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Does the Banshee rattle bother you?


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13 hours ago, RayFields said:

Below is the best post I have found that accurately describes why B&M coasters sometimes exhibit a "rattle"...Personally I don't find Diamnodback's rattle to be excessive and I think Banshee's rattles is heavily accentuated by the restraints. If Cedar Fair wanted to fix these rattling issues on these or any of their B&M coasters then they'd simply have to increase the size and stability of the footers for said rides

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Here's the post

The rattle as I understand it is a shimmy in the train during high G movements on a B&M.

During high G on some of the B&Ms the train will get a shimmy to it which is a side to side motion as you are moving forward. It has a tendency to rattle the train giving it the B&M rattle name. The train will shimmy so much that it actually makes the train rattle.

Cause... The cause of this has to do with the footings that the coaster sits on top of. When the footings area not installed correctly or are not large enough they will move a little as the train goes over that section of track. The movement may only be millimeters but its enough to reverberate up to the train that is in high G. Partly you have to remember you have a 50,000 pound train amplified by 3 G making the applied force in the the track and structure over 150,000 pounds. Any movement in the footings is sent back to the train.

The most notable one I have ridden is Goliath at SFOG. On the first and second drop at the bottom you will get the shimmy. During one of the tours I did we were standing under the coaster and noticed that the footing and ground moved as the train went by. That movement is what causes the train to rattle.

On Fury 325 I asked that question about footings. ON Fury, half of the rides footings are connected deep in the ground to bed rock. A hard layer of ground usually deep in the ground that is more or less solid rock. You connect the footings to it, then to the support, to the track. The problem area that could effect Fury is on the out run near the tunnel. That part is not on bed rock. But the park feels they built large enough footings so that it wont be a problem. So far Fury has no real rattle so it has stayed stiff...

What causes the footings to move over time. Several things can cause it.

  1. Not large enough or deep enough footings.

  2. The constant downward force of the train each time it passes.

  3. Bad ground around the footings where the dirt can compress under the footings.

  4. Wet and dry seasons or if you are in a frost line area where the ground can freeze moving the footing

More or less the rattle is a shimmy in the train, mostly caused by bad footings or bad ground conditions. Can it be fixed, Sure. Dig up the footings and increase the size or better ground. Will items like this be fixed, typically not as the parks arent going to spend the money until it starts to do damage to fast to trains or track.


 

I rode Banshee twice today. It seems to me the rattle is getting slowly worse. As a structural engineer, I do not believe the foundations are primarily at fault for the B&M rattle. If successive coaster builds at Kings Island had foundation issues (because of weak or compressible soil at the park) these issues would be considered by the structural engineer designing the foundations for the future coaster. A significant amount of site exploratory and office design work is involved in foundation design. However, the cost of a substructure is typically small compared to the cost of its superstructure. So, why cut a few $100K on foundations, at the expense of ride quality on a $24M ride? Same applies to Orion at $30M. If a foundation needs repair, it does not necessarily need to be dug up. There are many less intrusive and more cost-effective repair methods.

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Next time you ride Diamondback in an outside seat, look down at the wheel bogey on that car directly in front of you. During an airtime hill, that thing is shaking like crazy, leading me to believe the wheels have something to do with it. If you stand under DB's lift and watch a train go back, the up stops don't spin as they aren't connected to the track unless in a moment of g-forces less than 1.

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7 hours ago, NegativeGs said:

I rode Banshee twice today. It seems to me the rattle is getting slowly worse. As a structural engineer, I do not believe the foundations are primarily at fault for the B&M rattle. If successive coaster builds at Kings Island had foundation issues (because of weak or compressible soil at the park) these issues would be considered by the structural engineer designing the foundations for the future coaster. A significant amount of site exploratory and office design work is involved in foundation design. However, the cost of a substructure is typically small compared to the cost of its superstructure. So, why cut a few $100K on foundations, at the expense of ride quality on a $24M ride? Same applies to Orion at $30M. If a foundation needs repair, it does not necessarily need to be dug up. There are many less intrusive and more cost-effective repair methods.

Good points but there is a possibility that the rattle/roughness of the previous 2 B&M's built in the park are/were not considered excessive by B&M. They may feel the ride quality lies within permissible/acceptable levels and not feel the need to research or change anything for successive coasters built by them. As you said the Banshee rattle is slowly getting worse and I'd be surprised if B&M is even aware of the problem. Seems like these problems should be addressed as soon as they manifest and not be allowed to develop over years. I do believe that these "rattles" are indeed engineering faults by B&M whether it be the footers, trains, wheels, track profiling etc. To err is human

I also believe that footers not being large enough or not installed deep enough to soil with good bearing capacity could play a role in the "rattle" at least as a contributing cause. You can see the footers and ground move on some of the B&M's where the actual rattle's take place and not having a sturdy base is a logical cause. I also do think that they would cut $100k on foundations if they felt the ride quality was already within acceptable levels so why spend another $100k if the ride quality is "fine" as it is

Be nice if B&M sent people around to all their coasters that have these problems and addressed them. Parks are only going to lose money when people don't want to ride certain rides due to their roughness

 

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8 minutes ago, RayFields said:

Be nice if B&M sent people around to all their coasters that have these problems and addressed them. Parks are only going to lose money when people don't want to ride certain rides due to their roughness

 

I'm sure B&M receives rider and other date from the parks for their rides, and they would absolutely hear from the park if the park felt an issue with one of their rides was causing decreased ridership.  I'm of the opinion that most of the general public hardly notices the rattles that enthusiasts complain about.  From my perspective, it would be nice if they could get rid of the rattles, but it doesn't deter me from riding anything.  As you said, B&M has determined the ride quality is acceptable, and the park seems to agree.  So from B&M's perspective, it becomes a matter of their reputation within the enthusiast community.  I'm sure they'd prefer to not have the rattle tied to their reputation with enthusiasts, but how much money/resources are they going to invest?  I wouldn't hold my breath on anything changing.

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9 hours ago, NegativeGs said:

I rode Banshee twice today. It seems to me the rattle is getting slowly worse. As a structural engineer, I do not believe the foundations are primarily at fault for the B&M rattle. If successive coaster builds at Kings Island had foundation issues (because of weak or compressible soil at the park) these issues would be considered by the structural engineer designing the foundations for the future coaster. A significant amount of site exploratory and office design work is involved in foundation design. However, the cost of a substructure is typically small compared to the cost of its superstructure. So, why cut a few $100K on foundations, at the expense of ride quality on a $24M ride? Same applies to Orion at $30M. If a foundation needs repair, it does not necessarily need to be dug up. There are many less intrusive and more cost-effective repair methods.

3 minutes ago, wabashcr said:

I'm sure B&M receives rider and other date from the parks for their rides, and they would absolutely hear from the park if the park felt an issue with one of their rides was causing decreased ridership.  I'm of the opinion that most of the general public hardly notices the rattles that enthusiasts complain about.  From my perspective, it would be nice if they could get rid of the rattles, but it doesn't deter me from riding anything.  As you said, B&M has determined the ride quality is acceptable, and the park seems to agree.  So from B&M's perspective, it becomes a matter of their reputation within the enthusiast community.  I'm sure they'd prefer to not have the rattle tied to their reputation with enthusiasts, but how much money/resources are they going to invest?  I wouldn't hold my breath on anything changing.

Very true but once some people start developing headaches and are less than enthused about riding a 6 year old coaster (due to discomfiture) then maybe the problem should be looked into. For the price that these coasters cost I don't believe this an outrageous think to ask.

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3 minutes ago, IceePirate said:

On a side note, why does it seem that B&M is the only manufacturer that features a rattle? There's plenty of other older coasters that are just fine. Could it be that B&Ms supports aren't as good as they could be?

That's a question for Clermont steel fabricators

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50 minutes ago, IceePirate said:

On a side note, why does it seem that B&M is the only manufacturer that features a rattle? There's plenty of other older coasters that are just fine. Could it be that B&Ms supports aren't as good as they could be?

This is far from the truth. Plenty of coasters from other manufacturers have rattles / vibrations. Vortex for example had a noticeable vibration. I’m guessing B&M rattles are more noticeable due to how smooth and comfortable the restraints are. Also Clermont steel produces rollercoaster track just fine, the steel fabrication is likely not the issue.

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I can think of some other relatively new coasters that also feature rattles. Some non-B&M’s that come to mind include Steel Curtain, Copperhead Strike, Hyperion, and Red Force (this one is really bad). B&M is definitely not the only manufacturer with some rattling on their coasters.

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1 hour ago, RayFields said:

Very true but once some people start developing headaches and are less than enthused about riding a 6 year old coaster (due to discomfiture) then maybe the problem should be looked into. For the price that these coasters cost I don't believe this an outrageous think to ask.

I'm sure the park keeps a close eye on ridership metrics, and would be in communication with B&M if they felt this was an issue.  I don't think the park will view it as a problem until there's a substantial drop in riders, that can't be attributed to things like opening new coasters.  I don't disagree with your point at all.  I just don't think the park sees this as a problem.  And as long as they're happy, B&M is happy.  

Let's put it this way, the B&M rattle isn't exactly a new phenomenon.  There was certainly enough data available with Banshee and Diamondback (not to mention B&Ms at other CF parks) before they designed and built Orion.  If KI /CF felt the rattle was going to result in lower ridership, or hurt the long term return on their investment, surely they would have brought that up with B&M early in the design phase.  So they either don't view it as a problem, or at least not a big enough one to justify the costs to fix.  And I think that points to this being more of an issue with enthusiasts, and not so much the general public.  

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I remember a conversation I had a few years ago about the B&M rattle and the other person pointed out something I had not considered.  Wheels wear down over time, which is pretty obvious.  But what I did not know is that B&M does not include adjustment methods on the wheel assembly to tighten up the gap which opens up.  Instead they assume their customers will replace the wheels.

Some other manufacturers do have a bolt, slide, rubber damper, etc, which can be adjusted to close the gap so that all of the wheels are directly on the track. 

I have assumed possibly wrongly the B&M rattle is the train basically rocking a little bit, and if you watch the upstop on Banshee you can see it appears to bounce up and down and you can definitely see a gap open between it and the track.

I have definitely noticed differences in the rattle on B&M coasters between different trains on the same day which suggests at least to an extent the issue is on the train.  My assumption is also the rattle would largely go away temperately if the park replaced the wheels more frequently, but this is very costly so I understand why they do not.  In fairness I am also not certain if replacing the wheels would actually fix the issue.

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35 minutes ago, wabashcr said:

I'm sure the park keeps a close eye on ridership metrics, and would be in communication with B&M if they felt this was an issue.  I don't think the park will view it as a problem until there's a substantial drop in riders, that can't be attributed to things like opening new coasters.  I don't disagree with your point at all.  I just don't think the park sees this as a problem.  And as long as they're happy, B&M is happy.  

Let's put it this way, the B&M rattle isn't exactly a new phenomenon.  There was certainly enough data available with Banshee and Diamondback (not to mention B&Ms at other CF parks) before they designed and built Orion.  If KI /CF felt the rattle was going to result in lower ridership, or hurt the long term return on their investment, surely they would have brought that up with B&M early in the design phase.  So they either don't view it as a problem, or at least not a big enough one to justify the costs to fix.  And I think that points to this being more of an issue with enthusiasts, and not so much the general public.  

Sounds about right...

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37 minutes ago, Kenban said:

I remember a conversation I had a few years ago about the B&M rattle and the other person pointed out something I had not considered.  Wheels wear down over time, which is pretty obvious.  But what I did not know is that B&M does not include adjustment methods on the wheel assembly to tighten up the gap which opens up.  Instead they assume their customers will replace the wheels.

Some other manufacturers do have a bolt, slide, rubber damper, etc, which can be adjusted to close the gap so that all of the wheels are directly on the track. 

I have assumed possibly wrongly the B&M rattle is the train basically rocking a little bit, and if you watch the upstop on Banshee you can see it appears to bounce up and down and you can definitely see a gap open between it and the track.

I have definitely noticed differences in the rattle on B&M coasters between different trains on the same day which suggests at least to an extent the issue is on the train.  My assumption is also the rattle would largely go away temperately if the park replaced the wheels more frequently, but this is very costly so I understand why they do not.  In fairness I am also not certain if replacing the wheels would actually fix the issue.

Good points.. Wheels on the trains wear down at different rates and you if you can't adjust each individual wheel then you have a problem

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3 hours ago, RayFields said:

Good points but there is a possibility that the rattle/roughness of the previous 2 B&M's built in the park are/were not considered excessive by B&M. They may feel the ride quality lies within permissible/acceptable levels and not feel the need to research or change anything for successive coasters built by them. As you said the Banshee rattle is slowly getting worse and I'd be surprised if B&M is even aware of the problem. Seems like these problems should be addressed as soon as they manifest and not be allowed to develop over years. I do believe that these "rattles" are indeed engineering faults by B&M whether it be the footers, trains, wheels, track profiling etc. To err is human

I also believe that footers not being large enough or not installed deep enough to soil with good bearing capacity could play a role in the "rattle" at least as a contributing cause. You can see the footers and ground move on some of the B&M's where the actual rattle's take place and not having a sturdy base is a logical cause. I also do think that they would cut $100k on foundations if they felt the ride quality was already within acceptable levels so why spend another $100k if the ride quality is "fine" as it is

Be nice if B&M sent people around to all their coasters that have these problems and addressed them. Parks are only going to lose money when people don't want to ride certain rides due to their roughness

 

Another thing to consider is that B&M probably does not design the foundations, but rather they performance specify loads that must be resisted and anchor bolt patterns. Kings Island (or a General Contractor working for Kings Island) would then work with a local subcontractor to design and install the foundations, while the steel work of the coaster is being fabricated. If the subcontractor did not take foundation settlement into account in the design, then yes significant long-term differential settlement of the track could cause the 'rattle'.

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2 hours ago, coaster sally said:

That's a question for Clermont steel fabricators

I doubt Clermont Steel Fabricators would know the answer. Clermont fabricates and delivers the steel work specified by B&M. Clermont is not responsible for the design.

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8 minutes ago, NegativeGs said:

Another thing to consider is that B&M probably does not design the foundations, but rather they performance specify loads that must be resisted and anchor bolt patterns. Kings Island (or a General Contractor working for Kings Island) would then work with a local subcontractor to design and install the foundations, while the steel work of the coaster is being fabricated. If the subcontractor did not take foundation settlement into account in the design, then yes significant long-term differential settlement of the track could cause the 'rattle'.

Yes long-term differential settlement looks to be a likely culprit possibly in conjunction with other factors like the varying wheel gaps caused by the non adjustable wheels. Need to tighten up them tolerances

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I've seen many rollercoaster supports/structures move under forces induced by the trains going by-that's just the nature of the design.  At amusement parks I tend to look for high force sections of rides and purposely watch static members intently to see how much motion is visible under these loads.

But to attribute a rattle, which is honestly quite audible and felt on the train to these external movements doesn't make much sense to my engineering mind.  The frequency differences between the two is significant. The slower moving visible motions seen external on the ride are very different than the jarring rattles on the ride.  

Seeing the design of the wheels around the track (basically a captivated rolling cage) and reading of others mentioning the lack of adjustments, makes me think there are clearance issues which as tolerances open up (due to wheel wear) become apparent to the riders. 

If you've ever followed a vehicle on the road with bad shocks you can visually see a bouncing wheel against the road surface.  Shocks provide a damping force against the spring suspension, which is there to accommodate road surface imperfections and cushions what the sidewall if the rubber wheel couldn't accommodate.  Long winded to say there is a lot that goes into the design of a smooth 'ride's in a vehicle. 

I think some manufacturers have figured this out better than others on rollercoasters. 

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I think the reason why this discussion has taken new life is due to the fact that Vortex was removed.

Up until 2009, Vortex was considered smooth by many, however that impression changed once Diamondback was installed.

I think with Vortex’s removal, many are forgetting how Vortex was and thinking the previously viewed smooth coasters as rough. 

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1 hour ago, Maddog said:

I've seen many rollercoaster supports/structures move under forces induced by the trains going by-that's just the nature of the design.  At amusement parks I tend to look for high force sections of rides and purposely watch static members intently to see how much motion is visible under these loads.

But to attribute a rattle, which is honestly quite audible and felt on the train to these external movements doesn't make much sense to my engineering mind.  The frequency differences between the two is significant. The slower moving visible motions seen external on the ride are very different than the jarring rattles on the ride.  

Seeing the design of the wheels around the track (basically a captivated rolling cage) and reading of others mentioning the lack of adjustments, makes me think there are clearance issues which as tolerances open up (due to wheel wear) become apparent to the riders. 

If you've ever followed a vehicle on the road with bad shocks you can visually see a bouncing wheel against the road surface.  Shocks provide a damping force against the spring suspension, which is there to accommodate road surface imperfections and cushions what the sidewall if the rubber wheel couldn't accommodate.  Long winded to say there is a lot that goes into the design of a smooth 'ride's in a vehicle. 

I think some manufacturers have figured this out better than others on rollercoasters. 

I wonder if the natural frequency of vibration of certain lengths of track interact with the bogies of the train, which in turn causes the rattle? B&M's track and support structures appear slender. This gives a very aesthetic appearance but can reduce the natural frequency of the track structure. Depending upon the amplitude of vibration of the track, this could cause loose wheel bearings to vibrate as energy is dissipated. Imagine pushing a shopping cart with a bad wheel, it is often noisy and can cause the cart to vibrate.

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5 hours ago, NegativeGs said:

I wonder if the natural frequency of vibration of certain lengths of track interact with the bogies of the train, which in turn causes the rattle? B&M's track and support structures appear slender. This gives a very aesthetic appearance but can reduce the natural frequency of the track structure. Depending upon the amplitude of vibration of the track, this could cause loose wheel bearings to vibrate as energy is dissipated. Imagine pushing a shopping cart with a bad wheel, it is often noisy and can cause the cart to vibrate.

I am not entirely certain where the Banshee rattle is but are the same forces (positive G's or whatever) involved as to where it happens on Diamondback?  The bottom of the drop out of the hammer turn is painful for me.  I typically ride the back row but I now ride middle to front of the train where the rattle isn't as impactful.  Strangely, I don't notice on any other area of Diamondback but that one point.  I have referred to it as a more of a quick jackhammer.  It is good for a flash headache, though.  

Regarding Vortex, the ride quality went downhill probably in the early 2000's (prior to 2009).  It just grew much rougher on some of the transitions, the turn into the brake run, and then the drop out of the brakes and into the corkscrews.  It was like owning a car that used to be smooth but whose shocks had completely given out.  Vortex used to be smooth (like most newer steel coasters) and it went downhill once it was approaching 20 years old.  

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54 minutes ago, Skibum said:

I am not entirely certain where the Banshee rattle is but are the same forces (positive G's or whatever) involved as to where it happens on Diamondback?  The bottom of the drop out of the hammer turn is painful for me.  I typically ride the back row but I now ride middle to front of the train where the rattle isn't as impactful.  Strangely, I don't notice on any other area of Diamondback but that one point.  I have referred to it as a more of a quick jackhammer.  It is good for a flash headache, though.  

Regarding Vortex, the ride quality went downhill probably in the early 2000's (prior to 2009).  It just grew much rougher on some of the transitions, the turn into the brake run, and then the drop out of the brakes and into the corkscrews.  It was like owning a car that used to be smooth but whose shocks had completely given out.  Vortex used to be smooth (like most newer steel coasters) and it went downhill once it was approaching 20 years old.  

As the rattle relates to Banshee, I just re-watched this 2016 POV:

Even in this 2016 POV, you can see the camera rattles side to side on the positive g-force valleys. As I watch the POV, the frequency of the rattle is in tune with the rattle I experienced yesterday. The amplitude of the 2016 POV rattle does however appear less than I experienced yesterday. Note from the POV that in the valleys, the lengths of track between support frames are short and the support frames are also short. Based on inspection, the track structure in the valleys appears very stiff and will vibrate at a high frequency, which is desirable. Yet, it is in the valleys that the rattle occurs - like @Skibum compared to a jackhammer. So, either the foundations are bad (but as I’ve said before, I don’t believe they are) or the bogies of the trains are causing the rattle. Or is it something else?

 

 

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1 hour ago, NegativeGs said:

As the rattle relates to Banshee, I just re-watched this 2016 POV:

Even in this 2016 POV, you can see the camera rattles side to side on the positive g-force valleys. As I watch the POV, the frequency of the rattle is in tune with the rattle I experienced yesterday. The amplitude of the 2016 POV rattle does however appear less than I experienced yesterday. Note from the POV that in the valleys, the lengths of track between support frames are short and the support frames are also short. Based on inspection, the track structure in the valleys appears very stiff and will vibrate at a high frequency, which is desirable. Yet, it is in the valleys that the rattle occurs - like @Skibum compared to a jackhammer. So, either the foundations are bad (but as I’ve said before, I don’t believe they are) or the bogies of the trains are causing the rattle. Or is it something else?

 

 

I have been under the impression that it is the trains on Banshee that cause the rattle. When B&M designed Banshee, they opened for redesigned lighter inverted trains instead of their heavier old-school inverted trains. Since these trains are much lighter, they are not as snug against the track, and the gap between the wheels causes rattling. On Diamondback and Orion, the rattle is very slight and can be found on many other coasters of the same type, so I think those trains are fine. The trains on Banshee, however, are only featured on Banshee and on no other inverts, so this makes sense why Banshee has a rattle unlike any other B&M invert. I have always wondered what Banshee would be like if it had the old-school B&M invert trains. I think it could potentially be a lot smoother, faster with the added weight, and more forceful with the added speed. I have also wondered if B&M had originally anticipated putting their old invert trains on Banshee or that the ones they put on would run faster because they initially put a trim break in the original layout, but it was later removed because it wasn’t needed. Just look at the original animated POV, Banshee absolutely hauls through the layout!

 

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19 hours ago, Stitch said:

The slight bumps or rattles experienced on Banshee don't bother me. The restraints that close too tight and get tighter mid ride, do however.

Exactly, That's why changing the restraints would probably make the ride much more enjoyable and then the rattle would be less of a problem

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21 hours ago, Maddog said:

I've seen many rollercoaster supports/structures move under forces induced by the trains going by-that's just the nature of the design.  At amusement parks I tend to look for high force sections of rides and purposely watch static members intently to see how much motion is visible under these loads.

But to attribute a rattle, which is honestly quite audible and felt on the train to these external movements doesn't make much sense to my engineering mind.  The frequency differences between the two is significant. The slower moving visible motions seen external on the ride are very different than the jarring rattles on the ride.  

Seeing the design of the wheels around the track (basically a captivated rolling cage) and reading of others mentioning the lack of adjustments, makes me think there are clearance issues which as tolerances open up (due to wheel wear) become apparent to the riders. 

If you've ever followed a vehicle on the road with bad shocks you can visually see a bouncing wheel against the road surface.  Shocks provide a damping force against the spring suspension, which is there to accommodate road surface imperfections and cushions what the sidewall if the rubber wheel couldn't accommodate.  Long winded to say there is a lot that goes into the design of a smooth 'ride's in a vehicle. 

I think some manufacturers have figured this out better than others on rollercoasters. 

Yes that makes sense. My only question is why does the "rattle" on some of these coasters get worse over time? For instance Fury325 was very smooth for the first few years and then started developing a rattle. Same thing with Banshee. Seems the rattle gets worse over time and they change wheels frequently. If it was the wheels then every time new wheels are put on then the ride should be exactly as smooth as it was on day 1. I don't believe this is the case. Put on all new wheels take a ride and there should be no rattle or at least it should match the ride from Day 1

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20 hours ago, NegativeGs said:

I wonder if the natural frequency of vibration of certain lengths of track interact with the bogies of the train, which in turn causes the rattle? B&M's track and support structures appear slender. This gives a very aesthetic appearance but can reduce the natural frequency of the track structure. Depending upon the amplitude of vibration of the track, this could cause loose wheel bearings to vibrate as energy is dissipated. Imagine pushing a shopping cart with a bad wheel, it is often noisy and can cause the cart to vibrate.

That makes sense also.  If their is long-term differential settlement then the slender track/support structures may not be sturdy enough to prevent the wheels from vibrating (as the foundation is slowly settling/weakening and is less able to absorb energy) Coasters from manufactures that use beefier track/support structures wouldn't exhibit this vibrating wheel effect AS MUCH as the foundation settlement occurs over time......

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On 7/17/2020 at 11:06 AM, FUN&ONLY! said:

I can think of some other relatively new coasters that also feature rattles. Some non-B&M’s that come to mind include Steel Curtain, Copperhead Strike, Hyperion, and Red Force (this one is really bad). B&M is definitely not the only manufacturer with some rattling on their coasters.

I rode Steel Curtain last fall and near the back it isn't smooth like it should be for a new ride.

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