralized entertainment division for all the parks. This division would be responsible for creating all show productions for the chain. They could produce 8 to 10 new shows a year and rotate them among the parks. Cedar Fair is so geographically diverse now, the entertainment division could have a show playing for 2-3 seasons among the parks before retiring it. It seems they could reduce costs that way; yet, keep the park chain entertainment fresh and diverse for years to come. That's the way Taft/KECO did it before Paramount took over. Each park would get shows that were different from each other for a season and then rotate them among themselves for the next season or two. Each park was given at least one show to premiere for that season while the other shows could be from another park.

I did not see the KD version of "School of Rock" show in 2006. I did not go to the park that season until the fall of 2006 to get a 2007 season pass (the show had closed for the season). I did see the 2005 version of "School of Rock". The sound system was "rockin" for those performances. Deep base and screaming guitar solo's. I am not sure what is going on with the sound system this year. I realize that "Twisting to the 60's" is not a hard rock show; but, there is something lacking with the sound system this year. I think they need to amplify the vocals more. I know the speaker system in the theatre has not changed since the last time I was there (School of Rock - 2005). I am guessing as to whether or not KD changed out the sound boards, removed or changed the amplifiers used, the types of microphones used, or if it had to do something with the people working the sound boards. It just hard to enjoy the show when you are straining to hear at times. KD currently has 3 places for entertainment. The Paramount Theatre (Twistin to the 60's), International Street stage (Nick at 5 - Nick character short performance and meet & greet), and the Paramount Showplace (former dolphin/sea lion show arena converted to amphitheatre with stage - showing the Dora's sing-a-long show). They also have a little kiddie stage area for the kid's circus show. KD has lost 3 show facilites since Paramount took over (Country Crossroads, Woodlands, and Safari amphitheatres). If Cedar Fair decided to expand our entertainment, then they would have to invest in new show facilities or double up shows in the existing facilities. Sorry, I still haven't made it to KI to visit. I don't think 2006 will be the year either. The water park expansion has been well received. It has been packed the times I have visited! I would not be surprised if CF expands this area again in the next 2-3 years. The Water Works expansion has been a big draw so far! I think next year they need to focus on the land side of the park by revamping a section by getting rid of more asphalt (using pavers - the new KD entrance plaza looks great!), freshening up or adding new attractions - I keep thinking the kid's section needs a overhaul, maybe something like Your Nick Universe expansion. After that, well some new flats would be nice and a new coaster would be super! CF is really going to have to keep on top of KD to keep pace with the competition (BGE, SFA, and HP). Also, the Paramount reign has soured the public opinion of KD in this region. They are going to have to work hard on regaining a reputation for good, clean, well-rounded family entertainment at a fair price. If CF plays their cards right, KD has great potential for the chain. KD has a huge market still untapped. Next to KI, KD has the most undeveloped land to expand upon. That gives CF plenty of reasons to invest in the park. Time will tell.

Nice Pictures! I was wondering how they staged this outdoors. My homepark is KD and they staged this show inside the Paramount Theatre. The KI show looks like it has 3-4 more performers in it than at KD. The KD show has 3 couples, the announcer, and one extra girl. The KI version has 4 couples, the announcer, and two extra girls. Most of the floor props are the same in both shows. Though the KD version has some scene changes due to the fact they use the fly system in the theatre to raise and lower 3-4 set pieces. Just 2 issues I have with the KD version. First, They need to work on the sound system (hard to hear the singing). I don't know if this is the sound system and/or the people running the sound board. Second, I wish they had staged this better in the Paramount Theatre. The whole stage is used, and sometimes I think the production gets swallowed up on that big stage. You got to remember that the Paramount Theatre was constructed to handle Broadway style shows with big sets and up to 16 performers on the stage at one time. The sets are somewhat sparse and, as I stated above, the number of performers at KD make the production look like it is spread out a little too thin. I think with a few more performers, or if they pushed the show closer to the audience and did not use the back 25% of the stage, that would tighten the show up and improve the audience experience. I think this show was produced initially for CP in a theatre space that was smaller that the Paramount Theatre. That might the the issue. That aside, it is a good show and it is produced well. The performers have great voices and are very energenic. They certainly get into their parts! I hope you guys enjoy your version!

I don't think the Drop Zones at KI or KD are the same model/version as the one that was involved in the accident at SFK. Both of those have the cables overhead attached to the catch car. The seat ring does not have any cable attachments on it at all. The cables are wound up on drums at the top of the tower when lifting the seat ring. There is no cable below the riders Don't the older Intamin Drop Towers have separate seating sections whose seats are in a straight line? Each section is 4 or 6 seats across? I'm wondering if the cable is on a loop on those models and the car attaches to the cable and lifted up. I could see how the cable could catch on the lower portion of a persons body if it snapped since the cable is above and below the riders. Don't you sit closer to the tower on those models as well? The seats on the KI and KD versions are 10-15 feet from the tower itself. I don't know about the Intamin drops at CanWon or CW.

I am pretty sure both KI and KD will not go back to the OTSR's for FOF. I understand your frustrations as I am 6'3" and my knees take a beating trying to latch down the lap bar. The problem is that Paramount retro-fitted the trains, that were designed to have OTSR's, with lap bars. The floor space in those original trains were not meant to handle a lap restraint mechanism of this type. They did the best they could with what they had at the time. Maybe, in the furture, Cedar Fair will fund the money to buy new trains that were designed for lap restaints from the start. I don't have any problem with the lap bars in the IJST coaster and those lap restraints are exactly the same as used on the FOF. I think there is more spacing between the seat and the base of the lap bars as well as the bucket seats being deeper on the IJST trains than those on the FOF. This combination allows me to stretch my legs out further and allowing me to drop my knees down.

I Believe CP developed and built Soak City as a seperate gated attraction from the start. Oceans of fun, next to Worlds of Fun, was developed as a seperate gated attraction from the beginning. The Soak City, next to KBF in California was developed as a seperate gated attraction from the beginning as well (the other 2 Soak Citys, Palm Springs and San Diego, are stand alone attractions). All other CF properties including the Paramount parks, that have water parks, are included with the admission price. Most of the water park infrastructure for the Paramount properties was built with a 2 for 1 admission in mind. Water Works at KD is located in the very back of the park with no easy access to the outside of the park boundaries. CF would have to spend quite a bit of money to provide a seperate access road, parking, and gate facilities, not to mention more food faclilites as well. I am not saying it could not be done but I think the expense would be high and the risk of making a move like that would be high as well. I would think that if you were to separate the ride and water parks you better make sure they can stand on their own. The ride park better have some signature high capacity coasters and flats. And it would have to have some major entertainment venues and shows to put in them. From the mid 70's to the late 80's, it was impossible to do everything at Kings Dominion in a day. You just could not see every show and ride every ride in a 10-12 hour period. During prime time (Memorial Day to labor Day) KD would have 8 to 10 shows a day. Yes, 8 to 10!. Some were animal related; bird show, dolphin/sea lion show. An air show once a day. Most were music oriented: Major Broadway style review, country music show, contemporary/pop music (2 different shows), 2 or 3 children shows, roving clown band and other performance artists scattered throughout the park. There was more scheduled in one day than a person could do. the waterpark would need 2 to 3 more major attractions, a couple more children areas, more food and shop facilities as well. CF would have to beef up both parks plus take on the infrastructure costs of making them seperate gated parks. I am not sure if CF can financially handle that right now.

I believe all the former Paramount Parks have stated in one way or the other, including Cedar Fair's Dick Kinzel, that the transition would happen over several years. A business article back in February about Kings Dominion stated that the main sign along interstate 95 would not be changed this season. I imagine that most Paramount logos will be gone by 2008 or 2009 at the latest. I figure CF is staging the Paramount removal over several years to spread out the removal costs. Other than the main sign, I would not expect to see any Paramount logos let at KD's park entrance. KD has remodeled the park entrance for 2007 in addition to the water park expansion.

Kings Dominion said the same thing concerning the new Cedar Fair ownership in a small business article, in the local paper, in February. The park spokesperson stated the main park sign along side interstate 95 would not change this year. The spokesperson stated the park would be intransition for the near future. Changing large signs like KI's and KD's would be a big expense and Cedar Fair is trying to spread the cost of the name change over a couple of years.

I think this whole subject is more complex than what is being discussed here to date. There are many factors that a company like Cedar Fair or any other leisure business would weigh in: 1. Current market share and potential market share not tapped. 2. Regional Economic factors. 3. Competition. 4. Park potential and land availability for expansion. 5. Marketing. 6. Keeping tabs on customer needs and concerns. (And following through on making changes). 7. Having a balance of rides, attractions, and entertainment for the WHOLE Family. 8. Having balance between reasonable prices for food and merchandise and good quality products. Of course, you can certainly break down these catagories further and I am sure Cedar Fair does. I think most of us would love to have a major coaster installed. But look at Geauga lake. Two coasters are gone and one of those is at KI for 2007. I don't think CF is getting a good return back from the attractions, based on the attendance for GL. I think Six Flags took the the "Field of Dreams" approach to GL and they DID NOT come (at least in the numbers that SF expected). I think CF took the approach to lay low for a couple of seasons to see if they could turn things around and they realized they needed to take drastic action to re-make GL's image. The problem is it will take several years to change the park. That goes the same for KI, KD, CWonderland, Carowinds, etc. I believe that Cedar Fair will have to change their thinking now that they consist of 15-17 parks. Don't get me wrong, Cedar Point will have to be high on their list because it is currently their only major full resort in existance. They have quite a bit of money tied up in that resort and they have to keep it up and improve it. But, they now own five new parks of which all have drawn greater attendance that any existing CF property with the exception of Cedar Point and Knott's Berry Farm (well, I thought KI CWonderland drew more than CP). So Cedar Fair can't ignore those new properties either. My home park is Kings Dominion and, as you are aware, we are getting 3 major additons to the water park. The other two parks in the Cedar Fair Southern Division, Carowinds and World/Oceans of Fun are getting general park improvements this year. Carowinds is getting their 360 swingin ship back and an figure skating show. CWonderland is getting 2 brand new restaurants and a expanded show schedule with both the ice skating show and the twisting to the 60's show as well. Great America is getting a new wave pool. You folks are getting Night Hawk and probably an expanded show schedule. So, given the fact that CF just paid over a billion dollars for all the paramount parks, plus took us over in the middle of a season, I think we did not come out too bad for 2007. Can you imagine what the parks would be like iF CBS was running them for 2007?

I cannot speak for KI's international street buildings. But, at King's Dominion's International Street, all buildings lining the fountains have a second floor. Some areas are used for storage, the offices for some of the departments were located there. When I worked in rides, the office where we picked up the employee time cards, ride capacity and maintenance request forms, and the keys to start the ride were located on the 2nd floor of one of the buildings. I know the park has used the 2nd floor in some of the buildings for a lounge for the walk around characters. I know that, at one time, the 2nd floor of the first building on the right side of IS (as you face the tower after entering the main gate), had a VIP bar and lounge. I do not think that exists any more. For 2007, Kings Dominion is getting a China Panda restaurant on International Street. It is replacing the Alpine Deli (last building on the right side of IS, just before you get to the tower). They are changing the menu at the Border Cafe on IS as well,

What I meant by my previous response, is that the park names Kings Dominion, Kings Island, Carowinds, etc. were branded as such longer (18-19 years) than with the Paramount name attached (14 years). Most of the public identifies with the non-Paramount names even while under the Paramount/Viacom/CBS ownership. The general public did not see drastic changes to Kings Dominion as a whole during the Taft/KECO/Linder years. The park, during those ownership years, was stable and was well rounded as far as ride attractions and entertainment goes. And the themed areas and landscaping was kept up. I can't say as much during the years with the Paramount name attached.

As far as the Paramount is concerned, that name was tacked on to all of the former Taft/KECO park names in '92 or '93. The only thing Cedar Fair did was drop the Paramount from all the parks and now they are back to their original names. The Taft/KECO names were around 3-4 years longer than with the Paramount slapped on. I noticed that the new Tornado attraction is on the "Old" side of the water park (north side of the Rebel Yell) and the other two new attractions (2nd wave pool and mammoth slide) are on the "New" side of the water park (south side of the Rebel Yell). So much for the theory floating around that all water park attractions would be relocated to the south of the Rebel Yell. Things are getting interesting for 2007.

Well, keep in mind that all former Paramount parks will be in transition for the next 2-3 seasons. The local paper this past Monday, had an article in the business section talking about the removal of Paramount logo from Kings Dominion. The reporter asked when the big sign next to interstate 95 will be altered. The park's spokesperson stated that the sign would not be changed in 2007 and that the park will be in transition for the next couple of years.

FYI, All former Paramount Parks web sites have been changed. There is no reference to Paramount and the main web navigations have been re-worked.

From the small picture on KD's web site. It looks like they have a live band backing up the singers/dancers. Kinda reminds me of the old "Rock around the Clock" show at KD. They had a live band backing them up as well. Both KI's and KD's Paramount theaters were built for major broadway style shows. They both have the fly space above the stage and big stage houses to store major set pieces out of sight when not in use. There was an article in a entertainment site that talks about Cedar Point's shows and how their show facilities were buildings that were converted to be used for entertainment purposes. These show facilities do not have the fly space or big stage houses to accomodate major set changes. They rely on the talent of the performers, musicians, and costumes to carry the shows. I think one of the best Broadway style shows that KD ever ran was the "Gotta Dance" show. That ran for 2 years. It had the most elaborate sets and costumes. The music and performers were excellent. There were a couple other shows that ran for 2 years as well. These shows were not cheap to produce and I would imagine it would cost over 1 million dollars to produce shows like this again. But, if you keep it for 2 years or rotate the show to another park, then I think the costs would even out. These shows are a wonderful way to expose the young ones to this type of entertainment without spending $50-$90 dollars a ticket for a kid that might act up and have to taken to the lobby. I hope Cedar Fair will bring back some of the grandeur of the Taft/KECO entertainment years. I know that for Kings Dominion, people came as much for the entertainment as for the rides. KD had an excellent reputation for live entertainment in this region. The park was truely a balanced experience between rides and shows/entertainment in the Taft/KECO years. It was a true family experience for Toddlers up to the grandparents. Cedar Fair are you listening? Paramount didn't and they took out 3 main show amphitheatres during their reign. I really think that hurt the park in the long run.