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1 hour ago, IceePirate said:

Not sure about the capacity number, but I do know that both Kings Island and Kings Dominion only shipped with 3 trains each. The ride probably couldn't utilize 4 trains anyways without a train stopping on the midcourse frequently, which would detract from the ride. I doubt a 4th train would improve capacity all that much since capacity of FoF is limited by how often the cars can load/launch. I could see a 3rd train helping though since the station does sit empty a little bit of the time.

This is what I've heard from various folks over the years—not stating this is fact, just what I've heard from people with various levels of reliability—@KIghostguy, @Shaggy, @TombraiderTy probably know more. 

My understanding is that both Flight of Fear's ride block systems were designed to accommodate four trains. Clearly it never did and would've been a challenge, but I think theoretically—you could have had one train in the load station, one train in the "tunnel" between the load and unload stations, one train in the unload station, and the fourth train sitting on the safety brakes just outside of the unload station. I don't think, in that ideal operation, that a train would've had to sit at the midcourse regularly, but that would've required—the unload station to disembark guests rapidly and then quickly move that train along. Ultimately, a lot of that comes down to the main station loading and launching quickly—which even in the best of conditions takes awhile. Guests would've likely been sitting on the safety brake run for awhile (and then if things didn't move quickly, the midcourse could've stacked). Four trains would be hard to do. 

In the end it didn't matter because they only put three trains on. And I believe after an incident with wooden coaster skid brakes in the early 00's, Paramount adopted a policy of trains needing to have an additional set of brakes between them. I.E. If you look at the train sitting at The Beast, waiting behind the station—there's an extra pinch brake between it and the station. 

10 minutes ago, JCJTheHurricane said:

Based on what I've heard, the third train isn't used because the LIM's wouldn't have enough time to cool down.

I'm not sure if this is correct. Dominion ran three trains for years while Kings Island ran two. Not sure if it's still that way now. I do know that for a time, a few of us had looked at KD's ridership data and advocated for KI getting a third train (especially after Fast Lane debuted and was a mess with the "fast lanes" only being slightly less longer waits than the main queue). I don't recall the LIM's being an issue, but I do know that maintenance did prefer having the third train at the ready and being serviced during the season. Ultimately, our FOF never got its third train back. Also, at peak operation—Backlot moves trains much quicker (thought not with as many people), I think the LIMS can handle it. 

There were also operational changes over the years. If you remember the earliest days of FOF—the empty train entering the load station would come in with its restraints up and open. I believe at some point, that changed and if I recall correctly—the employee at unload needed to close the restraints and check them even if there weren't riders. The unload station train also can't depart until the station is totally void of guests, which originally I don't think was the case—guests just needed to be beyond a line. 

RANDOM, SLIGHTLY RELATED QUESTIONS:

@TombraiderTy, @Shaggy, @KIghostguy, do you all know about "The Bat Phone" from FoF's early days? Also, did any of you ever hear about SOB and Beast being designed for four trains? And in that vein: did SOB ever run three?

 

 

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Here are my pics from yesterday. Didnt take any professional camera up. Just with my S9+. Plus, was a little bumpy. Watermarked because some people. And these definitely are "exclusive". 

Why wait?

Anyone that does not work at the park or in the industry is the GP. 

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Flight of Fear was designed with four train operation in mind. I'm honestly not sure of specifics in the ride's train operations, but I know who to ask for more information. The Beast was indeed designed for four train operation and that's the sole reason why there's the brake shed after the first tunnel. A lot of people online say it never ran four trains because there were capacity issues. Richard Fussner, the park's loss preventions director at the time The Beast was built, told me it was because running four trains at one time were too heavy and causing too much stress on the track. The Beast has never ran more than three trains when it's been open to the public.

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Flight of Fear was designed with four train operation in mind. I'm honestly not sure of specifics in the ride's train operations, but I know who to ask. The Beast was also designed for four train operation and that's the sole reason why there's the brake shed after the first tunnel. A lot of people online say it never ran four trains because there were capacity issues. Richard Fussner, the park's loss preventions director at the time The Beast was built, told me it was because running four trains at one time were too heavy and causing too much stress on the track. The Beast has never run more than three trains when it's been open to the public.

and now it only runs two since the brake shed no longer counts as a block section...
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Maverick at CP has 6 trains, but with their size, dispatches allowing two trains in a station at a time its almost equivalent to 3 train operations if you think about it.

Also something Maverick, Fury, and Leviathan have in common is the pre break run between the stations and the lift hill which can help avoid stacking as well as the longer final breaks

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22 minutes ago, Marc3E said:


and now it only runs two since the brake shed no longer counts as a block section...

The Beast still runs three trains.  Yes, the brake shed is not a block section anymore, but they can park all three trains in the station and just outside the station. Now the top of the lifts are the block sections on the course.  Which is why the train on lift one will sometimes stop (it has to wait for the other train to clear lift two before it can depart from lift one).  Back before they redid The Beast`s brakes, they could only park two trains in the station due to the skid brakes, so it wasn`t uncommon to get stopped at the top of lift two.

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48 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

I'm not sure if this is correct. Dominion ran three trains for years while Kings Island ran two. Not sure if it's still that way now. I do know that for a time, a few of us had looked at KD's ridership data and advocated for KI getting a third train (especially after Fast Lane debuted and was a mess with the "fast lanes" only being slightly less longer waits than the main queue). I don't recall the LIM's being an issue, but I do know that maintenance did prefer having the third train at the ready and being serviced during the season. Ultimately, our FOF never got its third train back. Also, at peak operation—Backlot moves trains much quicker (thought not with as many people), I think the LIMS can handle it. 

There were also operational changes over the years. If you remember the earliest days of FOF—the empty train entering the load station would come in with its restraints up and open. I believe at some point, that changed and if I recall correctly—the employee at unload needed to close the restraints and check them even if there weren't riders. The unload station train also can't depart until the station is totally void of guests, which originally I don't think was the case—guests just needed to be beyond a line. 

This brings up some good points and now that I think about it, FOF probably does just run the two because of the maintenance reasons and it probably can handle three trains. One thing I would like to mention is that FOF at KI doesn't have to re lock the restraints at unload before sending it into the load station, at least not anymore, but OP's do have to wait for everyone to be beyond the exit gate to dispatch it out of unload.

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Not trying to be that guy, but we are getting a little off topic. I think we should create a thread specifically for train ops tbh.

yeah you’re right, I WANNA HEAR STUFF ABOUT ORION
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50 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Not trying to be that guy, but we are getting a little off topic. I think we should create a thread specifically for train ops tbh.

I understand where this desire comes from, but generally, things get off topic around here when there's nothing new to discuss. Maybe I've missed something, but there's not really anything new that's been revealed about Orion. And people are generally really good about reporting new stuff here when it happens. On-topic-ness is usually self-correcting. :)

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On 5/24/2020 at 9:21 PM, THE_BEASTmaster said:


Well how many trees do you see at a military base? That’s the theme it’s going for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you want to this to be taken literally as the kids would say, I would ask this... what base/post and what section of that installation? Plenty that I have been on or stationed at were heavy on the trees. 

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1 hour ago, Waltny said:

If you want to this to be taken literally as the kids would say, I would ask this... what base/post and what section of that installation? Plenty that I have been on or stationed at were heavy on the trees. 

This area isn’t large enough to plant a bunch of trees down the middle of it, and even if you could add them in its present state, it would cause lots of congestion in what’s sure to be a high-traffic area.

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This area isn’t large enough to plant a bunch of trees down the middle of it, and even if you could, it would cause lots of congestion in what’s sure to be a high-traffic area.

thank you, finally
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11 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

This area isn’t large enough to plant a bunch of trees down the middle of it, and even if you could add them in its present state, it would cause lots of congestion in what’s sure to be a high-traffic area.

I wasnt so much worried about the trees or lack of them in area 72 as I was about trees on military installations. 

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Ive looked at several pictures of orions station, and Im still a bit confused on the layout, will we be onboarding from the east or west side? if so, do we enter the effects shed before or after the ride? because it appears the entry way goes through the picture booth but that obviously wouldnt make any sense. As for the lack of trees in that area, I think once benches and tables are put in for the eating area, it will feel less empty

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16 minutes ago, BeastieFanatic said:

Ive looked at several pictures of orions station, and Im still a bit confused on the layout, will we be onboarding from the east or west side? if so, do we enter the effects shed before or after the ride? because it appears the entry way goes through the picture booth but that obviously wouldnt make any sense. As for the lack of trees in that area, I think once benches and tables are put in for the eating area, it will feel less empty

You’ll enter through Firehawk’s photo booth (it won’t be a photo booth anymore) and walk down stairs into the queue. The “prop building” is in the queue right before the stairs up to the station. The exit of the station connects to the main Area 72 midway and takes you past Orion’s photo booth, which is a new structure.

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7 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

You’ll enter through Firehawk’s photo booth (it won’t be a photo booth anymore) and walk down stairs into the queue. The “prop building” is in the queue right before the stairs up to the station. The exit of the station connects to the main Area 72 midway and takes you past Orion’s photo booth, which is a new structure.

thank you, this makes a lot more sense

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21 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

RANDOM, SLIGHTLY RELATED QUESTIONS:

@TombraiderTy, @Shaggy, @KIghostguy, do you all know about "The Bat Phone" from FoF's early days? Also, did any of you ever hear about SOB and Beast being designed for four trains? And in that vein: did SOB ever run three?

I don't know if I've heard about The Bat phone... I remember hearing about how FoF had to coordinate its launches with Drop Zone since they both required such a large power intake. And after the fire at FOF in 2014, they had to set-up a livestream of Drop Tower and concentrate all their launches to in-between Drop's cycles. Does that have anything to do with it?

Regarding SOB, I've frequently heard that it never ran three trains with the public. I believe it, but don't have any concrete evidence or anything.

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I wonder what this crane is doing here. Photo credit: legomaster, Fye coasters discord.
20200527_115508.jpg.826098d1580c0e23af9b0bf528dab4e2.jpg

probably just something to do with one of the trains... who knows...
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On 5/26/2020 at 1:44 PM, Gordon Bombay said:

This is what I've heard from various folks over the years—not stating this is fact, just what I've heard from people with various levels of reliability—@KIghostguy, @Shaggy, @TombraiderTy probably know more. 

My understanding is that both Flight of Fear's ride block systems were designed to accommodate four trains. Clearly it never did and would've been a challenge, but I think theoretically—you could have had one train in the load station, one train in the "tunnel" between the load and unload stations, one train in the unload station, and the fourth train sitting on the safety brakes just outside of the unload station. I don't think, in that ideal operation, that a train would've had to sit at the midcourse regularly, but that would've required—the unload station to disembark guests rapidly and then quickly move that train along. Ultimately, a lot of that comes down to the main station loading and launching quickly—which even in the best of conditions takes awhile. Guests would've likely been sitting on the safety brake run for awhile (and then if things didn't move quickly, the midcourse could've stacked). Four trains would be hard to do. 

In the end it didn't matter because they only put three trains on. And I believe after an incident with wooden coaster skid brakes in the early 00's, Paramount adopted a policy of trains needing to have an additional set of brakes between them. I.E. If you look at the train sitting at The Beast, waiting behind the station—there's an extra pinch brake between it and the station. 

I'm not sure if this is correct. Dominion ran three trains for years while Kings Island ran two. Not sure if it's still that way now. I do know that for a time, a few of us had looked at KD's ridership data and advocated for KI getting a third train (especially after Fast Lane debuted and was a mess with the "fast lanes" only being slightly less longer waits than the main queue). I don't recall the LIM's being an issue, but I do know that maintenance did prefer having the third train at the ready and being serviced during the season. Ultimately, our FOF never got its third train back. Also, at peak operation—Backlot moves trains much quicker (thought not with as many people), I think the LIMS can handle it. 

There were also operational changes over the years. If you remember the earliest days of FOF—the empty train entering the load station would come in with its restraints up and open. I believe at some point, that changed and if I recall correctly—the employee at unload needed to close the restraints and check them even if there weren't riders. The unload station train also can't depart until the station is totally void of guests, which originally I don't think was the case—guests just needed to be beyond a line. 

RANDOM, SLIGHTLY RELATED QUESTIONS:

@TombraiderTy, @Shaggy, @KIghostguy, do you all know about "The Bat Phone" from FoF's early days? Also, did any of you ever hear about SOB and Beast being designed for four trains? And in that vein: did SOB ever run three?

 

 

The initial hope was to run 4 trains, but that obviously never happened.  I can't speak to KD, but KI did in fact have 4 trains on site.  I believe the decision was made by the park upon testing, due to the length of the coaster and the brake/block set up.  Other things, including other KI coasters and how they were were operated from a safety standard, factored into it.  All 4 trains have eventually been used on the ride, just not simultaneously.  One train has not been usable since the early 2000's.

OL:FOF did run 3 trains for years. 

It opened late - with just single train operation.  It was mid-June before the public was allowed to ride.

The trains were shortened - during testing - from 6 cars to 5.  This was because it would valley at the lowest portion of the track prior to final brakes.

The rumors of a "Bat Phone" are true.  This came about when Drop Zone opened in 1998.  They both pulled from the same power grid.  I recall supervisors having to "call" before launches, but I'm not positive if it was true of every launch.

Part of the requirement when operating the unload side was that you had to drive from ready to unload, unlock restraints, open safety gate, eye the seats for left articles, raise all "down" restraints, replace any "ear buffers" on the OSTRs, clear room, close gate, then send train from unload to waiting. The unload op was under a time pressure because of the challenges of timing launches.

BTW, I was on crew in 1998, but to verify, I asked some of the Rides Managers at the time of whom I am still friends.  

That's the info I feel I can share.

As far as SOB - I only recall it running 2 trains.  It was designed to operate 3 not 4 afaik.  Beast was designed for 4 but never operated publicly as such.

 

 

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From what I remember hearing, 4 train beast actually lowered capacity since the trains would stop at the top of the lifts while waiting for the next block to clear.

To be honest, I kinda want to work for KI again as a ride operator this time, but I would take a sizeable pay cut. Decisions decisions lol

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Something about Orion that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned- I don't see any gates in the station to separate each row. I would imagine that they would be installed by now if they are in the design? Maybe we will be getting a preshow in the quonset hut, where rows will be assigned?

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4 minutes ago, diamondhawk said:

Something about Orion that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned- I don't see any gates in the station to separate each row. I would imagine that they would be installed by now if they are in the design? Maybe we will be getting a preshow in the quonset hut, where rows will be assigned?

image.png

Gates are there - it's just a wide loading platform.

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7 hours ago, Marc3E said:


probably just something to do with one of the trains... who knows...

They had a basket up underneath the lift hill working about halfway up.  Wonder what they could be adjusting or fixing there, especially that they couldn't access whatever it was from the lift stairs.

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Glad to see Kings Island share a clip related to Orion's station.  I'm also glad they have not shared any POV videos or footage of anyone riding.  It would just be so cruel right now. 

The info about Flight of Fear and Drop Tower sharing power is so interesting.  I would not have pegged Drop Tower as a power hog considering it is a fairly slow lift to the top.  I suppose the gondola is pretty heavy and it is a vertical lift.

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