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KI Guy

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Posts posted by KI Guy

  1. On 9/15/2022 at 3:22 PM, DeltaFlyer said:

    I’ve had a season pass every year for the last 10+ years...

    I understand that a park cannot get something big and new every year, but there has to be something that drives you to renew your pass. This year, for the first time since I’ve been a pass holder, there isn’t anything driving me to renew my pass. I am certain I am not the only person to feel that way.

    @robintodd reading the above @DeltaFlyer is not a whiner who only buys passes when there's a new coaster. Ten straight years of passes is pretty solid.

    It's good that you are enjoying the park. However, most of us are (or should be) glad "on- again off-again" visitors exist. Without them there would never be a reason to make any new additions to the park (above maintenance/replacement).

    The fact that amusement parks add things on a regular basis rather than simply maintain the status quo means that they bring people and money through the gate.

    We'll see in some capacity how this might affect attendance and per capita spending-- although KI is just one piece of the CF pie.

    • Thanks 1
  2. On 9/2/2022 at 10:10 AM, BB1 said:

    If you told me 10 years ago that I would expect CF to theme their properties very well, I would have laughed. Now we live in a very theme heavy park chain that focuses on creating stories within their parks.

    I see this sentiment tossed around here often and I just don't see it.

    Where is the heavy theming over the last 10 years? Take Kings Island which has received more additions than any CF park in those years. Banshee is lightly themed coaster in an un-themed park area. Mystic Timbers has some themed props and a themed brake run that correspond to a story. Orion is themed marginally more than Diamondback with the few props and hangar in the queue.

    This is not a criticism. In my opinion the current level of theming is well suited for a regional, seasonal park. Kings Island hasn't been themed like a Busch Gardens or Dollywood level since just about the beginning. There's nothing wrong with this, it's  just a different approach for a slightly different customer. 

    I think that a good portion of the theming is to allow for marketing campaigns. Some people get more excited by a story, others think it's interesting the first time they see it and move on, others still only care about the ride itself. I'd say the latter two groups together are the vast majority of guests, but I could be wrong.

  3. @MisterSG1Understand that your (clearly) strong views on the rights of minors are not what everyone believes.

    You may disagree, but to most people it is just and fair that adulthood has privileges and rights that come with it. Adults are expected to be responsible by way of their life experience and more fully developed brains. Parents/Guardians are expected to take care of minors and to teach them responsibility. Parents/guardians are responsible for much of their teenagers actions until they turn 18. Of course adulthood doesn't look the same for all and there are plenty of adults who still act irresponsibly, but there needs to be an age cutoff somewhere. Right now, legislatures have decided that's 18.

    This is how society has always functioned. If you don't like it and want to change it, you are in for a much bigger fight than an amusement park chaperone policy.

    The reason for the policy is this:

    There are teenagers who have been causing trouble/a bad image for the park. Cedar Fair can legally restrict teenagers from entering without a chaperone. Cedar Fair believes that to most the positives of such a policy outweigh the negatives. Therefore revenues will not decline as they fear it would if such a policy were not put in place.

    • Like 2
    • Thanks 1
  4. 2 hours ago, nhimes90 said:

    Even though I don’t agree with the theory, raising prices can be seen as a way to discourage the rowdy crowds. In a lot of business minds, it’s the poorer people who misbehave. (100% don’t agree with that) So by raising prices they can keep poorer people away and then the rowdiness may subside.

    I don't think this is a major part of their goal. I think it's about simple revenue. [If If they decide they want to discourage lower income buyers a more effective way would be to nix the installment plans for passes. Kings Island didn't have this option before 2010ish. Dollywood, Holiday World, and Indiana Beach still don't have them].

    I can't understand though why Kings Island passes are 30% more than Cedar Point other than they think the KI customer will still pay it. Bold move.

  5. 29 minutes ago, Oldschool75 said:

    Still scratching my head on why they would invest more money into CGA yet not add any flats to Kings Island which really needs them.

    I believe that the flat rides mentioned are already there now and are not new for 2023.

    Reading the carefully worded press release the 'recently' is key. 

    "Guests can also enjoy the recently expanded and upgraded All-American Corners area."

    • Like 1
  6. 1 hour ago, KI Guy said:

    Respectfully, I don't see this as a 1:1 comparison as I think the expense is what we've been talking about rather than quality (result). Any operator can have bad luck on additions that don't pan out Cedar Fair included (thankfully mostly not at KI).

    11 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

    But, Paramount mostly failed with their additions:

    Top Gun-planned prior to their ownership as Swoops.  They just added Top Gun themeing.

    SOB-massive failure in almost all things except looks and legacy.



    DT/Delirium: Win, except for DT downtime

    Add in the decay of the park under Viacom and CBS and you have what we had in 2008.  

    I don't disagree. Re-read my lines above. :).

  7. 39 minutes ago, Browntggrr said:

    You bring up an interesting point- quality vs. quantity.  Which additions had the greater impact?


    DB, FH, Banshee, MT & Orion.


    1993 Bat, FoF, SGC, Invertigo, SoB, Flying Ace Ariel Chase & BSC.

    Respectfully, I don't see this as a 1:1 comparison as I think the expense is what we've been talking about rather than quality (result). Any operator can have bad luck on additions that don't pan out Cedar Fair included (thankfully mostly not at KI).

    Firehawk was a relocation from a closing park (use it or lose it).

    Bat/Top Gun was impressive in its time like Banshee is now.

    SOB cost more than Mystic Timbers, but definitely was a mistake in retrospect. 

    FOF ended up being a quality addition and was very innovative in its time.

    TR:TR was very ambitious and pretty expensive but also poorly executed.

    Paramount also added Drop Tower and Delirium which is a bigger expense than WindSeeker.

    I don't know how the expenditures would average out on an annual basis, but I think Paramount put in plenty of money to attempt to improve the park.

    • Like 3
  8. Marketing will always pitch something new, after all that is a large part of their job. I think only a diehard/blindly loyal (depending on your view :D), fan would call maintenance/general improvements an addition, and I doubt most would specifically notice such things at all. A new food item is just a new product for sale. A new show is nice, but shows are everchanging and new shows are expected on a regular basis.

    @BrowntggrrRegarding cost of the expenditures, I understand that in part. However, it doesn't hold up particularly well after a closer look. The closest parallel is probably after Diamondback in 2009 (most expensive investment in park history at time). Even in a terrible recession, Cedar Fair still invested in the park in two out of four years (2011 and 2012). After Banshee in 2014, (more expensive than Diamondback), there were additions in 2015, 2016, and a new coaster in Mystic Timbers in 2017. Only then was there a year off in 2018. Starting with 2018 there have been additions in 2 out of 6 years.

    Over park history this was not done either. Paramount built 4 adult coasters and a family coaster and never took a year off.

    Never before through any ownership were there consecutive years without additions and it appears we are about to hit three straight years. I know Kings Island gets more investment than most Cedar Fair parks, but there has been a good reason for that.

    This very well may be a one-off strictly because of financial factors from the pandemic. I'd think though that the park would grow stale to more casual park-goers after consecutive years without additions. I hope this is just a deviation and not the new norm.

    • Like 10
  9. What will happen in 2023?

    I think it will either be no addition (more likely the longer we go with an announcement or teasers), or a flat ride or two.

    I did a little review of Kings Island new attractions by year. Below are the years that Kings Island did not add a new attraction. There were new attractions in almost all pre-Paramount years, and every single year under Paramount. Cedar Fair has added attractions in 10 out of 16 years.

    **For the purposes of this list a new show, new show venue, or re-theme without an added attraction is not considered a new attraction.**

    No Attraction Added:


    Currently we are in a two year drought which is probably the result of CF's debt taken on in 2020. If we're generous we can count Orion as a 2021 attraction given that 2020 understandably was not much of a season.

    If there is no addition for 2023 are you disappointed? Has the recent removal of two coasters effected your expectations for future attractions? Does a lack of new additions effect your decision to go to the park, or buy a pass? Discuss :)

    • Like 3
  10. 5 hours ago, BB1 said:

    I for one would be very excited if we saw something like a "reimagined Oktoberfest" renovation like we did with Action Zone a few years ago.

    While there was some good work put into it back in 2014, I'd say that Action Zone is still the area that needs the most work esthetically and ride-wise.

    The odds we'll see Congo Falls, Invertigo, The Bat, and Timberwolf all make it to 2030 are slim. I say retheme Action Zone to be a part of Oktoberfest over 2 to 3 years. Oktoberfest is landlocked, and at least that has a true theme unlike Action Zone.

    • Like 4
  11. Way more than anyone asked for but...

    One of the reasons minors are not protected from age discrimination from businesses is that contracts with minors are not legally enforceable. Yes, a minor can void a contract at their say so, (the only exception is contracts for essentials-- food, clothing, shelter.

    A store can sell a kid a bike (a contract). The kid can destroy or lose said bike and is entitled to getting their money back from the store. 

    This is to discourage contracts between adults and minors so as to protect the minor from being taken advantage of by an adult.  An adult has life experience, an understood or implied trust or authority, not to mention a fully-developed brain.

    This law is barely ever talked about because it's bad for business, and to a lesser degree we as a society have tended to prefer to teach older minors,  (those who would be more inclined to enter into a contract), responsibility for their actions (outside of egregious cases) so as to prepare them for adulthood.

    For this reason and others you can't protect a minor from discrimination in the way you alluded to.

    • Like 2
  12. 1 hour ago, disco2000 said:

    Contrary to your opinion, the park has indicated the policy has been so well received that they have extended the policy to additional days...

    I agree with you except on this point. In actuality this could been the plan all along and part of a graduated rollout to test the waters/minimize blowback from guests. I think it's actually likely given the speed in the change. 


    45 minutes ago, MisterSG1 said:

    As for driving, it’s arguably one of the most dangerous activities we do daily, by your logic, if a few teens caused some bad crashes by distracted driving, the reactionary measure would be to strip all 16 and 17 year olds of their license. Driving a car carries a lot more risk than two idiots fighting in a theme park.

    This is not an equal comparison. Teens drive to go to work and school. For some driving is close to a necessity for them to carry out their lives. On the other hand,  no one needs to go to an amusement park.

    Driving is a basic privilege granted by the state/province. Amusement parks are entertainment sold by a business. This is about as far from a right as you can get.

    You can disagree with the chaperone policy on principle, but they are well within their rights. Minors do not have the rights adults do, but they also have protections adults do not.

    The only legitimate gripe would be that they have changed the terms of the contract midway through the season. What if a (behaving) teen had only been coming/able to come at the times when a chaperone is now required? Now they have in effect had their pass revoked. That I can see being a problem.

    • Like 1
  13. ^That would be cool as well. At Cincinnati's (Spring Grove) nearly forgotten Chester Park there was a Virginia Reel called the Tickler.

    Arrow pitched a new Virginia Reel concept to parks in the '80s, and made a model, but no one went for it.

    At least spinning coasters exist now which are similar to a Virginia Reel in function.

  14. Interesting topic! Since keeping it realistic is not part of the equation:

    A true Steeplechase on the Backlot plot like this one at Blackpool Pleasure Beach.


    An old-fashioned fun house (non-walk through) like the one at Steeplechase Park (Coney Island, NY) in the '30s.

    • Like 1
  15. On 6/29/2022 at 7:54 PM, IndyGuy4KI said:

    Kids are used to having a device on their hand at all times now. I don't think the old PT or Smurfs would be able to fly today, but maybe I am wrong.

    I know this is a common sentiment, but think it might be overblown. In the 90's it was Game Boys and now it's smartphones.

    Disney proves that non-interactive dark rides can still work. They have many, many dark rides without laser guns.

    • Like 5
  16. I wish circumstances were different and the whole park could be relocated to cheaper land. There have been cases where this has happened (Coney/Kings Island, Elitch's in the 90's and possibly a 2nd relocation in the near future).

    in this case though, I don't know if available, cheap land even exists within two hours of the park (if anyone has insight let us know). Also, I don't know of a full relocation for a park under a publicly traded company. I'd think CF would rather pocket the money and divvy up the assets rather than risk that a relocation would be successful.

    • Like 2
  17. @BeeastFarmer One can criticize aspects of the park while still enjoying it overall.

    @super7 I think 'ugly' would be fitting for some parts of the park (Action Zone, Area 72). Part of this problem is that the ugliness is a result of the chosen theming which itself was probably a result of trying to keep costs down.

    A 'government test facility' theme is a way to incorporate an unadorned steel buildings as 'theming' with no additional cost.

    A theme to a 'Backlot Stunt Crew area' like Action Zone is another theme that requires almost no actual landscaping or theming in the way that Rivertown or Oktoberfest would.

    Similarly, the decision to remove the pedestals on the Royal Fountain were almost certainly due the high costs involved in replacements.

    I think that shade trees planted now especially in Action Zone would be much appreciated in 20 years. Better yet, they could relocate mature trees on the wooded areas of their own property to the midway.

    • Like 2
  18. Screenshot_20220529-215422_Earth.jpg

    On 5/21/2022 at 7:07 PM, ohiocoasterfan said:

    What flat ride do you think would fit in this area?

    Just about any flat ride could fit if they re-route the Delirium line to run the other direction. I would like to see a three ride package for Oktoberfest or three flats outside of Coney Mall.

    Come to think of it has Rivertown ever had a flat ride other than Tomb Raider/The Crypt?

    • Like 3
  19. 9 hours ago, brenthodge said:

    Personally I think all of Action Zone makes more sense as part of a much larger Oktoberfest and that would be a step toward that. 

    Banshee --> Poltergeist

    Congo Falls --> Black Forest Falls

    The Bat--> Fledermaus

  20. 19 hours ago, Coasterteam said:

    as much as I would LOVE to see the trims removed or reduced in some fashion, I don't think it's going to happen for the remaining life of the ride. (can see this past offseason work giving the ride another 10-20 years) (we may even see GG come back a few years down the road to redo the rest of the helix)

    Unlike steel coasters wooden coasters have indefinite lifespans for as long as they're cared for and popular. One hundred years or more for The Beast are possible.

    The only way I could ever see the brakes being lessened is if they were to buy a set of Millennium Flyers trains for it which once retrofitted properly are easier on wooden track.

    • Like 2
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