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Discussing Land and Space in and around Vortex


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Using Photoshop, I put the entire park inside of The Vortex land plot. I think this would be a great addition to the park.

Call me dumb but I would prefer not to have another wooden based coaster next to The Beast and Mystic Timbers

(Image source: visitkingsisland.com. Modified with: imgflip.com. Hotel: Trivago.)

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I'm starting to think that Vortex's replacement won't be a coaster. I think that they could try and do a land expansion there (not the whole land due to the terrain), but try and flatten some of the land enough to do a land expansion with a couple flats. I just feel that the front of the park (Action Zone) is in more need of a coaster since the last 2 coasters were in the back of the park. 

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13 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I'm starting to think that Vortex's replacement won't be a coaster. I think that they could try and do a land expansion there (not the whole land due to the terrain), but try and flatten some of the land enough to do a land expansion with a couple flats. I just feel that the front of the park (Action Zone) is in more need of a coaster since the last 2 coasters were in the back of the park. 

I do think they will replace Vortex with a coaster because there are already plenty of flats in Coney Mall and altering the terrain would be more expensive, but I agree, I think Action Zone will see a new coaster before Vortex is replaced.

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I would like to see them go the Frontier Canada route and add some flats to flesh out the area and then add the coaster.  That area of the park is so busy as it is that I think they will do what makes the most sense as opposed to just rushing to put something in.

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5 hours ago, RayFields said:

Lot of nice ideas here but I would greatly prefer an X2 killing S&S Axis 4D coaster over all other options. If people are going gaga over a 800 ft. prototype I can't imagine what a full scale model would be like. Reliability and Maintenance costs would obviously be the biggest concerns and may be a deal breaker but these things look to be a riot.

https://attractionsmagazine.com/my-test-ride-on-axis-the-next-evolution-of-roller-coaster/

"As the coaster launches (approximately 0-70 in 1.8 seconds on the prototype! WOAH!) I am thrust back into my seat; then, what looks like an outer bank turn flipped me over, but it only flipped the vehicles, as the track doesn’t do a full inversion. Wait! Did I just do a barrel roll even though the track didn’t? I’m not sure I have time to figure it out as I’m immediately on the side of the track instead of above it in the next element, a banked turn, that immediately drops me into something no other coaster has ever done. I’m not so sure this next element even has a name, as the coaster floats over the track providing a bit of sustained airtime. I made one more fast bank to the right that was so sharp, the cart rotated almost 90 degrees through the final element. It blew past the launch track and back up toward the first section that inverted"

"I have no words at this moment. How? What? Where? Nevermind, my mind couldn’t comprehend what just happened. I guess I need to try it again. Launch. Repeat. Launch. Repeat. Launch. Repeat. I just cannot wrap my mind around what is happening."

"After somewhere north of six or so rides, I finally had an understanding of what’s happening. Barely. I could sit here and try to describe this all day, but I would just end up talking in circles. So much happened in 800 feet of track that it may as well be a full coaster in itself, but it isn’t. In fact, the full-scale version is going to be even more insane. 

So, which theme park is getting one? Well, we don’t know. When can you ride it? Again, we don’t know. Once a park purchases one from S&S, it’ll be a while before it’s built and ready to ride. Also note that whatever theme park company buys it, they will name it themselves, so it may not have Axis in the title. But you’ll know it when you see it.

But, there is a lot we did learn about the design and the tracking system. The coaster rotations feel random, but are actually extremely controlled. While there may be some slight variation based on weight, every element was designed to make the car do what they want. In the back seat POV in the video above you can see a giant “wheel” made of metal on the back of the seat that rotates. That wheel actually contains magnets that control the speed of rotation. The roller coaster’s speed and the track transitions determine exactly what the car is going to do. This is roller coaster design taken to the next level."

Unfortunately, as this prototype isn’t open to the public. You may have to wait a few years to fully understand what that next level coaster is. I promise though, it’ll be worth the wait.

Sorry Steel Vengeance, you are no longer my number one roller coaster. That title belongs to 800 feet of track in an empty field in the middle of nowhere Utah."

 

Yeah I'll take one....

 

Are you related to stan checkets? 

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I think due to the likely multi-year gap that there will be before another coaster is built at Kings Island, it is probably a bit premature to make a solid prediction.  My guess is that the next one will be either a Mack or an RMC.  What other Cedar Fair parks receive in the years before Kings Island gets their next one will likely have a strong influence.

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4 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

They could do a station like Maverick where they have two trains that they load at once. After a train clears the holding break, the second one could begin its ascent up the lift hill.

In theory does it even need to clear the holding brake? You'll never get loading times that snappy but isn't the lift generally a block too...

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1 hour ago, coaster sally said:

@SonofBaconator maverick was the prototype multi launch.....

Cheetah hunt runs reliably year round.  Not counting the way more units sold around the world over the mack.

I didn't say anything about Intamin. You asked why people liked Macks so much and I said because they're reliable.  

37 minutes ago, MrSourNinja said:

In theory does it even need to clear the holding brake? You'll never get loading times that snappy but isn't the lift generally a block too...

Not necessarily, it could even go sooner. I googled "Sheikra" (which features a double train load station) and the 2nd train is about halfway up the lift by the time the 1st train is dropped. I think in reality the 2nd train can be dispatched once the 1st train crests the lift. I suggested to dispatch after the holding break to prevent stranding passengers. On Sheikra, there's no block between the lift and the holding break. If you look at the last picture you'll see the 2nd train stuck at the top because the 1st train didn't make it to the holding break.

d3c8bb736b853f346f0afce12979c996.jpg

2017_BuschGardensTampaBay_RollerCoasters_SheiKra_357x229.jpg

6ddd4dca-Still0512_00044_1463090108545_1301846_ver1.0_640_360.jpg

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12 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I'm starting to think that Vortex's replacement won't be a coaster. I think that they could try and do a land expansion there (not the whole land due to the terrain), but try and flatten some of the land enough to do a land expansion with a couple flats. I just feel that the front of the park (Action Zone) is in more need of a coaster since the last 2 coasters were in the back of the park. 

Both Orion and Mystic Timbers are in the middle of the park, not the back.   I think the vacant eye candy real estate from The Vortex removal needs to be filled.  (Lack of) Action Zone needs some major work and I think that will come in time.  The Area Formerly Known As Coney Mall has done very well in the last few years, so I think AZ will have the same love shown, it will just be a multi-year project.  Maybe it will turn into the Haunted Bavarian Forest, who knows?

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I truly believe whatever is chosen it will be a already proven, reliable people eater coaster design.  After the somewhat failed $50+ million investments for SOB and Tomb Raider, Cedar Fair has gone this route at KI.  The only exception was Firehawk but that was a unique situation of dividing up Geauga Lake coasters.  I always kind of wished we got the one sent to KD.

When Terp was still on the forum, he really drove home that idea of a proven, reliable people eater when Banshee was announced.  He felt it was a must for KI at the time and it seems to be some of their main criteria till this day.

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13 hours ago, coaster sally said:

Are you related to stan checkets? 

Admit is you want one of those coasters just as badly as I do...You don't have to be afraid to agree with my obviously perfect proposal

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2 hours ago, rlentless said:

When Terp was still on the forum, he really drove home that idea of a proven, reliable people eater when Banshee was announced.  He felt it was a must for KI at the time and it seems to be some of their main criteria till this day.

You mentioned how expensive SOB and TRTR were which ultimately hurt the park money wise. Personally, I don't see the need to invest in an experimental ride if the cost is going to be too high. Its one thing to invest more money in a tried and true model but both SOB and TRTR were pioneers in their own right when it came to pushing the limits of thrills.

I think there has to be certain questions asked before a coaster or thrill ride can be qualified for a KI install in my opinion:

  1. Does the manufacturer have a solid track record?
  2. Will the ride operate with minimal downtime while providing a safe experience?
  3. Will the risk we take be worth the return on investment? 

Son of Beast was built from a manufacturer that didn't have a solid track record, the ride did not provide a safe experience, and the risk was certainly not worth the investment. Apply those earlier questions to the last 4 ground up installs we've gotten. Diamondback, Banshee, Mystic Timbers, and Orion all come from manufacturers with great track records, they operate with minimal downtime and are incredibly safe, and I'd say they got the return on investment (maybe not Orion just yet but I 100% attribute that to Covid). 

Unfortunately, SOB and TRTR ruined the chance for the park to take further risks. B&M and GCI are companies that manufacture roller coasters that have a very small risk of failure which is why we have them. I've stated somewhere else on here that taking risks isn't necessarily wise in this market anymore if you're trying to minimize downtime and boast reliability. Some people might criticize a park for not willing to take risks but at the end of the day, the less risks you take, the more money you make.

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13 hours ago, coaster sally said:

@SonofBaconator maverick was the prototype multi launch.....

Cheetah hunt runs reliably year round.  Not counting the way more units sold around the world over the mack.

I would love a Cheetah Hunt style coaster, more so than Maverick.  With the land available, they could do a lot of different maneuvers including negotiating a valley of "rocks/cliffs".  The terrain would really fit that kind of element.  Again, it would take Cedar Fair and Intamin patching up their differences (similar to Arrow and Kings Island back in the 80's).  

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18 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I'm starting to think that Vortex's replacement won't be a coaster. I think that they could try and do a land expansion there (not the whole land due to the terrain), but try and flatten some of the land enough to do a land expansion with a couple flats. I just feel that the front of the park (Action Zone) is in more need of a coaster since the last 2 coasters were in the back of the park. 

A tiny part of me thinks it might be just trees to make The Beast more immersive but it will probably be a coaster or some kind of ride

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13 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I didn't say anything about Intamin. You asked why people liked Macks so much and I said because they're reliable.  

Not necessarily, it could even go sooner. I googled "Sheikra" (which features a double train load station) and the 2nd train is about halfway up the lift by the time the 1st train is dropped. I think in reality the 2nd train can be dispatched once the 1st train crests the lift. I suggested to dispatch after the holding break to prevent stranding passengers. On Sheikra, there's no block between the lift and the holding break. If you look at the last picture you'll see the 2nd train stuck at the top because the 1st train didn't make it to the holding break.

d3c8bb736b853f346f0afce12979c996.jpg

2017_BuschGardensTampaBay_RollerCoasters_SheiKra_357x229.jpg

6ddd4dca-Still0512_00044_1463090108545_1301846_ver1.0_640_360.jpg

Very true! That is a great second pic you got!! I have never ridden but it definitely doesn't have a block before the holding break. I also don't prefer the 180deg turns after the lift. The 90deg turns are much better imo. I think a dual loading station would work if you wanted to do 6 seat rows. I think a single load would be too low capacity though. I am sorta down for a dual loading dive with 6 seat rows. Not my #1 option but I think better than a wing. Would like to see them get the whole train vertical on the holding break too by lowering the height of it. Doubt that would happen though.

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5 minutes ago, MrSourNinja said:

Very true! That is a great second pic you got!! I have never ridden but it definitely doesn't have a block before the holding break. I also don't prefer the 180deg turns after the lift. The 90deg turns are much better imo. I think a dual loading station would work if you wanted to do 6 seat rows. I think a single load would be too low capacity though. I am sorta down for a dual loading dive with 6 seat rows. Not my #1 option but I think better than a wing. Would like to see them get the whole train vertical on the holding break too by lowering the height of it. Doubt that would happen though.

I don't know why CP never opted for a double loading station with Valravn. From a capacity standpoint it would help out a lot. If KI ever got a dive, whether it be a 6 seater or 8, I'd like to see a double loading station utilized to increase capacity.

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6 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I don't know why CP never opted for a double loading station with Valravn. From a capacity standpoint it would help out a lot. If KI ever got a dive, whether it be a 6 seater or 8, I'd like to see a double loading station utilized to increase capacity.

Do the double loading stations run 4 trains, or just 3?

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26 minutes ago, IceePirate said:

Do the double loading stations run 4 trains, or just 3?

According to Wikipedia, Sheikra has 5 trains. I don't recall how many operated when I went back in 2012. I don't know if all can run without stacking or if they alternate trains throughout the year; part of me thinks the latter since they operate year round.

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18 hours ago, MysticEnthusiast said:

A tiny part of me thinks it might be just trees to make The Beast more immersive but it will probably be a coaster or some kind of ride

We can hope ( about the trees) 

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On 8/17/2020 at 9:24 AM, Rifleman said:

 

 

I have to disagree with the guy talking in the video. Yes you have competition between Kentucky Kingdom and Cedar Point, but that doesn't mean you have to one up either of those rides to build a ground up rmc. For example, when Maverick was built, they didn't care about height for a year, they cared about quality. Yes I know Maverick has downtime, but when it's running it's a top five roller coaster for the adrenaline junkies! Now moving on to my point, Cedar Fair and Kings Island can still build a ground up rmc, but make it similar in height like Vortex was. Maybe instead of 148 feet, they could go one more foot up. Maybe they could throw in the two loops like Vortex had and pay tribute to it. I'm surprised the rmc's out there haven't done a traditional loop yet to be honest. I hope everyone understands my opinion here.

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13 minutes ago, Shawn Meyer said:

 Maybe they could throw in the two loops like Vortex had and pay tribute to it. I'm surprised the rmc's out there haven't done a traditional loop yet to be honest. I hope everyone understands my opinion here.

I believe I heard someone say that they heard Alan Schilke say that he doesn't like doing vertical loops. If true, don't expect a vertical loop on an RMC.

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13 hours ago, Shawn Meyer said:

I have to disagree with the guy talking in the video. Yes you have competition between Kentucky Kingdom and Cedar Point, but that doesn't mean you have to one up either of those rides to build a ground up rmc. For example, when Maverick was built, they didn't care about height for a year, they cared about quality. Yes I know Maverick has downtime, but when it's running it's a top five roller coaster for the adrenaline junkies! Now moving on to my point, Cedar Fair and Kings Island can still build a ground up rmc, but make it similar in height like Vortex was. Maybe instead of 148 feet, they could go one more foot up. Maybe they could throw in the two loops like Vortex had and pay tribute to it. I'm surprised the rmc's out there haven't done a traditional loop yet to be honest. I hope everyone understands my opinion here.

I totally agree that a RMC in this spot would not necessarily need to outdo steel vengeance, my logic was based around the idea that to have the capacity Kings Island would require, an RMC in this location would need to run three trains, and the only RMC's that do this are their larger scale models like Steel Vengeance. Being in a competing park, outdoing Storm Chaser would be a feature, not a bug, in a larger scale RMC at Kings Island.

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2 minutes ago, Rifleman said:

I totally agree that a RMC in this spot would not necessarily need to outdo steel vengeance, my logic was based around the idea that to have the capacity Kings Island would require, an RMC in this location would need to run three trains, and the only RMC's that do this are their larger scale models like Steel Vengeance. Being in a competing park, outdoing Storm Chaser would be a feature, not a bug, in a larger scale RMC at Kings Island.

Kings Island does not need capacity.  They don't get the lines in the dry park as places like Cedar Point.  

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1 hour ago, coaster sally said:

Kings Island does not need capacity.  They don't get the lines in the dry park as places like Cedar Point.  

They don't get the lines in the dry park because they have reliable rides that don't suffer from lots of downtime and the rides move people through the lines quickly.  Many coasters at CP don't compare in those regards.

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