Will Timberliner trains be added to The Voyage in 2012?

[thunderbeast1968]

Timberliner trains were supposed to running on The Voyage in 2011. The way I understand, Holiday World wanted to wait to see how the coaster trains were going to operate for an entire year on another coaster.

Does Holiday world plan to run the new Timberliner on The Voyage in 2012?

I haven't heard yet, anyone know?

[jdawg1998]

I actually thought they scratched the whole Timberliner thing. I'm probably wrong....

[TombRaiderFTW]

Paula's mentioned on Facebook that Timberliner testing on The Voyage will continue in the spring.

EDIT: Correction. Turns out it's not getting topper track. I misread a source.

[thunderbeast1968]

Paula's mentioned on Facebook that Timberliner testing on The Voyage will continue in the spring.

EDIT: Correction. Turns out it's not getting topper track. I misread a source.

So, what is topper track?

I have never been to Holiday World. Would love to hit the park next summer, then drop down to Dollywood and take a spin on their new coaster.

[TombRaiderFTW]

^ It's from Rocky Mountain Construction, who recently became known for the track renovation on SFOT's Texas Giant. It basically replaces the portion of the track in a wooden coaster that the train runs on with steel, which cuts down on maintenance, makes the ride smoother, etc. See also SFNE's Cyclone and Silverwood's Tremors, among others, including SFOG's Georgia Cyclone, next year.

Apparently RMC announced at an ACE event this summer that the ride would be receiving the topper track, which Paula later denied.

[thunderbeast1968]

^ It's from Rocky Mountain Construction, who recently became known for the track renovation on SFOT's Texas Giant. It basically replaces the portion of the track in a wooden coaster that the train runs on with steel, which cuts down on maintenance, makes the ride smoother, etc. See also SFNE's Cyclone and Silverwood's Tremors, among others, including SFOG's Georgia Cyclone, next year.

Apparently RMC announced at an ACE event this summer that the ride would be receiving the topper track, which Paula later denied.

You say " It basically replaces the portion of the track in a wooden coaster that the train runs on steel" Texas Giant replaced the entire circuit with steel, but how can it be just "a portion" of the track?? Please educate me!! LOL

[TombRaiderFTW]

^ Haha, sure thing. Here's a better explanation of what topper track is. (It requires Flash to view it.)

The differences are kinda hard to explain... Normal wooden coaster track is made up of (approximately) seven layers of wood laid on top of each other. The top three (or so) are wider than the rest and are what the train makes contact with throughout the ride. Topper track replaces those three layers with steel but leaves the rest of the layers intact. Thus, even though the track is essentially still wooden, the ride is significantly smoother.

The Texas Giant redo uses RMC's Iron Horse track, which replaces all of the layers with steel. There isn't any part of the track that's wood; thus, the ride is drastically smoother. SFOT apparently decided to take advantage of this new smoothness (as well as a few other advantages the IH track has over wooden track) by also changing the ride's profile, thus creating the crazy overbanked turns the ride has now.

Does that (hopefully) make any more sense?

[thunderbeast1968]

^ Haha, sure thing. Here's a better explanation of what topper track is. (It requires Flash to view it.)

The differences are kinda hard to explain... Normal wooden coaster track is made up of (approximately) seven layers of wood laid on top of each other. The top three (or so) are wider than the rest and are what the train makes contact with throughout the ride. Topper track replaces those three layers with steel but leaves the rest of the layers intact. Thus, even though the track is essentially still wooden, the ride is significantly smoother.

The Texas Giant redo uses RMC's Iron Horse track, which replaces all of the layers with steel. There isn't any part of the track that's wood; thus, the ride is drastically smoother. SFOT apparently decided to take advantage of this new smoothness (as well as a few other advantages the IH track has over wooden track) by also changing the ride's profile, thus creating the crazy overbanked turns the ride has now.

Does that (hopefully) make any more sense?

Thank you very much. It does make sense.

[TombRaiderFTW]

^ You're welcome!

On that note, as much as I would love to see what topper track's like, I'm kinda glad Holiday World isn't doing both topper track and Timberliners next year. I'm more curious about how Timberliners will change The Voyage, which wouldn't be as easy to tell if part of the ride had steel track. Can't wait for opening day next year!

[thunderbeast1968]

TombRaiderFTW, I would love to ride The Voyage with the "new trains" heck, I would even be happy to ride it at all. My wife is not a fan

of rollercoasters and my good friend, who used to go with me to the parks just recently had back surgery and doctors suggested no coasters ever

again.

I guess that I need to find another coaster friend.

[CedarPointer]

Maybe they're waiting for Flying Turns to open to run them...

[flightoffear1996]

I really wish they woudl do something with the Voyage because its such a great ride but it sure is rough.

[IndyGuy4KI]

I would be happy if they just fixed the bottom of the first 2 drops. Being HW, I see them doing something with it this off season. As far as the Timberliners I can see them giving them one more chance with the newer design. Do we know if Timberliners are compatible with the Topper track mentioned?

Seems like they put a lot of work into the timberliners with the existing track design to totally reatrack it with a new track design and make timberliners work with it as well. Seems a bit much, but that is just me. I can see them getting creative with the bottom of the 2 drops, but not a total retrack job. I guess we will wait and see!

[TombRaiderFTW]

^ Yeah, I'd imagine Holiday World's gonna take care of the ride's worst spots this off-season. I know at the very least that they took care of the worst parts of Raven between 2010 and 2011. (That ride had a nasty jackhammering tendency in 2010 on the hill leading to the run over the lake that disappeared this year, for instance.)

If I had to guess--bearing in mind that this is entirely conjecture--I'd say the Timberliners would work with topper track. Why? Because topper track wouldn't wear nearly as much with age, thus allowing a smaller range in the track gauge. A smaller range in the track gauge allows for smaller necessary tolerances in the train gauge, which means there isn't as much room for the train to shuffle between the rails.

In other words: As it stands now, wooden roller coaster trains colliding with the track to go around the turns deforms the track. (Which, by design, is what happens with PTC trains. The front wheels are fixed to the chassis and do not turn unless they're being pushed sideways by the outer rail of a turn.*) Thus, while the track may be x centimeters wide in the station, the track may be x+5 centimeters leading into the spaghetti bowl. By widening with wear, there's more room for the train to bounce between the rails, which it usually does. That's sometimes how wooden coasters become rough.

Since PTC trains, which collide with the outer rail in order to turn, are compatible with topper track, it makes sense that Timberliners, with their steering capabilities, would in fact work even better with the topper track. TLs would have less room to wiggle and would presumably wear less on the track since they don't collide with it to turn.

Of course, the thing to bear in mind is that RMC has yet to entirely replace a coaster's track with topper track. I assume that Holiday World would have only replaced the high-wear areas of the track with topper track. But again, I really don't know.

*An interesting side note: When they do, they rake the road wheel across the laminated steel on top of the track, giving rides in need of grease that lovely SCREEEEEECH sound. I've heard Beast make the sound this year in the turn out of the station, Tornado at Stricker's Grove positively scream in the turn out of the station, and The Legend screech both this year and last in the turn between the lift and the first drop. It's unnerving the first time you hear it.

(I'm not sure how much sense any of this made... I'm having a hard time writing what's going on in my head today.)

EDIT: This darn post just gave me the biggest hankering to visit Holiday World. Curse you, off-season!

[McSalsa]

If my memory serves me right, when Holiday World first announced that they would be running the PTC trains on Voyage this year, they said The Timberliners were still coming for 2012. And they have said nothing since to denote otherwise, so I'd say it's still on. But they also said they would be 7-car PTC trains, and when I visited Holiday World on August 28th, The Voyage was running 6-car PTC trains (where was car #7?). (And the ride was quite rough and missing its usual massive airtime to boot!)

As for the topper track discussion plus Timberliners, I see no way how it would not work. Hey, perhaps Kings Island should get Rocky Mountain to give Son of Beast the "Iron Horse" treatment, and then put Timberliners on it...it would probably solve most, if not all, of the ride's problems...except the problem with this idea is, according to a Kinzel quote, it would cost over $20+ million dollars, bringing the total cost for Son of Beast to over $50,000,000 ($20M for the original build, a quote I read said they had already spent $10M more on it, plus the $20M for Iron Horse, plus whatever Timberliners cost). Yikes. You could build a B&M Hyper Racing Coaster (WHY HAS NO ONE DONE THAT YET BTW) for that price!

But, parks have been willing to give older rides expensive modifications in the past...see X2 @ Six Flags Magic Mountain, which supposedly cost over $40,000,000 when its "upgrade" was complete...

[IndyGuy4KI]

If my memory serves me right, when Holiday World first announced that they would be running the PTC trains on Voyage this year, they said The Timberliners were still coming for 2012. And they have said nothing since to denote otherwise, so I'd say it's still on. But they also said they would be 7-car PTC trains, and when I visited Holiday World on August 28th, The Voyage was running 6-car PTC trains (where was car #7?). (And the ride was quite rough and missing its usual massive airtime to boot!)

Back in May when several KIC'ers where at HW for the Bert the Conquer shooting, (including myself) they were running 7 cars per train. I rode it 8 times that day if my count is correct, and it did not have the hammering at the bottom of the 2 hills it had the day before closing day with the 6 car train. I am not sure if this is expected wear and tear on the track or not? Paging a certain guyz!

On the flip side we really have not heard anything more about them still coming for 2012 either. A lot may have changed since the announcement of the "Coming in 2012" was given. Who knows!

[thunderbeast1968]

^ Yeah, I'd imagine Holiday World's gonna take care of the ride's worst spots this off-season. I know at the very least that they took care of the worst parts of Raven between 2010 and 2011. (That ride had a nasty jackhammering tendency in 2010 on the hill leading to the run over the lake that disappeared this year, for instance.)

If I had to guess--bearing in mind that this is entirely conjecture--I'd say the Timberliners would work with topper track. Why? Because topper track wouldn't wear nearly as much with age, thus allowing a smaller range in the track gauge. A smaller range in the track gauge allows for smaller necessary tolerances in the train gauge, which means there isn't as much room for the train to shuffle between the rails.

In other words: As it stands now, wooden roller coaster trains colliding with the track to go around the turns deforms the track. (Which, by design, is what happens with PTC trains. The front wheels are fixed to the chassis and do not turn unless they're being pushed sideways by the outer rail of a turn.*) Thus, while the track may be x centimeters wide in the station, the track may be x+5 centimeters leading into the spaghetti bowl. By widening with wear, there's more room for the train to bounce between the rails, which it usually does. That's sometimes how wooden coasters become rough.

Since PTC trains, which collide with the outer rail in order to turn, are compatible with topper track, it makes sense that Timberliners, with their steering capabilities, would in fact work even better with the topper track. TLs would have less room to wiggle and would presumably wear less on the track since they don't collide with it to turn.

Of course, the thing to bear in mind is that RMC has yet to entirely replace a coaster's track with topper track. I assume that Holiday World would have only replaced the high-wear areas of the track with topper track. But again, I really don't know.

*An interesting side note: When they do, they rake the road wheel across the laminated steel on top of the track, giving rides in need of grease that lovely SCREEEEEECH sound. I've heard Beast make the sound this year in the turn out of the station, Tornado at Stricker's Grove positively scream in the turn out of the station, and The Legend screech both this year and last in the turn between the lift and the first drop. It's unnerving the first time you hear it.

(I'm not sure how much sense any of this made... I'm having a hard time writing what's going on in my head today.)

EDIT: This darn post just gave me the biggest hankering to visit Holiday World. Curse you, off-season!

Very well said. I know that Mean Streak does that same screech on the turns. I wonder what the cost of tearing down SOB would be? (I do not want this to happen) Only reason that I am asking is, 20 million to build plus the cost of a teardown, plus the cost of a possible "new" attraction, wouldn't it be more cost effective just to fix what they already have?? Sorry, that I just turned this into a SOB discussion, instead of the original topic that I started.

[BoddaH1994]

Don't forget that HW got brand new PTC rolling stocks for the Voyage this past year. Makes me wonder if they're in it for the long haul this time...

[TombRaiderFTW]

^^ I honestly have no guesses. There are several things that KI's doing (or, more specifically, not doing) related to Son of Beast that I don't understand.

^ Good point, Boddah. Then again, you have to consider the context in which they bought the trains. Their choices were:

1. Run Voyage with one 7-car train, leading to longer waits and frustrated guests, both of which they strive to avoid,

2. Put the Raven train back on the track, which cuts down on The Raven's capacity (thus causing the same issues as #1) and causes them to spend more money repairing the Raven train each off-season, or

3. Buy more PTC cars to keep all HW's rides running at top capacity and to potentially be used for donor parts for the other rides' trains if the Timberliners ever get running.

Since HW tries to keep customer satisfaction exceptionally high, it seems like #3 would be their obvious choice. After all, the only reason they went with #2 last year, according to one of the HoliBlogger YouTube videos, was because they only anticipated the Raven train being on The Voyage for a matter of weeks.

(Hmm... Just realized how frequently I've been replying to this thread. I'm not actually this much of a Holiday World fanboy, guys. I'm just really interested in the Timberliner situation!)

[BoddaH1994]

You also don't need to omit the fact that those PTC trains are incredibly expensive. Purchasing one is not a cavalier decision at all.

[coaster_junky]

^could it be possible that gravity group is eating the cost of the ptc train, somewhat, since it's due to their trains not being ready on time?

[IndyGuy4KI]

You also don't need to omit the fact that those PTC trains are incredibly expensive. Purchasing one is not a cavalier decision at all.

What if GC gave HW a refund for the 2 TL's that they had purchased, and if they still had the money they got from selling the 2 original trains, it may have not been to bad for them? Either way, like you said, there must have been some cost for HW as well in this purchase.

[WOF Guy]

I had originally heard that HW purchased the old, refurbished trains that came of Gwazi. Is that not the case?

[TombRaiderFTW]

From Holiday World's Facebook:

We keep mighty busy during the winter months around here. Tomorrow afternoon, we will launch a video of Dan Koch and Gravity Group's Chad Miller talking about off-season Voyage track work plus a Timberliner trains update.

They also posted this picture, which I find incredibly interesting:

Talk about retracking! Looks like they're practically rebuilding that turn! (Which isn't a bad idea, in my opinion... It looks like the long turn before the two bunny hops leading to the first 90 degree turn, and that turn's always been at least a little jackhammery when I've ridden it.) Can't wait to see the video tomorrow.

[jdawg1998]

I really cannot wait until they add the Timberliner trains, hopefully they will be there by 2013, hah.

Funny thing here - my family is going to Disney World this summer, but I'm mad because I wanted to go to Holiday World - so I could ride the Voyage and new Timberlner trains!

[rotag]

i may be looking @ it from a different perspective, but if the "iron horse"d the voyage; wouldn't it defeat the purpose of it being a wooden coaster? i mean the only thing wooden to it is the track, as the supports are made out of steal anyhow. also on another note, im still iffy bout the timberliners; if your riding by yourself & with that much force, whats there stopping you from slinging out the side opening of that lap bar device?

[The Interpreter]

The fact the side opening is partially closed by the side of the car, and that the opening is smaller than the rider's torso?

[IndyGuy4KI]

I wonder if some of this track work is to also accommodate the new Timberliners? This looks a little more serious than just general re-track work. Maybe this type of work is different on a hybrid?

[TombRaiderFTW]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K36iWnSaOEQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm going with IndyGuy4KI's theory. If I recall correctly, Holiday World also made a significant retracking prior to 2010, when they initially anticipated running Timberliners, but I don't remember anything indicating it was to this degree. If they're practically rebuilding parts of the ride to lower variance in track gauge, that tells me we're not too far from seeing Timberliners on The Voyage. The Gravity Group would want to showcase their product on a very grand scale not available on rides the size of Grona Lund's Twister or Quassy's Wooden Warrior and in the very best light. (I'm looking at you, Millennium Flyers on Hersheypark's Wildcat. A good ride, but man, my sides were tender afterwards...)

[The Interpreter]

"Loved by thousands, ridden by millions."

The same could be said of the largest wooden coaster ever built in Warren County, Ohio.

Terp, just notin'