KI Guy

I don't disagree. Re-read my lines above. .

Respectfully, I don't see this as a 1:1 comparison as I think the expense is what we've been talking about rather than quality (result). Any operator can have bad luck on additions that don't pan out Cedar Fair included (thankfully mostly not at KI). Firehawk was a relocation from a closing park (use it or lose it). Bat/Top Gun was impressive in its time like Banshee is now. SOB cost more than Mystic Timbers, but definitely was a mistake in retrospect. FOF ended up being a quality addition and was very innovative in its time. TR:TR was very ambitious and pretty expensive but also poorly executed. Paramount also added Drop Tower and Delirium which is a bigger expense than WindSeeker. I don't know how the expenditures would average out on an annual basis, but I think Paramount put in plenty of money to attempt to improve the park.

Marketing will always pitch something new, after all that is a large part of their job. I think only a diehard/blindly loyal (depending on your view ), fan would call maintenance/general improvements an addition, and I doubt most would specifically notice such things at all. A new food item is just a new product for sale. A new show is nice, but shows are everchanging and new shows are expected on a regular basis. @BrowntggrrRegarding cost of the expenditures, I understand that in part. However, it doesn't hold up particularly well after a closer look. The closest parallel is probably after Diamondback in 2009 (most expensive investment in park history at time). Even in a terrible recession, Cedar Fair still invested in the park in two out of four years (2011 and 2012). After Banshee in 2014, (more expensive than Diamondback), there were additions in 2015, 2016, and a new coaster in Mystic Timbers in 2017. Only then was there a year off in 2018. Starting with 2018 there have been additions in 2 out of 6 years. Over park history this was not done either. Paramount built 4 adult coasters and a family coaster and never took a year off. Never before through any ownership were there consecutive years without additions and it appears we are about to hit three straight years. I know Kings Island gets more investment than most Cedar Fair parks, but there has been a good reason for that. This very well may be a one-off strictly because of financial factors from the pandemic. I'd think though that the park would grow stale to more casual park-goers after consecutive years without additions. I hope this is just a deviation and not the new norm.

What will happen in 2023? I think it will either be no addition (more likely the longer we go with an announcement or teasers), or a flat ride or two. I did a little review of Kings Island new attractions by year. Below are the years that Kings Island did not add a new attraction. There were new attractions in almost all pre-Paramount years, and every single year under Paramount. Cedar Fair has added attractions in 10 out of 16 years. **For the purposes of this list a new show, new show venue, or re-theme without an added attraction is not considered a new attraction.** No Attraction Added: 1976 1980 1983 2008 2010 2013 2018 2021 2022 Currently we are in a two year drought which is probably the result of CF's debt taken on in 2020. If we're generous we can count Orion as a 2021 attraction given that 2020 understandably was not much of a season. If there is no addition for 2023 are you disappointed? Has the recent removal of two coasters effected your expectations for future attractions? Does a lack of new additions effect your decision to go to the park, or buy a pass? Discuss

While there was some good work put into it back in 2014, I'd say that Action Zone is still the area that needs the most work esthetically and ride-wise. The odds we'll see Congo Falls, Invertigo, The Bat, and Timberwolf all make it to 2030 are slim. I say retheme Action Zone to be a part of Oktoberfest over 2 to 3 years. Oktoberfest is landlocked, and at least that has a true theme unlike Action Zone.

Way more than anyone asked for but... One of the reasons minors are not protected from age discrimination from businesses is that contracts with minors are not legally enforceable. Yes, a minor can void a contract at their say so, (the only exception is contracts for essentials-- food, clothing, shelter. A store can sell a kid a bike (a contract). The kid can destroy or lose said bike and is entitled to getting their money back from the store. This is to discourage contracts between adults and minors so as to protect the minor from being taken advantage of by an adult. An adult has life experience, an understood or implied trust or authority, not to mention a fully-developed brain. This law is barely ever talked about because it's bad for business, and to a lesser degree we as a society have tended to prefer to teach older minors, (those who would be more inclined to enter into a contract), responsibility for their actions (outside of egregious cases) so as to prepare them for adulthood. For this reason and others you can't protect a minor from discrimination in the way you alluded to.

I agree with you except on this point. In actuality this could been the plan all along and part of a graduated rollout to test the waters/minimize blowback from guests. I think it's actually likely given the speed in the change. This is not an equal comparison. Teens drive to go to work and school. For some driving is close to a necessity for them to carry out their lives. On the other hand, no one needs to go to an amusement park. Driving is a basic privilege granted by the state/province. Amusement parks are entertainment sold by a business. This is about as far from a right as you can get. You can disagree with the chaperone policy on principle, but they are well within their rights. Minors do not have the rights adults do, but they also have protections adults do not. The only legitimate gripe would be that they have changed the terms of the contract midway through the season. What if a (behaving) teen had only been coming/able to come at the times when a chaperone is now required? Now they have in effect had their pass revoked. That I can see being a problem.

How much of this is the result of increased media/social media coverage versus a growing number of incidents? In other words, are people actually misbehaving worse at the parks, or are we just more aware of it now?

^That would be cool as well. At Cincinnati's (Spring Grove) nearly forgotten Chester Park there was a Virginia Reel called the Tickler. Arrow pitched a new Virginia Reel concept to parks in the '80s, and made a model, but no one went for it. At least spinning coasters exist now which are similar to a Virginia Reel in function.

Interesting topic! Since keeping it realistic is not part of the equation: A true Steeplechase on the Backlot plot like this one at Blackpool Pleasure Beach. An old-fashioned fun house (non-walk through) like the one at Steeplechase Park (Coney Island, NY) in the '30s.

I know this is a common sentiment, but think it might be overblown. In the 90's it was Game Boys and now it's smartphones. Disney proves that non-interactive dark rides can still work. They have many, many dark rides without laser guns.

I wish circumstances were different and the whole park could be relocated to cheaper land. There have been cases where this has happened (Coney/Kings Island, Elitch's in the 90's and possibly a 2nd relocation in the near future). in this case though, I don't know if available, cheap land even exists within two hours of the park (if anyone has insight let us know). Also, I don't know of a full relocation for a park under a publicly traded company. I'd think CF would rather pocket the money and divvy up the assets rather than risk that a relocation would be successful.

@BeeastFarmer One can criticize aspects of the park while still enjoying it overall. @super7 I think 'ugly' would be fitting for some parts of the park (Action Zone, Area 72). Part of this problem is that the ugliness is a result of the chosen theming which itself was probably a result of trying to keep costs down. A 'government test facility' theme is a way to incorporate an unadorned steel buildings as 'theming' with no additional cost. A theme to a 'Backlot Stunt Crew area' like Action Zone is another theme that requires almost no actual landscaping or theming in the way that Rivertown or Oktoberfest would. Similarly, the decision to remove the pedestals on the Royal Fountain were almost certainly due the high costs involved in replacements. I think that shade trees planted now especially in Action Zone would be much appreciated in 20 years. Better yet, they could relocate mature trees on the wooded areas of their own property to the midway.

This really sucks. With (soon to be) two parks closed under Cedar Fair's ownership perhaps it's time to add a wrecking ball to their corporate logo. My heart goes out to the people of the bay area. Clevelanders know your pain.

Just about any flat ride could fit if they re-route the Delirium line to run the other direction. I would like to see a three ride package for Oktoberfest or three flats outside of Coney Mall. Come to think of it has Rivertown ever had a flat ride other than Tomb Raider/The Crypt?

How about Sky(ride) high?

Banshee --> Poltergeist Congo Falls --> Black Forest Falls The Bat--> Fledermaus

Unlike steel coasters wooden coasters have indefinite lifespans for as long as they're cared for and popular. One hundred years or more for The Beast are possible. The only way I could ever see the brakes being lessened is if they were to buy a set of Millennium Flyers trains for it which once retrofitted properly are easier on wooden track.

^ 'Access to' as in ability to use it this way any day all summer.

Yep, the vast majority of kids do okay with it, but some don't. In recent years the park has almost certainly upped the baby sitting quotient with the addition of meal plans. For around $200 (or $16 bucks a month) per kid you get access to a safe place to drop off your kids that entertains and feeds them all summer.

Yes, look up the Pony Express at Knott's and the MotoCoaster at Darien Lake. They're not huge themselves, but you'll see how KI could fit a larger version of something like that with a longer track and more capacity. Backlot itself was too small for the plot they gave it. Thanks! My initial thought was to just re-theme Backlot, giving it Steeplechase trains, and replacing the Backlot theme with beautiful landscaping. This is unlikely given the different manufacturers. Also, its been long enough now that it's probably not worth revamping vs replacement. They could even give it Kentucky Derbyesque theming if they would like a regional tie-in.

Backlot is nice in that it's a family coaster, but it is just a blight on the park. It has to go. 1)( Highly Unlikely) Remove Backlot Stunt Coaster. Move the antique cars to their rightful location. Add flat rides on the current 'tiques sight. Various other traditional-sized flats throughout the park. OR 2) (Also very unlikely) Remove Backlot and replace it with a Steeplechase (Pony Express)- a larger version than the one at Knott's. Put in some nice landscaping. Various other traditional-sized flats throughout the park. My somewhat more realistic wish is to overhaul Action Zone into a cohesive theme when Congo and Invertigo hit the "service life" wall. Even though it's nice to see Timberwolf used this year I'm still not entirely convinced it's long for this world. We shall see. With that factored into the equation there is some great potential in that area for a revamp.

That's true, but remember the risks are on both sides for buyers and sellers, especially for the buying/selling of a future good or service.

Disclaimers are often disregarded by courts if they are determined to be unreasonable be. Reason is always used in evaluating the validity of the terms even when agreed upon by the paying customer. If the logic of your first sentence above was taken to to the letter of the law then the disclaimer-- "All operating dates and hours are subject to change without notice." --could mean that after you bought your pass the park could in theory decide that the 2022 operating season now consists of 3 Saturdays in July and you would have no recourse. The park did not of course go to this length in 2020, but my argument is that there is a point at which changes to an operating season become unreasonable and that it is a judge/jury's job to make that determination. I think the park should have honored refund requests made in good faith in 2020. The 2020 pass people bought (many of which were purchased before the pandemic) was for a normal 2020 operating season, not a severely reduced 2020 season and a 2021 season. Although the "deal" of a shortened, masked 2020 with an extension through the 2021 season was happily accepted by most (including me), I can easily see how some wouldn't have felt that way. People tied up money for a year waiting for a normal year in 2021 they thought they would get in 2020. Some did not go in 2020 at all due to concern over the virus, the discomfort of wearing a mask, or the less than ideal ride situation of half capacity trains. Life situations change over a year so a replacement is not an acceptable remedy for everyone. *This is not at all a criticism of daily park operations during the pandemic. It is just an opinion that under the circumstances, not refunding money to those who honestly sought a refund was not reasonable not to mention poor customer relations.

That's a pretty darn good idea there @Hawaiian Coasters 325 although I'd think they'd probably just start any theming from scratch at this point. It seems like the perfect place for one of those as there are no big flats (or any flats) in Rivertown. That'd make a be a great complement to whatever they use The Vortex plot for.