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SonofBaconator

Possibility of a 200ft+ Wooden Coaster

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I said I'd be back after the "Giga Speculation Thread"B)

It seems like RMC is a likely candidate for one of our next BIG coasters down the road. Our last 200ft wooden, however, didn't do so well.

Thoughts? I'll give my opinions later on once this thread picks up.

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I say likely because there is no timetable tied to options. Am i confident we will get one next? No. Am I confident by 2028 we will have one? Yes. I could really see either a Dive or RMC be our next coaster.

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I’ll pass. Our last 200+ foot wooden coaster was a problem child from the start. They removed the loop to make it better and it made it worse.

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I would like to see a 250 foot RMC come to the park so yes. I hope we do see a Woodie over 200 feet.

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I think its important to remember that Son of Beast, given how obviously poorly built it was, was an aberration among aberrations when it comes to "failed" rides of the past couple decades.

Everything that could have gone went wrong and then some, throughout the entirety of the devolepment, planning, and construction of the ride.

The chances of a disaster as bad as that one ever happening again at a major park, so as long as the right people and firms are overseeing the project, is basically zero. Its for this reason why I for one am not against the idea of another installation into The Beast anthology as others seem to be.

When you really think about it. Failed rides in general rarely happen anymore. Citing things like The Chiller at NJFTP, Hypersonic, Tomb Raider, Son of Beast, all of which occured circa the late-90s-mid 2000 ish.  The only very recent "failure" (and by failure, lasting less than a decade) that comes to mind would be Shoot the Rapids. Perhaps ringracer as well.

Simply put, I don't believe the baggage left by the last attempt at a 200 ft wood coaster should deter the park from trying again. RCCA has been out of business and for good reason. I believe that with the expertise and cuttingedge tech of RMC (or Intamin) a 200 ft woodie is perfectly feasible. Wildfire at Kolmarden is 183 ft for petes sake. Is that 17 extra feet really out of the question?

Zadra, the 206 ft hybrid I box that just opened in Poland, is being marketed (albeit falsely so) as the "tallest wood coaster" by Energylandia.

 

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I do think some park will eventually build a 200-foot wooden coaster again, but not with the traditional hand-cut track rides like The Beast, Mystic Timbers, etc. use. Even had it been properly built, Son of Beast would have become rough very quickly anyway simply due to the fact traditional wooden track starts to wear out noticeably faster on rides beyond 125 feet, especially when you go over 200. The 159-foot tall Voyage at Holiday World needs extreme amounts of care and maintenance to keep running well, and most parks won't work as hard as Holiday World does just to maintain 1 ride like that.

However, in the years since Son of Beast's failure, new wooden track styles- laser cut prefab track and RMC's topper track- have emerged, and both of these seem like they could handle a 200+ foot tall coaster. It has been a while since Intamin has made a woodie though, so I would imagine if some park did decide to do a 200-foot woodie in the 2020s, it would likely be a RMC with topper track. Topper Track RMCs may not be "true" wood coasters, but they do market them as such, and I do think a 200+ foot version is possible.

But I am not 100% sure if Kings Island will be the park that builds one of these first. I expect Orion will be the newest coaster at Kings Island for a good while, since it is a $30 million dollar ride, and there are usually at least 5-year gaps between rides (possibly with a smaller cheaper ride in between) that expensive these days unless a park is really trying to build itself up like Carowinds. And Cedar Point is probably going to push Steel Vengeance well into the 2020's, and won't want to build something seen as "similar" at Kings Island until the hype for that fully wears of, so Kings Island might still get something different (like a B&M Dive if Valravn hype has worn off or Mack Multi-Launch, or even something from Gerstlauer or something) as its next big coaster.

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If I had my way a 200+ foot RMC or an Intamin blitz would be our next coaster. However, the chances of CF working with Intamin again are practically zero due to a poor track record of Intamin and CF. However, I do think we'll be looking at a 3-7 year gap between Orion and what comes next though. 

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Here are some thoughts I have

For:

  • Cedar Fair has been loading Kings Island up with world class coasters since its acquisition of the park. We have now have some of the best B&Ms and ,in my opinion, the best GCI out there. Why not add another world class coaster in the form of an RMC woodie?
  • RMC's are affordable for the type of rides they produce.
  • Kings Island has one of the best, if not the best, wooden coaster collections in the world so why not add to it?

Against

  • Son of Beast. Its not an issue of whether RMC could deliver a world class product that's reliable; they could. But if KI builds a wooden coaster that breaks 200ft, people are immediately going to be reminded of Son of Beast and all the issues it had. Though Son of Beast is long gone, the ride is still known as the park's greatest failure.
  • Land. Kings Island isn't short on land, but it would be hard to build a 200ft+ coaster without expanding outward, removing existing attractions, or getting super creative with the layout. Hypothetically, if they used the old Son of Beast station, they would have to thread the track between Banshee and The Bat or demolish Timberwolf, and clear out a lot of Action Zone land. Area 72 would be a good location but I feel like that area would get super congested with 3 coasters in an area that's known as a dead end.
  • Might not be the best move. Orion and Mystic Timbers are proof that the park focuses more on the GP than it does the enthusiasts. Not to say that they don't care about the enthusiasts, but they're not the target audience. If KI were to build a massive wooden coaster, it would have to be something the GP would want/would be willing to ride. I don't think we'd get anything along the lines of a wooden Steel Vengeance.
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I think we could get something along the lines of Goliath at Six Flags Great America!

Also, I think they could take out Congo Falls/Timberwolf for this. In fact right next to The Bat's station there is a drop off there and they could use that to their advantage and make the drop bigger than the height. Another plus to you could get a nice view of the drop from The Bat's exit.

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I would like to see an 200+ Intamin prefab. I hear nothing by great things about El Toro. I'm sure Intamin would be willing to do that on a larger scale and have it be glorious! I mean it only have to be 19 feet taller then El Toro haha

If not that then a ground up 200+ RMC Topper Track / Ibox would be amazing as well.

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I know this is a probably going to be a rather unpopular opinion, but I don’t think Kings Island should get an RMC Hybrid or an RMC Wooden Coaster. As more an more of these coasters get built, they all start to feel the same in my opinion. They all have the same elements and similar forces, and they are all very similar to one another, the one exception being Lightning Rod. RMC said in an IAPPA interview that they want to do more ground up Hybrid coasters instead of wooden coasters, and I don’t see Kings Island getting a ground-up hybrid when Steel Vengeance is in the same state. Ours would almost certainly have to be worse than Cedar Point’s or people would come to Kings Island instead. Also, because all RMC’s have the same elements and the same general feel these days (again, in my opinion), people would think our RMC is too similar to Steel Vengeance which is three hours away. I do, however, like the idea of a 200-foot record-breaking wooden coaster, but I think they should go with a different manufacturer. Something like an Intamin pre-fab would be amazing as there is only one in the United States and none of these have been built in over a decade, so Intamin could easily have new innovations to put on a new ride. In my option, however, I would absolutely love to have a new GCI as I absolutely love Mystic Timbers among others. They are smooth, fast-paced, and intense. Some may say there are not capable of building a 200-foot wooden rollercoaster, but GCI has had some really cool innovations lately which includes their all-new train design to allow for tighter transitions and the first-ever ejector airtime on GCI’s as if there was not any already. These new trains can also handle inversions and launches, and GCI has models with these elements incorporated. It will be something different because instead of parks going back and forth to see who has the best RMC, Kings Island can work with GCI and do their own thing. I attached a picture of the latest dueling GCI model and an existing  large-scale GCI coaster in China which is their largest ever.

Also, for all we know, Cedar Fair may never work with RMC again, or at least not anytime soon because the last three coasters they added in 2018 all experienced major problems and downtime. If downtime and maintenance problems is why Cedar Fair does not work with Intamin anymore, then I could see them taking a break from RMC as well. And it is not like it was a problem, but everything is fixed now. Steel Vengeance has terrible capacity with it rarely running all three trains and having lengthy loading times due to the cell phone problem. There is a reason why most RMC’s only have two trains, and Kings Island needs at least three trains for it to eat through lines. It is also worth noting that the three parks that received RMC’s in 2018 in the chain did not see jumps in attendance but instead actually saw decreases in attendance to start off the year. The one park the got something different that year, Knott’s Berry Farm, saw a jump in attendance with their Gerstlauer. I would not be surprised if it is a long time before we see more RMC’s in the Cedar Fair chain. GCI and Cedar Fair have a strong relationship after all of these years, so I see them as being the best candidate.

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https://rcdb.com/9039.htm#p=35941

Edited by FUN&ONLY!
Added sources for the images
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7 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

As more and more of these coasters get built, they all start to feel the same in my opinion. 

I don't think this should be a deciding factor. There are a lot of us who, for one reason or another, aren't able to travel to multiple parks a year. I personally have yet to experience a RMC Hybrid and would love to see one at the park. 

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9 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

 

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Something like that top photo from IAAPA would be nuts!

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If we don't get an RMC woodie, I would like to see us get a giant gravity group woodie! Maybe a mix of Voyage and Hades 360! Plus Gravity Group is based just a few miles from Kings Island in West Chester!

 

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I rode Hades 360 earlier this year and it was one of the roughest coasters I've ridden, right up there with SOB and Mean Streak at their worst.

I would love to see something like a longer version of Goliath at SF Great America but I too have my doubts that CF would work with RMC after the problems they have had with SV.

I do agree with @FUN&ONLY! that a dueling GCI would be a great idea.

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6 minutes ago, Rivertown Rider said:

I would love to see something like a longer version of Goliath at SF Great America but I too have my doubts that CF would work with RMC after the problems they have had with SV.

The only thing I have to say about that is RMC had a lot on their plate when they built that ride. Cedar Point wanted them to go all out and they certainly did. They had a build on top of an existing wood structure which, in my opinion, is a lot harder than starting from the ground up. Look at the amount of supports there on Goliath in comparison to Steel vengeance. 

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Also, RMC was new to Cedar Fair so it took them a while to get most of the problems fixed. Lightning Rod was the first ever launched woodie so that's why it had all that downtime. It was a new type of coaster that has never been done before. Of course there will still be some downtime here and there, but that's part of a rollercoaster. All coasters even the most reliable coasters will have downtime at some point. I do hope that Cedar Fair continues to work with RMC and build nice coasters even at KI! And maybe build some raptor models at some of the smaller parks and maybe build one of the first giant Trexes at Cedar Point! 

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Also when RMC first started out at Six Flags, any changes they did to their coasters were an immediate improvement. They basically kept the same layouts and just alterd the elements. You could argue when they redid Hurler at Kings Dominion they did it with a Six Flags Style where they kept the same layout but altered the elements. 

With Steel Vengeance, they pretty much built a brand new coaster. Cedar Fair doesn't have any other wooden roller coasters that really need help from RMC. I think RMC's big products now are the Raptors and later the T-Rexes.

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2 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Also when RMC first started out at Six Flags, any changes they did to their coasters were an immediate improvement. They basically kept the same layouts and just alterd the elements. You could argue when they redid Hurler at Kings Dominion they did it with a Six Flags Style where they kept the same layout but altered the elements. 

With Steel Vengeance, they pretty much built a brand new coaster. Cedar Fair doesn't have any other wooden roller coasters that really need help from RMC. I think RMC's big products now are the Raptors and later the T-Rexes.

I completely agree with this. I think if we were to get an RMC, it would be something besides a hybrid or a wood because Steel Vengeance is only three hours away. I think RMC is trying to sell as many Raptors as possible before they start selling T-Rexes, and I don’t think a Raptor would have enough capacity for a park like Kings Island. I see our next coaster being from B&M or Mack as Cedar Fair is comfortable with working with them, especially B&M. But I would love to see a new GCI or any new large wooden rollercoaster come to the park.

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I feel that if KI were to get an RMC, it would be a ground up topper track because KI likes being known for their woodies and would probably want to add more to their already awesome wooden coaster collection. Also, I think it would be different enough from Steel Vengeance. Steel Vengeance is a wood steel hybrid and this would be considered a wooden coaster (even though it's different than a traditional wooden coaster). 

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On 9/14/2019 at 10:36 AM, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I feel that if KI were to get an RMC, it would be a ground up topper track because KI likes being known for their woodies and would probably want to add more to their already awesome wooden coaster collection. Also, I think it would be different enough from Steel Vengeance. Steel Vengeance is a wood steel hybrid and this would be considered a wooden coaster (even though it's different than a traditional wooden coaster). 

I agree with this 100% after visiting Cedar Point roughly 10 times this year it is clear what the GP want and what they love. (3 hour wait most days is no joke. Thank god for early ride time) I love the idea of KI actually advertising the wood track record but they need more than The Beast and Mystic Timbers to get people into the door. A topper track ground up (wooden world record breaker) would do that. A topper would make sure it is much different from Steel Vengeance and allow both to coexist while also having that Son of Beast feel to the GP without the pain. Or they can say screw it and build a recorded breaking hybrid to beat Iron Gwazi (how lame) because by that time Cedar Point will have built a Trex model that is so crazy that it now has a 3 hour wait and no one cares about Steel vengeance lol. 

Really what I think hurts KI is not having a hotel or even camping. Especially with Cedar Point only 4 hours away doing some type of 2 park bundle would be awesome especially with the camping. 

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1 hour ago, Hueney020 said:

I agree with this 100% after visiting Cedar Point roughly 10 times this year it is clear what the GP want and what they love. (3 hour wait most days is no joke. Thank god for early ride time) 

The long wait is largely due to poor operations. Last year was a very, very low attendance year for Cedar Point. I don't have exact figures, but Kings Island had a larger 2018 attendance, and all we added was a barbecue restaurant. I do not believe Steel Vengeance has pulled in the GP, for whatever reason. I would love an RMC at Kings Island, but with all the issues Steel Vengeance and Twisted Timbers have and the lukewarm reception of both rides from the general public, I unfortunately find it hard to believe Cedar Fair will work with RMC again.

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31 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

I would love an RMC at Kings Island, but with all the issues Steel Vengeance and Twisted Timbers have and the lukewarm reception of both rides from the general public, I unfortunately find it hard to believe Cedar Fair will work with RMC again.

At least not with wooden coasters- not in the same capacity anyway. I think CF is looking more at their steel coasters. I've heard Railblaizer is a resounding success

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I hope that does not happen. I know they had the new trains and were working out issues. Then again you are going to have some problems when you build something on top of an existing structure. An RMC is an experience that needs to be in every park that’s my opinion at least.

As far as the raptor models they look great and the longer trains are a plus IF they can maintain the intensity and not slow down from being to long. I am sure that will not be the case but you never know. 

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16 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I've heard Railblaizer is a resounding success

But at 600 riders per hour seems kinda more of a space eater than anything else

 

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30 minutes ago, Kingshaven said:

But at 600 riders per hour seems kinda more of a space eater than anything else

 

Its a prototype at a mid tier park so I'd have to disagree. Down the line I think we'll see 2 seater T-Rexes with larger layouts similar to Jersey Devil.

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14 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Its a prototype at a mid tier park so I'd have to disagree. Down the line I think we'll see 2 seater T-Rexes with larger layouts similar to Jersey Devil.

Yes they both are at mid tier parks.  So I'm sure anything they get would be great for the GP.  But single seat and i'm sure the waits are long I'd pass.  BUT when they do get everything lined out and can hold a greater capacity per hour then go ahead and throw one up at KI.  We still have plenty of room.  Hopefully Jersey Devil is a huge success

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