MisterSG1

It doesn’t affect my ability to attend the park at all, sure. But does it mean it still isn’t fair? Some of my early days I had with my parents back in the 90s wouldn’t have been possible with such a chaperone policy. I explicitly mentioned 18-21 in accordance to Wonderland because here in Ontario, drinking and casinos, you only need to be 19 to do that here. Still want to oppose a silly 21 restriction and try to justify it by having to be that old to rent a car? And do you have this data, you keep on saying that. But again I think you are failing to see the long term possibly financial damage this will cause, but again all we do is go around in circles. What these parks need is actual security, not the knuckleheads in security uniforms, but real POLICE like Wonderland has. The park security are knuckleheads and don’t even know the park well, I know because I had to communicate something to do them. But during Haunt, Wonderland security works hand in hand with the York Regional Police, the actual true keepers of order during the Haunt.

Obviously you probably saw my lengthy posts about this over on the thread about Knotts. Im our world, rational thought is lost and everyone is quick to jump to a mob mentality. Wonderland’s two murders on their property happened in both 2003 and 2014, I believe the former lead to the installation of metal detectors at all the then Paramount Parks. Had these murders been committed by minors, should we rush to ban all minors from the park, it’s the same logic. The wonderland murders were both done by adults.

Once again CF has decided to throw the baby out with the bath water. it’s a futile point in trying to argue about this so why bother. Tell me, what if it were young adults brawling in the park, like say 18-21, what would you say then, that anyone under 21 should have a chaperone? Wonderland doesn’t have any real behavioural issues with guests, although at haunt back in 2014, someone was stabbed to death by the toll plaza after the park closed that night. Maybe CF was a bit more laissez faire back then because the park operated business as usual the very next day. I was there, I remember, the toll plaza booths were behind yellow police tape and thus associated had to stand outside and collect payment/passes. Since this is a topic that makes people walk on eggshells, let me just say that I would be flabbergasted if CF introduced this to Wonderland, brawls have never happened here and I don’t expect them to start happening.

What I don’t get is why so many people are adamantly defending a policy, and trying to use legal framework even if the policy is unjust. Someone here mentioned about the drinking age in Ohio being raised to 21 some time ago, uhhh do you know how that happened? It was and still is coercion by Washington, the feds basically said that if you don’t raise your drinking age to 21, you will lose federal highway funding. I don’t care about alcohol as I have never ever bought a drink in my entire adult life. But it is a very unfair policy. Combine that with the fact that hypothetically, someone’s who’s 18 could face conscription and die for the country, but not be allowed to have a beer. Jaywalking is a jurisdictional thing, and even in Canada, the highway traffic act in Ontario does say pedestrians have the right of way, but there’s also rules pedestrians need to follow too. Just because they say pedestrians have right of way doesn’t mean one can expect to walk out into the road midblock and expect traffic to stop. Jaywalking in this sense is legal, but you have to do it properly and wait for a gap in traffic, otherwise that could lead to a fine for a pedestrian. Similarly at signalized intersections, the law also states that pedestrians must cross inside the crosswalk and can only begin crossing while the walk signal is displayed. Entering during the dont walk hand flashing is an offence no matter how much time is left in the cycle. Before I get ahead of myself, what is the actual benefit to Cedar Fair in making their theme parks R rated? Again you stubbornly seem to miss the point of how incredibly stupid this policy is in the first place. Don’t be shocked if these teens who now have to go with mommy and daddy throughout teen years instead decide to shun the park when they reach the magical age of 18, to literally tell Cedar Fair “Screw you, Charlie Brown”.

Here are some photos released, as we can see, the structure for Super Soaker is destroyed, I’ve heard the slide’s pump house is where the incident started. Splash Works is reopened but five of the attractions remain closed, that is those nearby. As far as I understand, Minebuster which passes under the Super Soaker structure is running today. There’s an aerial view I can’t seem to post directly here in this news article. https://globalnews.ca/news/9030643/canadas-wonderland-waterpark-reopens-fire/

From what I know from a friend that works there and a pic I saw, it appears the Super Soaker, the three person raft slide is partially destroyed from the fire. This is the big purple slide if you’re looking at a satellite view.

The law not too long applied to the first statement too as NOT being discrimination, but the law got changed for that. Again, there are things that are for adults, like casinos, to compare a theme park to such a place regarding accompaniment is outrageous. As for the policy, I guess the third example covers when 17 year olds want to go on the big roller coaster, but can be granted the freedom to stand in the queue without mommy or daddy. But park security most know where the parents are, since park security are a bunch of knuckleheads who can’t do their real job at quelling trouble. So as a society, are we going to treat kids like babies up to 17 years old and 364 days, and when they become 18, that they simply magically know better, it doesn’t work that way. I started university as a mature student a few years back and my fellow students weren’t magically behaving like first year adults, if anything, first year felt more like Grade 13. There wasn’t this magical gain of wisdom or maturity just because they crossed the number 18.

I didn’t want to have to open Pandora’s Box but I will regarding this and the kind of fallacies that are being used. Take this situation regarding NYC cabbies in which the article says only 6% or so are American born. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nyc-cab-drivers-blacks_b_6116602/amp These cabbies have a bad experience with black people, and therefore choose to shun all rides from black people who request rides. Somehow, our society has deemed that to be totally racist and it is bad I agree, but why as a society can we similarly stroke the brush and say all teenagers are bad, that they can’t go to Knott’s without mommy or daddy, can’t go to a fast food joint without their parents. I ask you all this, when did you first wander off in Kings Island by yourself, I don’t necessarily mean being dropped off by your parents with a friend. But suppose you split up from your family while there, (as you have much younger siblings) all these activities are now illegal in Knott’s.

The policy is so well but it is after all opinion. We’ve all heard that well known quote that democracy is but two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for supper. Is the policy necessarily just, this is the problem I have. Amusement parks may be a private business, but I seem to remember a certain baker getting in big trouble because he refused to bake a cake for a gay couple. I’m not necessarily saying I agree with this but there is a tough gap when rights between the person and the business clash. Driving is a privilege, and somehow those same students got to school during their earlier years of high school. Technically by that logic a teen doesn’t need to be allowed to drive as much as they need to be allowed to visit a theme park. But you using the argument that teens cause problems opens a Pandora’s box that we shouldn’t open. You’d find some inconvenient truths if you looked at FBI data regarding crime. But reference that data and you’ll be called all sorts of names. Heck I risk my reputation by even making a comparison. But the basic question is, if a certain type of people mostly causes problems, should we ban those kind of people. Doing so would be hugely discriminatory and you know it.

Quite the argument you’re making, I visited Wonderland with my brother and my nephew so he could do some rides and spend time together. As a thirty something, I had no problems whatsoever with teenagers in the park, I did not see any misbehaving. Also, you are making a BIG assumption, which would be discriminatory by any other metric. You say that teenagers cause problems, that is only teenagers cause problems or ALL teenagers cause problems. For the very small minority of teens that do cause problems, maybe it’s time for park security and if need be local police forces to take action rather than the laissez-faire approach seen in the parks. By action, I mean line jumping will get you thrown out, no exceptions, no kidding. You using the argument for adult oriented places like casinos and places that serve alcohol to create a chaperone policy, these places you mention are for adults, very different, a theme park for bloody sake is a place for kids to have fun. How many families are inclined to ride the thrill rides together? something that Paramount installed many of at the cost of traditional family rides at Wonderland. I mean I don’t exactly imagine families riding Delirium together. As for driving, it’s arguably one of the most dangerous activities we do daily, by your logic, if a few teens caused some bad crashes by distracted driving, the reactionary measure would be to strip all 16 and 17 year olds of their license. Driving a car carries a lot more risk than two idiots fighting in a theme park. How many of the teenage associates are Kings Island drive to work, I’m sure a majority do. That’s also funny come to think of it, a teenaged ride attendant can work at the park but can’t actually visit the park during their off time without mommy and daddy. As for the murders, Wonderland’s most serious incidents caused by guests, all the perpetrators except one in the 2003 murder would have been able to attend the park anyway if there was a chaperone policy in place, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at. What I was pointing out was that the most serious of incidents at Wonderland, the perpetrators were all legal adults. I visited the park myself a few times with one friend from high school when I was 16/17, and we caused absolutely no problems, and I swear that’s the absolute truth.

So let me get this straight, I’m not sure how the graduated licensing system works in California, but let’s say a teen in 16 can drive alone at some point during that year. We have a situation where kids are responsible enough to be on the roads but yet can’t visit a theme park, I’m sure teenagers are a huge part of revenue for the theme parks, especially at Wonderland. Doesn’t anyone not see this as absurd and discriminatory, so if 1 teenager over thousands who visit the park and behave and act like responsible people, all of them must be punished? Gotta love the attitude of collective punishment, we all experienced this in school where one kid was bad and we were all forced to put our heads on our desks. I’m sure the two murders which did occur on Wonderland property, one on Mother’s Day in 2003, and in after a day during a very crowded Halloween Haunt in 2014 were NOT committed by minors. Business is a lot different than government policy, and hopefully this blows up in their face. But temporary government policies are almost never temporary, there was a time not too long ago where a Canadian or US citizen could cross the border with just a verbal declaration or showing their driver’s license….

When I spoke of 25 Acres, that’s what was written in the BlogTO article I sent earlier, and thus myself and disco took their word for it that the site was 25 acres. Yes, I understand exactly how this happens, it’s usually one building at a time, like was the case at CityPlace right next to the SkyDome. Just on the other side of the highway from the Colossus site is the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre in which buildings have been springing up, there’s no way that Colossus project could fail halfway through. But as such a master planned community, most likely all of the colossus Centre would have to be razed before they start working on the new buildings, I understand this would probably take around a decade to finish, but the new buildings are designed around new infrastructure that would go in the area like new streets. in the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre next door, they have already relocated a Walmart so that the area can be built according to plan. Walmarts in Canada are generally on land owned (or maybe managed) by a group called Smart Centres, who own the site of Vaughan Metropolitan Centre to my knowledge. When it comes to condos, most likely the entire building will be sold out before the first shovel hits the ground.

And finally you spoke of people seeing a ballgame in Toronto. Uh yeah, the SkyDome, that’s the equivalent of having the best VCR ever made, you are made totally obsolete when DVD players and DVRs came around. Seeing a game at the Skydome is more or less like seeing a game at Riverfront with a retractable roof, but oh wait, when the skydome’s roof is open, make sure you wore plenty of sunscreen as there’s almost no protection of the elements there. What other things are there to see and do in Toronto, let’s see Art Gallery of Ontario and Royal Ontario Museum may be decent museums, but they don’t have a show stopping piece in there that everyone knows and many would pay the price. Such as Starry Night at MoMA. Hockey Hall of Fame, great place I’ll admit, but really one would only enjoy this place if they followed hockey at all. Toronto Eaton Centre, very busy place, at the end of the day it is still very much like a large suburban shopping mall despite being downtown. Yonge-Dundas Square, Toronto wanting to create a space like Times Square or Shibuya, unfortunately the actual “square” is empty most times which makes it feel desolate, and a drug injection site at one corner of the area doesn’t exactly make this area friendly/ Casa Loma, I never understood why tourists flocked here but really it’s just some rich man’s house that he never finished and the city of Toronto seized the property for unpaid taxes. It is NOT an actual castle. Wonderland is actually thus a worthwhile place to go when you look at it.

When it comes to international guests at Wonderland, what exactly makes the theme park a draw? Other than just being a secondary attraction in Toronto. What is it at Wonderland that one couldn’t do at theme parks across Europe and elsewhere. There’s nothing exactly “spectacular” about Wonderland. I mentioned Disneyland Paris because despite being the most visited tourist attraction in the Paris area, I’m sure you never hear of people flying over to Paris to visit Disneyland Paris, and this is perhaps the city with the most famous city attractions in the world like the Eiffel Tower, Louvre for example. Toronto cannot even fall back on such world class attractions, the only thing somewhat that’s a big one is the CN Tower, but it hasn’t been the highest observation deck since 2007.

Ok, I’m replying here to disco, you first spoke about comparing a movie theatre to a church, that’s not even a completely comparable scenario. This is the property area we are speaking of in which both a multiplex and a Costco are involved. Now the owner of that property wishes to turn that into a condo community as seen here, very different than a church. Not to sound smug, but a church can’t exactly be residence space for thousands upon thousands of new residents. Again, that’s 25 acres of land, now imagine what you can do with over 300 acres of land. In a metro area which has a huge housing shortage and that will only get worse and worse. Your point about international visitors im kind of shocked to hear and will get back to that, this is a quick reply from my phone for now.

I’ll reply to disco tomorrow as it’s getting late. But suppose wonderland is offered for 2 billion, let’s assume we have a condo building in which the units sell at 1 million on average, if you have 10 units per floor and a building thats 30 floors, in just one building you have made 300 million bucks. Consider that pic I showed of Colossus and the intense condo community there, imagine what you could do with wonderland’s space, it’s not a stretch to say a developer could easily fit 5,000 units in the property, thats 5 billion back right there.

I know Wonderland helped spur the development in the GTA, and shifted the focus to development at the time in Vaughan and York Region rather than Durham Region (which is east of Toronto proper) was the plan at the time. Wonderland is easily the most developed of the three parks by far. I’m not trying to be arrogant, but you honestly can’t compare the situation in Mason/Cincy to Vaughan/Toronto. (yes Vaughan had an A in it) growth has exploded since the late 70s in what we now call the GTA (Greater Toronto Area). In 1980 when Wonderland opened, we were around 3 million or so, now we are easily over 7 (as there’s different definitions of what the GTA is) Cincy is about a third of that I think, just over 2 million. First thing to consider, not far from the park, a few miles down the road is a subway station which opened in 2017, this has made the area extremely valuable for land and high density housing like high rise condo buildings at least 30 floors high each are popping up all over the area. The Colossus movie theatre, the first one in Canada boasted 19 screens and still stands, I know not the same thing as a theme park, but that site of the theatre may be replaced by condos. https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2022/03/massive-redevelopment-planned-spaceship-shaped-theatre-north-toronto/ This kind of development happening to the Wonderland site, might not seem so shocking as it can be seen as a better use of land. Back in 2005, the Ontario government imposed a green belt which roughly surrounds the GTA, the idea of this is to discourage endless suburbia, which means the only solution sadly will be for them to build upwards. I’m not exactly a fan of this either, and it probably won’t be until the early 2030s when all the area outside the green belt is used (and I hope to be out of the GTA forever by then hopefully) As for ATP and suburbs, interestingly a week before the tournament in Cincy, we share the Canadian Open with Montreal (men in one venue and women in the other, alternate each year), and the Toronto tournament takes place on the York University which is literally on the border of Toronto and Vaughan (and also fairly close to Wonderland, both close to Jane Street) Is Wonderland really an international draw though, it may be the GTA’s most visited attraction. But also, Disneyland Paris is the most visited attraction in the Paris area. In Wonderland, it has the deal of being the only real theme park in Canada, and how many people outside of maybe people on this site would be willing to make the trip there? A place like KI and CP are more of tourist parks because they have rides tbat could be considered attractions. It’s why I asked my parents who go nowhere to go to KI in 2004, because I wanted to ride The Beast and Son of Beast. One last point, where the hospital sits, that actually WAS wonderland property originally to my knowledge. I do wonder if Frontier Canada opened as planned originally, if they would have considered building Splash Works up there…

The difference is the real estate situation in Mason and Sandusky is night and day compared to what’s going on in the GTA. I don’t think CF would get a large amount of money for selling the land KI or CP sits on. You’re right, Cedar Fair probably won’t sell the land, also I’m sure CF will like to see how this Fall plays out politically in Ontario regarding potential Covid restrictions, but we’ll see. Does this 330 acres include the land which used to exist north of Major Mack? Such a missed opportunity that was, the water park should have been built up there instead.

This is more or less an anomaly I guess for prices, but it seems KI is really overcharging, or CW is undercharging. The point being, usually prices for an item in Canada are higher. The price of gate admission I know doesn’t work, but nearly everything else you’ll find being a lower amount in USD.

Let’s sort of reset this thread, and explain why I thought based on what I saw on the other thread why Wonderland may have been in trouble. As described on the other thread, one user said that CGA is bound on all sides by residential and commercial and thus has no space to grow. This is PRECISELY the situation at Canada’s Wonderland, immediately to the south of wonderland is a subdivision, east of it is mostly suburban strip malls, north of it is now the hospital which I’ll speak about more in a second, and of course west of it is Hwy 400. I think wonderland in the past owned more property, they did own the land where the hospital sits, I’m practically sure of it as Wonderland had a huge giant variation of a trumpet interchange with Major Mack and the park. Ironically, this trumpet interchange was missing the most fundamental ramp, from EB Major Mack to the park which made it kind of pointless. The main way into the park is the access road off Rutherford and always has been. Furthermore, with the hospital, something to consider and I hope the government covered their bases which they honestly should have. Is that the hospital sits very close to Leviathan, I hope they introduced a significant level of soundproofing to the windows in the hospital or the healthcare sector (and the general public) will get very angry with Wonderland. As for the 49ers, why is that really an issue? The NFL only has 8 (or 9 every other year) regular season games or 2 preseason games. As CGA is a seasonal park, the NFL wouldn’t compromise that many dates in the grand scheme of things. Now as for real estate, go look up the price of houses in Vaughan and you’ll be shocked, I wouldn’t be surprised if Wonderland could get a 300 million dollar figure for the land it sits on as well. As for government red tape, others suggested that California is a complicated place to do business, I’d assume this would be the case of doing business anywhere in Canada as well. But this is a part I obviously don’t know much about. Now for examples for why Wonderland’s situation is different. For one, being in Canada creates a unique situation, the geography of Canada makes the only real nearby large city Montreal, and that city is a primarily French speaking city, and the park there honestly isn’t that good. Now when you look at the situation involving the border, which would naturally be a deterrent not only for issues with customs, but the whole anxiety is if one had problems while across the border as a non resident. Even those who don’t care about the border, the only real park you have nearby to the GTA is Darien Lake, and like La Ronde, it’s not all that good anyways. So this leaves an interesting situation where Wonderland basically has minimal competition, and its nearest major theme park is Cedar Point if not counting Darien Lake.

The exchange rate shouldn’t really change things that much because in general, prices have been higher for products here compared to in the US. For example, a game that comes out on PSN may sell for $25 in the US but be $35 in Canada. Im sure if we compared prices for Funnel Cakes for example between Wonderland and Kings Island, you’d see the dollar amount in CDN much higher than what the same product is at Kings Island. Anyways, why is CP’s wedge so big? Is it because of CP having accommodations onsite?

The situation is different but I’ve explained in the past in how difficult it was to even build Wonderland in the first place. I think anti-Americanism in Canada is so shameful, but this was a big reason why so many were against the park opening over 40 years ago. The situation is different now but I know the Trudeau Liberals would be indifferent to the closure. Again, with the huge housing shortage, I think many would clap to see wonderland be replaced by condos.

Consider that Wonderland wasn’t open a single day in 2020, and 2021 was watered down, required reservations, masks on rides, etc. There were NO mazes in Haunt, and during Winterfest they confirmed to government policy and a vaccine passport was demanded for entry. It’s not a stretch to see this come back in 2022 during the fall, but we’ll see. Wonderland because of regulation with governments in Canada has the same kind of baggage that CGA has.

As so far, we have seen Wonderand have something close to a post COVID season, no restrictions have been placed on the park at all. And with that, breaking the 4 million guest barrier does seem highly plausible, the situation at CGA causes concern for the future of Wonderland. Ignoring what the government chooses to do next here in Ontario should a new variant arise. Many have quoted the complications of California regulations as to why Cedar Fair sold the land CGA sits on. Now, the GTA has the same kind of crazy real estate situation that is seen in SF, watch any news up here and you’ll hear doom and gloom about Canada’s housing shortage and what not. Of course I won’t get into my opinions as to why this has happened and it really is a dark side to living in this area. The fact remains that Wonderland sits on prime real estate for condominiums. It’s not a stretch to say that Wonderland‘s land could easily fetch a sale price equivalent or higher of that in Northern California.

As I’m a transit/road enthusiast and a student of civil engineering, there’s a few things I must say off The Bat. This kind of system is a commuter rail, it is not a subway/metro system as I think the OP was trying to make it sound. That is, if someone was using the Chicago example, this would be comparable to the Metra service there. In Toronto, we don’t have two way all day service on the majority of our commuter rail lines, that is service which runs both directions throughout the day. On my line, during the middle of the day, the trains are scheduled an hour apart. Now compare transit usage in Toronto to Cincy, Toronto isn’t exactly busting with great rapid transit despite its size. But still, when we compare say associates to Wonderland to Kings Island, the vast majority of Wonderland’s associates take the bus into work in some form, while I’m very well sure the vast majority of Kings Island associates drive. To expect at the very least, two way all day service (even an hour apart) on these rail lines is being very optimistic. But suppose it did, if you wanted to get to the western terminus of the green line after a day at KI, you’d first have to wait for your train to come to take you to another transfer point where you’d most likely have to wait a significant amount of time for a second train. You can see how this wouldn’t be practical even if the system existed. When KI has very low bus service already, again, this whole concept is wishful thinking and wouldn’t work in a place like Cincy.