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Everything posted by BeastForever

  1. This just does not make much sense to me. Carowinds is 7-8 hours away and situated in an almost entirely different market. How much overlap could there possibly be? How far away do parks have to be to avoid these so-called "proximity" issues? A record-breaking B&M giga would perhaps carry as much notoriety as a record-breaking RMC in Steel Vengeance, but they would offer entirely different experiences... The difference between Intimidator and DB in height and length is negligible. Honestly, I find it a bit laughable to use that as an example of them "going bigger". Intimidator is 2 ft taller and only 34 ft longer. Do you consider that as "one-upping"? At the same time, DB has a 4 ft bigger drop, with a top speed of 80 mph, whereas Intimidator tops out at 75 mph. So if anything, it could be argued DB has the edge overall. Not to mention it consistently outranks Intimidator in a number of different polls/rating systems (and NOT just the Golden Tickets) : 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 So a giga just wasn't in the cards that year? After all, Carowinds already had a full-circuit, full-scale invert in Afterburn. KI was checking off a box that virtually every other major thrill park in the world had in some form. And KI was coming off a $24 million coaster in 2014. So a relatively inexpensive GCI obviously would have made more sense. CP was coming off a dive coaster from 2016, which while we don't know the exact cost, are generally are among the most inexpensive B&M models. (Griffon was $15.6 million, Sheikra $13.5 million). I'm not denying that CP warrants more investment than KI, but I think the instances you're pointing out are largely just products of the rotation/timeline. ---- KI, as we know right now is getting what is probably $25-30 million coaster for 2020. Meanwhile, all Cedar Point is likely to get in 2020 is some retro stuff/odes to the past. Nothing extravagant. But the answer to as to why that is is simple: The timeline...
  2. ^^Yes. But that and Maverick would be the only two coasters in the world with 'LSM lift hills'. A giga with a launch lift hill I think would be highly unlikely.
  3. I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't think thats a great comparison, as TTD is an entirely different ride, and by virtue of being a one-trick pony, isn't bound to be many people's favorite in the park anyway. Same goes for Kingda Ka and Escape From Krypton. As @Ben43065 points out, more concerned with the length.
  4. See I'm not really getting this logic. Like I've said before, if the design of this coaster was the result of budgetary constraints (which I'm thinking is probably the culprit), then so be it. But I don't understand why you would want to make sure a coaster isn't "too good" so it doesn't outdo a coaster found at a sister park (one that is 7-8 hours away, and in entirely different regional markets). If you're making a major investment at any park, why would you not want the result of said investment to be as noteworthy as possible with the amount of money that is allotted? As for KI's proximity to CP, a Fury-esque B&M giga would not take away from the uniquenss of a record-breaking RMC (Steel Vengenance).
  5. Yup. Either that.... Or 3,000,000+ people every year prove to be virtuoso navigators, stumbling upon this obscure little southwestern Ohio amusement park, which for years enthusiasts have suggested (whether on purpose, or not) is not to be found "on the map" (Whatever that even means these days )
  6. If the length, height, and/or speed shortages are the result of budgetary constraints, then so be it. However, I don't think this would stop the ride from having inventive elements such the ones discussed above (and as seen in the NoLimits recreation) Regardless, this should make for yet another amazing night-time experience for KI, which can't necessarily be said for the other B&M gigas bordering their park's respective parking lots. ----- And I also stand by my sentiment expressed many months ago, which was that a giga of any magnitude would solidify KI's case for the best and most complete lineup of coasters outside of CP. Both Carowinds and CW have serious depth issues past there top 3-4 - holes which are not present in KI's lineup. KD's depth is comparable to KI, and I305 and Twisted Timbers are world-class enough to put them in the conversation, but losing Volcano was a huge blow to their lineup. I also don't think CF will be significantly adding to their thrill arsenal very much in the coming years based on how investments have been distributed lately. -------- Unfortunately, historic and timeless racing woodies designed by John Allen are not going to regenerate out of thin air (RIP Thunder Road). That's an edge the Kings parks will always have over every other park in the chain for as long as Racer and Racer 75 exist. No good wood coasters at either CW or Carowinds. No Arrow Suspended at Carowinds. No stand-out launched coaster, or quality invert at CW. Sit down boomerangs, standard Arrow loopers, and wild mice rounding out both of their lineups, where as KI has an inverted boomerang (rarer than you think), and a mega looper. Heck, even Carolina Goldrusher I've NOT heard good things about (quite the opposite, in fact) Even our mine train edges out what Carowinds in that department. ------------ So if you were to ask me the question "Are you jealous of Carowinds?" I mean sure, Fury 325 really does look amazing and I can only hope what we have in store can rival it in critical acclaim in spite of its "subpar stats". But the honest answer to this question would be a confident 'NO'. In fact, I somewhat pity them simply for the loss of Thunder Road alone. Thats something you can't get back... Ever. Now I know I'm getting wildly off-topic at this point, but really, I could not even fathom what it would be like to lose The Racer. I would be..... mortified...
  7. From what I can tell by the overhead blueprints (which is to say, very little) the layout seems to be either a mix of Leviathan and Fury elements or something entirely different altogether. I can't really tell. It appears to have some type of helix, which is good (something Leviathan doesn't have but Fury does). The turnaround hopefully will be something more like the treble clef found on Fury rather than the generic hammerhead found on Leviathan and many B&M hypers. As for what happens besides that. I have no idea... My thoughts exactly. I for one am willing to reserve judgment until we know all the exact details via official announcement (or better yet, actually riding it), but understand the 'anticipointment' some are having with what looks (keyword looks, we won't know until we know) atm to be a half-done roller coaster. Tensions, uncertainties, anxieties for many have been running quite high the past couple of days (and will probably continue for a time being). But I get that. Yes, obviously there is virtue found in being grateful for whatever the park decides to grant its devoted fans, but we're human after all. So there is bound to be some who will express disappointment in what they perceive as not what they were hoping/expecting (whether these perceptions/assumptions are well-founded or not). But as you said, I also feel like there is something we're not seeing, something that can't be observed from the information we have available - whether it be an inventive turnaround, sideways airtime moments, tunnel(s), thematic elements etc. Something to make the world's seventh gigacoaster amazing and unique and some way. As for what I think? Well, lets just put it this way.... Come April 2020, once all the footings are poured, track and supports are assembled, and ALL this will have blown over, I have a hard time believing that we won't be absolutely amazed at what they created for us, look back on these tumultuous times and simply laugh at what we were all thinking. When all is said and done, and media day/opening day comes around, I just don't envision a forum filled with disappointed fans, saying they found the ride to be 'underwhelming' or 'meh'. It didn't happen with Banshee, it didn't happen with Mystic Timbers. I don't believe it will happen this time around either...
  8. For me, I guess it depends on what the number is. 305 is stylistically appealing enough, as it rolls off the tongue easily and in the case of KD's giga can be shortened to I305 (as well as differentiating itself from the similiarly themed hyper found at Carowinds). 325 works because it looks nice and is a quarter of a way to 400. But something like Leviathan 306, Intimidator 232, or Kingda Ka 456, would not look or sound good. -------- Ultimately though, for simplicity's sake I would just prefer no numbers.
  9. I personally think either names would make sense for a giga towering over Coney Mall considering the original plans were to rebuild Old Coney Island's Shooting Star before going with Racer instead (and was considered once more before deciding on 'a terrain coaster' in Rivertown. And there also used to be Haley's Comet, Zodiac, Flight Commander... The celestial/sky theme works for me, but of the two I greatly perfer Orion, as a mythical hunter could also be tied into The Beast (which atm looks like it will come precariously close to).
  10. No. Centurion was trademarked on October 18th, 2013, Fury on January 23, 2014, and then 'Fury 325' on June 9th, 2014. The Roman-style teasers that showed up at Carowinds in the summer of 2014 would lead us to believe that Centurion was the original intended name, with Fury perhaps being used for something else (or as a back-up trademark). Somewhere in between the filing of separate trademarks Fury and Fury 325, an issue arose with Centurion already being in use by someone else, and thus had to be abandoned. Once they realized they couldn't use Centurion, they then turned to 'Fury 325' to fit the giga theme. ------ As a side note, to those hoping that numbers are not incorporated into this ride's name, I will say this: "So far, so good!" However, if we see some trademark pop up in the upcoming months along the lines of "Orion 330", or "Polaris 345", well, then....
  11. ^ Haha what always happen is that I bite my tongue for when I don't have the time to write everything I want to say down, and then out of nowhere WHAM! (And just to clarify to @LuvingKI, you are fully within you're right to demand something for the money that you pay, or if you would not want to purchase passes next year, if nothing new is to come next here. But considering its becoming ever-more-likely the great new attraction we've been hoping for, to bring you and many others back, I don't think we should too worried anyway).
  12. And what, in your view, would be the most recent example of Cedar Fair "weaking out"? (Based on your screen-name, I feel that we might already know the answer the answer to this question ) ------ As for the "great debate" that transpired a few pages back, I'd hate to bring it back up again, but there are some thoughts I'd like to express... Read closer into what silver2005 said, and you might realize that he was NOT putting words in people's mouths.... What he said is the people who are claiming the park is not on the map, are "suggesting, whether on purpose or not" that KI's business hinges on one ride. If anything, you put words in his mouth by saying that he's saying that people are saying those things, when he wasn't. He simply said that people are suggesting/insinuating such (and whether they intend to, or not). And I for one agree with his sentiment. Why? Because I just couldn't help to be struck by this certain recurring word showing up several times throughout the discussion.... When people use such words as "need", they pretty much are implying that the park is going to suffer some kind of negative consequence if they don't fulfill said "need". And this is why, silver used the words "whether on purpose or not". Those people might not mean what they're suggesting, but their intent is irrelevant to the result... Not only that, you have one member intimating they won't be buying passes next year, "if nothing new next year"... A better choice of words, would be "KI would benefit greatly from [x.y and z]", or "it would fill a hole in the park's lineup if [insert coaster type] was built". Sorry. Don't mean to be the word police or anything, but I do suggest being more careful with one's diction. ---------------- To be fair, there was one this one poster who did basically just that ...
  13. If they do go with Orion, I think I may have just found the perfect station music for it... And not just because of the name. Its an instrumental so you wouldn't have to tune out any vocals... Eight minutes of generally laid back melodies, riffs, progression. Nothing too aggressive for common ears, and would set a quite mystical, meditative "atmosphere"...
  14. I think it would be rather fitting for either names to be chosen considering that the original plans for Beast's plot was a reconstruction of Shooting Star.
  15. As a follow-up to my comments expressed many pages back, I will say that using 2009 as a datapoint would be incredibly misleading, as that was the season directly following the Great Recession (with the Midwest hit especially hard). So its not surprising that attendance was so underwhelming for DB's debut season, where there had even been a decrease from the year prior... I would bet you that Cedar Fair took this into consideration when looking at the results from that year. And rest assured, as the economy recovered and people again had money to spend we saw surge in attendance in the years following 2010-2012 (gained +206,000 visitors over that span) One thing I think also needs mentioning is that there is another reason to install a big coaster besides just drawing in guests - a reason which I don't believed has been mentioned once thus far... That is, increasing the overall capacity of the park. While its great that relatively inexpensive family attractions such as Antique Cars and Flying Scooter rides garner such and appeal from families, and the marginal dollars spent on these perhaps stretch further than expensive thrill rides at bringing in guests, those rides typically leave much to be desired in terms of capacity... That is where the coasters and large flat rides come in.... Banshee gave 2 MILLION rides in 2014 and 1.66 million rides in 2015. We don't have publicly available ridership numbers past 2015, but I'd be surprised if its not still the most ridden ride on the park. Diamondback, even in spite of its bin and seatbelt hindrance, still remains a people eater albeit not as high capacity as Banshee. I'd imagine ridership is a critical variable that goes into the equation of evaluating the returns of a new attraction, an area where all coasters put in since 2009 have demonstrsably excelled at. When you have the attendance of KI, CP or CW etc. you can use as much capacity as you can get. So forget for a second what guests Banshee drew or supposedly didn't draw in its debut year. I think we could we agree that Action Zone was in desperate need of a headlining attraction to fill the void left by SOB and re-establish itself as a complete area of the park. The 2014 season may have seen only a modest increase in attendance (0.9%), but as @McSalsa wisely points out in this post, that year just so happened to coincide with the long-awaited re-opening of Kentucky Kingdom 2 hrs down the road, and thus may have temporarily siphoned off some of the guests from KI. Once again a confounding factor arises in the same year a $20+ million B&M is installed , misleading some to the tenuous conclusion that KI is ill-capable at turning the gates off thrills... Overall from 2014-2016, attendance climbed +178,000 guests. Granted, other additions were made in this span - most notably Woodstock Gliders and Tropical Plunge. How much of those guests were returning to ride Banshee for the first time? And how many of those guests consisted of families coming through the gates for the aformentioned scooter and brand new waterslides? We can't know for sure. But going off what I said earlier, more guests calls for more capacity, and a couple of kiddie/family rides and a slide complex is not really going move the needle in that realm. Enter Mystic Timbers. Another three train (thank you #shed) coaster which can accomodate overflow from Beast and DB... Putting in a non-flying B&M (on the former site of Vekoma flyer, fittingly enough) will be yet another marked improvement in capacity, and will give guests more than one reason to make the trek out to the area other than just FOF... ---- Finally, one caveat I would like to attach onto a lot of the things said above (as well as, virtually all speculation with regards to "returns" on major investments) is that we don't know all the of relevant and critical information needed to truly determine how well or not well an investment did. Only the park and corporate knows that (and those know do not say!)... Even numbers from TEA, might not necessarily be the best measure, as a lot of it, particularly for parks that don't release attendance numbers such as Cedar Fair, is based heavily on "professional estimation". There are some years where it shows a "net-zero" change in attendance at some parks. (KI 2012-13 ; CP 2016-176). Now what are the odds of that? So to make broad, unnuanced, claims such as "the ROI for Diamondback and Bashee was very weak" is rather irresponsible as you are making an overly declarative statement on something for which you probably don't have the insider information, and if you do, shouldn't be sharing it here... ----- What we CAN do however (and this is what I recommend) is approach these things more inductively and infer from what investments do or don't happen the success or lack thereof a park. For example, KD went eight years in between coasters and the drought was broken merely by a conversion/replacement of an existing coaster in Hurler. From that, I would surmise that it was I305 that indeed did have a relatively weak ROI. Or at least, it must not have been strong enough to warrant a big follow-up coaster like we've seen at KI, CW, and Carowinds. Also, KD already had a comparable ride collection to the aformentioned parks depsite having something like a million less visitors per year (?) I've heard. So not only did I305 not bring in the crowds they were hoping, but there's also not any strong urge or need to increase capacity. As for KI, I'm willing to give Cedar Fair benefit of the doubt and presume that results of the many investments they've made throughout their ownership have positive enough to warrant investing more. Like I've said before, if DB and Banshee weren't successful enough, then I guarantee they would not be going out of their way to put in yet another giant B&M, by which even if not a giga, we're still talking well over $20 million.... And finally finally (this is the end I promise) no one is saying CW, Carowinds, CGA, don't warrant the investments they are getting, but I believe your analysis of KI of rather short-sighted, and does not fully fo justice to their great strides that have been made (and might continue to be made). ----- Note: Most of whats written above is not necessarily a response to MiA Parkman per se, but more so the recurring narrative that I've come across through many areas of the interwebs in the past few months or so.
  16. Now, I'm not necessarily saying they are employing this, but there IS this concept called 'planned obsolescence' you know... Let me ask you this question. Suppose it was possible to develop a paint which indeed never, and I mean NEVER fades. Would it behoove a company's long-term interests to sell such a paint? Think about it.... (But honestly, I would say whatever paint they're using now is probably as high quality as it can get without being inordinately expensive. This paint has to go through sun, rain, snow, heat, cold 24/7/365. So yeah, its going to end up fading whereas most cars at least spend a great amount of their life protected in a garage.)
  17. But it doesn't necessarily have to be as tall as Fury in order to be universally loved or to put a park "on the map" (whatever that even means these days) I305 is the slowest, and shortest in height giga in the chain, and its many's favorite. As for Fury, its not necessarily its stats that make it superior to Leviathan and others. I believe that would have more to do with its imaginative and creative layout. That having said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they do go ahead and break previous chain records. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't. I suppose I would prefer to see some records broken, but if not, thats fine too...
  18. Fair points made on both sides however... What I'm bemused as to why there is outrage to this consdering they don't have to make any offer in the first place, and just because one group is positively affected (in this case, non-pass holders) does not necessarily mean another (pass holders) is ill-affected...
  19. And the irony is that Firehawk had many of those.
  20. Silver supports. Royal Blue track. (And so what if its like MF? That coaster is beautiful...)
  21. BeastForever

    RMC 2020

    I take it Mr. Hudson has not heard of, or does not care much for Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, or Carowinds....
  22. @KI FANATIC 37 Welcome back and we're glad to see you on this site again! It definitely is great to bask in speculation/decoding once again! Speaking of speculation however, it just so turns that you may have walked in at not the best time.... Coincidentally enough, I was just in the middle of writing why I disagree with what you (and others) have said earlier! ........... Really? You don't see why anyone would do that? And you don't see any pros for keeping it? First off, It is by no means unprecedented to reuse old queues/stations. See Vortex, El Toro, Maverick etc. the list goes on. Honestly, I'm a little surprised by the amount of people clamoring for the removal of Firehawk's old queue... To me, reusing the queue and photobooth seems like a no-brainer. If the queue needs more capacity then they can expand it accordingly. And I'm sure that they can find a way to make it look very appealing even with reusing these things. They can build some kind monument/fountain similiar to what is found on Leviathan similiar to what is found in the middle of X-Base walkway. If not that something similiar to Banshee's signage. Really its in the most rational place you could put the queue for this coaster assuming the station starts in Firehawk's plot. Why needlessly tear down a queue just to rebuild in approximately the same place? ~$50,000 may seem small compared to $30M, but its not nothing. Thats $50,000 (or whatever it would cost) that can be used elsewhere...
  23. This has been perhaps the most tired and flimsy narrative relating to this topic (what the guy from reddit said). It has resurfaced time and time again, on this site, on others, in YouTube comments sections etc. But to me it just doesn't hold up. Let me explain... Yes, while it is true that CW and Carowinds are growing at faster rates than KI, this should not be conflated with "they have surpassed" or even met up with KI in terms of Cedar Fair's hierarchy. As you pointed out, KI already has remarkable attendance as it is, more than enough attendance to justify a giga. For the record, as of 2016, KI alone makes up 14% of CF's revenue, CW's share was 10%, and Carowinds 7-8%. In other words, even with CW and Carowinds expanding, they've still got some catching up to do before they can even get to KI's level . Remember, Cedar Fair WANTED Kings Island more than any other park. IIRC Paramount used this as leverage to rid themselves of the chain wholesale in 2006, forcing Cedar Fair to buy all five of the parks. I wouldn't be surpirsed if they'd have bought some of the others anyway, but it was paramount (pun not intended) that they acquire KI. In fact, Cedar Fair even tried to purchase Kings Island as early as 2000. Reportedly, it fell through because of a $40 million dollar tax liability that would have been contigent upon the sale (Source). Kinzel himself described it as "his favorite park outside the Cedar Fair system". --- Ok, and now on to the wing coaster theory.... So first off, there's the fact that the land clearing at this point has become way too big for what a conventional wing would take up. And then there's Mike Koontz specifically saying he's requested a giga at Coasterstock 2018. (For those of you wondering where exactly he said this: https://youtu.be/I3BxfbjxMgc?t=1304) AND there's the simple fact that a wing coaster from the general public's perspective would not be all that different from Banshee (large, graceful inversions, vest restraints). The same could be said for a giga to an extent, but CF has proven with Fury and Leviathan that they're OK with having a B&M hyper and giga coexist in the same park. -- But even if that's not enough... Depending on how you look at it, wing coasters actually are much worse value than a 6000ft + giga would be, particularly if we're going by $ divided by track length (I know, odd metric - but it explains my point). GateKeeper: $25 million / 4,164 ft = $6003.84 per foot of track Fury: $30 million / 6,602 ft = $4544.07 per foot of track My thoughts exactly. If KI doesn't warrant significant investment into a new thrill ride (as some are claiming), then why in the world would they be building any coaster at all? We know its a B&M, and almost any B&M these days is bound to be well over $20 million (sans Dive and maybe floorless), so they might as well go the extra mile for something that will have much longer-lasting value than a wing coaster. Wings are partially reliant on novelty IMO - novelty which diminishes... Its the giant sit-down coasters found in hypers and gigas that stand the test of time. Going off of what was mentioned above about Millie. Its in its 20th year of operation, and its still by many accounts the signature attraction of Cedar Point (I know a decent amount of GP who still prefer it over SV).
  24. ^I dunno about. Floorless and wings are actually pretty different experiences to me.
  25. I'm with agreement a great much. Hoping also I am of a lot and more post come from the user!
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