Time For A New Woodie With A Twist

[The Interpreter]

No one knows how anything will be until they try.

It may work.

It may fail.

But if you just sit and do nothing, nothing is exactly what will happen.

And SOB was built 15 years ago - so were 2000 model year Chevys, Hondas, and Toyotas. Cars have come a long way since and engineering has also come a long way as well.

Stagnant will get you no where.

And din't I mention thinking caps in the start of this thread?

This particular attitude drives me bonkers. No, not all change is good. To try and fail miserably has drastic consequences. From a park losing all kinds of money, lost opportunities for far better rides (how much time, money and space did/do Son of Beast, Hercules, the old Texas Giant, Mean Streak, Drachen Fire, etc. take up?), lost careers (Mr. David Focke comes immediately to mind), bored or unhappy guests to injuries, to a park merely being stuck with a bad ride/investment for years (Six Flags and Ninja now at SFOG, the Vekoma messes Deja Vu)...

Sometimes doing nothing or at least doing something else is a far better choice than a wrong-headed bad choice.

Final Thought: What would Kings Island look like today, and what would 2014's new addition be had Son of Beast never been built in Mason? What would NJFTP look like? Who would own Kings Island? Dare I say it?--Who would own Cedar Fair? I submit ALL these questions would have different answers had either Son of Beast not been built or had it actually been built to the design specifications without client cost cutting that greatly negatively affected its reliability, rideabilty, comfort, thrill factor and guest and park satisfaction.

Kings Island would not be the same place. It might be better. It might be worse.

The alternative ride was a re-creation of the Rye Aeroplane, for which Kings Island had purchased the blueprints. A ride that, by all accounts, was simply one of the best...ever.

Instead, innovation was selected. Risky choices were made. It is hard to say they benefited the park. Doing nothing would have been, in my opinion, a far, far better option than building the trouble prone, litigation causing, uncomfortable, maintenance nightmare, not even very thrilling, tallest, fastest and only looping wooden roller coaster on the planet. (Why do I hear Jeff Seibert saying those words?).

[TheBEASTunchained]

[Hank]

No one knows how anything will be until they try.

It may work.

It may fail.

But if you just sit and do nothing, nothing is exactly what will happen.

And SOB was built 15 years ago - so were 2000 model year Chevys, Hondas, and Toyotas. Cars have come a long way since and engineering has also come a long way as well.

Stagnant will get you no where.

And din't I mention thinking caps in the start of this thread?

This particular attitude drives me bonkers. No, not all change is good. To try and fail miserably has drastic consequences. From a park losing all kinds of money, lost opportunities for far better rides (how much time, money and space did/do Son of Beast, Hercules, the old Texas Giant, Mean Streak, Drachen Fire, etc. take up?), lost careers (Mr. David Focke comes immediately to mind), bored or unhappy guests to injuries, to a park merely being stuck with a bad ride/investment for years (Six Flags and Ninja now at SFOG, the Vekoma messes Deja Vu)...

Sometimes doing nothing or at least doing something else is a far better choice than a wrong-headed bad choice.

Final Thought: What would Kings Island look like today, and what would 2014's new addition be had Son of Beast never been built in Mason? What would NJFTP look like? Who would own Kings Island? Dare I say it?--Who would own Cedar Fair? I submit ALL these questions would have different answers had either Son of Beast not been built or had it actually been built to the design specifications without client cost cutting that greatly negatively affected its reliability, rideabilty, comfort, thrill factor and guest and park satisfaction.

Kings Island would not be the same place. It might be better. It might be worse.

The alternative ride was a re-creation of the Rye Aeroplane, for which Kings Island had purchased the blueprints. A ride that, by all accounts, was simply one of the best...ever.

Instead, innovation was selected. Risky choices were made. It is hard to say they benefited the park. Doing nothing would have been, in my opinion, a far, far better option than building the trouble prone, litigation causing, uncomfortable, maintenance nightmare, not even very thrilling, tallest, fastest and only looping wooden roller coaster on the planet. (Why do I hear Jeff Seibert saying those words?).

Maybe I need to be a bit more specific.

Today, the designers have learned from the past and now have much better "tools" to work with as compared to 25 years ago. Oh, a coaster could still be built that becomes a flop, and a coaster could still be constructed poorly or with cost-cutting measures that would be disastrous for a park, the public, the investors, etc. - but I believe that ALL things come about through trial and error and if nothing is ever tried, we'd have nothing today.

[BB1]

Now Terp, do you believe in all economic fairness that an Aeroplane model is the next best step for Kings Island now that we have a more family oriented Mr. Ouimet in lead of Cedar Fair?

[The Interpreter]

That was the 2000 alternative. I do not know if Kings Island still has the rights to, or blueprints for, that fine coaster.

[JTW]

It looks like a lot of fun

[CoasterOhio]

I wouldn't mind a 4D coaster, or a Intamin, or a Mack, or a Gerstlauer coaster. Anyday. The park needs something different then B&M's right now.

[BB1]

I wouldn't mind a 4D coaster, or a Intamin, or a Mack, or a Gerstlauer coaster. Anyday. The park needs something different then B&M's right now.

Woah woah woah

A 4D Woodie?! That is certainly a twist that I may not venture on!

[MadMaverick]

No one knows how anything will be until they try.

It may work.

It may fail.

But if you just sit and do nothing, nothing is exactly what will happen.

And SOB was built 15 years ago - so were 2000 model year Chevys, Hondas, and Toyotas. Cars have come a long way since and engineering has also come a long way as well.

Stagnant will get you no where.

And din't I mention thinking caps in the start of this thread?

This particular attitude drives me bonkers. No, not all change is good. To try and fail miserably has drastic consequences. From a park losing all kinds of money, lost opportunities for far better rides (how much time, money and space did/do Son of Beast, Hercules, the old Texas Giant, Mean Streak, Drachen Fire, etc. take up?), lost careers (Mr. David Focke comes immediately to mind), bored or unhappy guests to injuries, to a park merely being stuck with a bad ride/investment for years (Six Flags and Ninja now at SFOG, the Vekoma messes Deja Vu)...

Sometimes doing nothing or at least doing something else is a far better choice than a wrong-headed bad choice.

Final Thought: What would Kings Island look like today, and what would 2014's new addition be had Son of Beast never been built in Mason? What would NJFTP look like? Who would own Kings Island? Dare I say it?--Who would own Cedar Fair? I submit ALL these questions would have different answers had either Son of Beast not been built or had it actually been built to the design specifications without client cost cutting that greatly negatively affected its reliability, rideabilty, comfort, thrill factor and guest and park satisfaction.

Kings Island would not be the same place. It might be better. It might be worse.

The alternative ride was a re-creation of the Rye Aeroplane, for which Kings Island had purchased the blueprints. A ride that, by all accounts, was simply one of the best...ever.

Instead, innovation was selected. Risky choices were made. It is hard to say they benefited the park. Doing nothing would have been, in my opinion, a far, far better option than building the trouble prone, litigation causing, uncomfortable, maintenance nightmare, not even very thrilling, tallest, fastest and only looping wooden roller coaster on the planet. (Why do I hear Jeff Seibert saying those words?).

This is just my opinion but SOB was the best coaster at KI. Even more so when it still included the loop. Far more thrilling than the original Beast in my eyes. Take no offense but I believe that if Son of Beast was built today rather than 15 years ago you wouldn't have a trouble probe maintenance nightmare of a coaster. But to each his own.

[The Interpreter]

You would if you let Paramount Parks or its corporate successor cut costs and build it itself, firing the designer and the construction company.

[MadMaverick]

Seeing as Paramount no longer owns the park today I would take a guess in saying that Paramount would have nothing to do with it's construction.

[MadMaverick]

Sorry for the double post.

[The Interpreter]

Paramount Parks was merged into the corporate entity that owns Kings Island. The park is itself owned by Kings Island Company and operated by Cedar Fair Entertainment Company.

[MadMaverick]

It's just my opinion but I don't think the same mistakes would be made 15 years later under Cedar Fair ownership. Just saying. Coarse I could be wrong. We'll never know.

[jcgoble3]

I think what Terpy is trying to get at is that the original Son of Beast wouldn't have been a "trouble-prone maintenance nightmare of a coaster" in the first place if Paramount had let the original construction company build it to the designer's specifications. Instead, Paramount fired both of them and built it themselves without following the original design, cutting critical corners to reduce costs, which is why it was a "trouble-prone maintenance nightmare of a coaster".

[MadMaverick]

I'm not disagreeing with that.

[Coasterama]

^Think about what Paramount set in motion. Sure they seemed like bad choices at the time, but if Paramount hadn't done what they did, then we wouldn't have a shiny new Banshee getting ready to open in less than a month. But what you really have to ask yourself is, would you rather have Banshee, or a more reliable, safer Son of Beast?

[jcgoble3]

Probably option B, because I never got a chance to ride Son of Beast.

[The Interpreter]

You also didn't get to ride the Rye Aeroplane.

[MadMaverick]

Keeping in mind I have yet to ride Banshee so I can't say definitively but answering right now I would say a more reliable safer Son of Beast.

[McSalsa]

Hmm...in my opinion, which would I choose? Well, ranking them...

Rye Aeroplane>Safe & Correctly Built SOB>Banshee>Real & Poorly Built SOB

Based on pictures, old videos, and No Limits recreations however I have to put Rye Aeroplane at #1 over all other options. It looks like a fast-paced, wild, out-of-control-yet-safe wooden coaster which is right up my alley when it comes to my taste in coasters. A well built Son of Beast would have had awesome stats, and a 200'+ woodie that has the wood coaster edge without being too rough is just an awesome concept by itself, but the layout isn't the most inspired in the world (75% of the ride was, after all, helixes) hence why I only put it 2nd...though if we are talking a CCI-built SOB and the helixes are as forceful as Legend @ Holiday World's, that changes things. Banshee looks amazing, but sadly for it, I like wooden coasters over steel- no offense to Banshee, which does look like it will be an awesome coaster and still better than the real Son of Beast it "replaces"...

[TTD-120-420]

Is there an option C with a Maverick type ride?

[DBInternational]

Do you think KI would consider reclaiming the title of World's Tallest Wooden Coaster? It wouldn't necessarily have to be as extreme as SOB was, all they'd have to do is build it higher than 197 feet.

[DontWantToWait42mar0]

Maybe add a loop to blue Racer?

[MadMaverick]

Is there an option C with a Maverick type ride?

If so then I choose Maverick type ride.

[steveinphoenix]

I myself love woodies...and when I first heard about SOB in 1999 I was stoked about it....mainly because of the first drop....but the rest of it....ehh....not so much.....the loop attempt was pretty cool at the time......but I personally like HILLS, lot of up and down straight hills......that's where the fun and sheer excitement is for me.....helixes are just plain boring...of course that's just my own preference... I think another giant woodie would be great......with a builder of a much better reputation like GCI. But for the parks concern....wooden coasters are A LOT of maintenance compared to a steel coaster.....I think I read at one time like 3 times as much. That's quite a bit.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

First off, your assumption of GG coasters having high maintenance costs is wrong. It's actually quite the opposite when compared to other wood coasters with similar stats. Secondly, why would a small park invest heavily into a wood coaster if they know there are going to be "high maintenance costs?" Logic would tell you they would invest into a wood coaster that is the complete opposite. Going by your logic, large corporate parks would be the ones to invest in a GG coaster because they have more money to throw at it. Also, you can't compare CCI rides to GG.rides. There are/were different owners and different people making the decisions. In regards to the Timberliners not being used at HW, unless you know the whole story, which you don't, you really can't use that as an argument against the Timberliners. As for parks perception of them, I guess the perception is good considering more and more of the GG coasters have them now. The Timberliners are doing what they are advertised to do. I can promise you that

*Italicized for emphesis.

So how come Hades 360 bombed? I've heard pretty terrible reviews of it.

I think it comes down to the track design over trains. You can have the best wooden trains imaginable, but the way the track is designed is key. Woodies that are taller, mainly ones with higher curves taken at higher speeds tend not to do well. Wooden coaster structures (wood or steel) sway a lot with that combination of elements, creating rough spots. John Allen was a HUGE believer in this. That's why I'm pretty sure Timberliners wouldn't have saved Son of Beast and they'd probably fail on Voyage as well. Timberliners (nor Millennium Flyers for that matter) are not an instant cure for bad wooden track design. Pre-fabs like El Toro or special wooden track designs like Outlaw Run are exceptions.

Reviews from who? ACErs? Take their opinion with a grain of salt. Ask the track walkers & mechanics if the Timberliners make their job easier. Trains make all the difference in the world. Retrofit some Vekoma invert trains for a B&M Batman and tell me it's not about the trains.

[silver2005]

First off, your assumption of GG coasters having high maintenance costs is wrong. It's actually quite the opposite when compared to other wood coasters with similar stats. Secondly, why would a small park invest heavily into a wood coaster if they know there are going to be "high maintenance costs?" Logic would tell you they would invest into a wood coaster that is the complete opposite. Going by your logic, large corporate parks would be the ones to invest in a GG coaster because they have more money to throw at it. Also, you can't compare CCI rides to GG.rides. There are/were different owners and different people making the decisions. In regards to the Timberliners not being used at HW, unless you know the whole story, which you don't, you really can't use that as an argument against the Timberliners. As for parks perception of them, I guess the perception is good considering more and more of the GG coasters have them now. The Timberliners are doing what they are advertised to do. I can promise you that

*Italicized for emphesis.

So how come Hades 360 bombed? I've heard pretty terrible reviews of it.

I think it comes down to the track design over trains. You can have the best wooden trains imaginable, but the way the track is designed is key. Woodies that are taller, mainly ones with higher curves taken at higher speeds tend not to do well. Wooden coaster structures (wood or steel) sway a lot with that combination of elements, creating rough spots. John Allen was a HUGE believer in this. That's why I'm pretty sure Timberliners wouldn't have saved Son of Beast and they'd probably fail on Voyage as well. Timberliners (nor Millennium Flyers for that matter) are not an instant cure for bad wooden track design. Pre-fabs like El Toro or special wooden track designs like Outlaw Run are exceptions.

Reviews from who? ACErs? Take their opinion with a grain of salt. Ask the track walkers & mechanics if the Timberliners make their job easier. Trains make all the difference in the world. Retrofit some Vekoma invert trains for a B&M Batman and tell me it's not about the trains.

Actually, Hades 360 placed 168 out of 183 wooden coasters on the Mitch Hawker poll. I think that's as good an indication as any that its not as good as it was intended to be. Also, comparing switching out trains on a steel coaster in comparison to a wood coaster is a bit odd. Wood coaster structures have more 'life' to them and are affected by more elements than steel coaster- weather, trains, they sway more, etc. So of course switching trains on a steel coaster don't make much difference.

In reference to the Timberliners, they may do a lot of things that help alleviate maintenance, but they still have an impact on the track. They still weigh a few tons, which will still cause higher speedy turns to sway a lot and cause rough spots. That's what made rides like Son of Beast, the original Texas Giant, Mean Streak, and Rattler uncomfortable for most (I use 'for most' as some people do like those rides, I'm convinced a majority of people don't though). On something like Voyage, you have all those high speed highly banked curves which those trains would have the same effect. Before you bring up Beast, might I remind you that the only 2 drops over 100 ft are the ones coming off the chain lifts, the rest are on structures that aren't all that high off the ground. Even the helix is built pretty low, using a hillside to its advantage. Other than Hades 360, most of the Timberliner trains are being used on wooden coasters 50 ft or shorter.

[tuxedoman52]

Kings Island has the first roller coaster with six inversions, why not try for the first wood coaster with six inversions. I know it sounds terrible but whatever, I would ride it.

[tuxedoman52]

Maybe add a loop to blue Racer?

That's an idea!