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SonofBaconator

Could KI be getting a Floorless next?

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^^Right. We have some low capacity rides, but that isn't to say it wouldn't be preferable to have something higher capacity.

Also, Invertigo is not a high-profile ride by any means and has the excuse of being a shuttle. The problem with JDC is that its going to be one of SFGAdv top rides, yet will have a capacity far below Nitro, El Toro, and Bizarro. Kingda Ka has poor capacity and thats reflected in its wait times.

FOF and BLSC? Those are both launched, which also tend to be lower capacity rides in general.

I'd say most of us are in agreement that an RMC of some type would be a welcome addition to the park someday, but personally I'd like to them improve their capacity first. 

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I respect all opinions. However, it seems like just about all b&m floorless coasters seem to have cookie cutter layouts, so if you’ve ridden one, there’s no real importance to ride others. That’s just how I view them as a enthusiast. I know they are great capacity and reliable though. I think something that could compare to a floorless and wouldn’t be something Cedar Point or Kentucky Kingdom has is one of vekomas new gen coasters.

 

Launch Model:

 Won’t let me posts two videos so if you want look up Abyssus at Energylandia.

 

Lift hill Model:

 

 https://youtu.be/qnH6nW3k1ZY

 

This would be very unique as none of these exists in America and seems to have a nice mix of inversions, speed, and airtime. They could also make it work well with the terrain Vortex used. I don’t know much about the capacity however.

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Thank god Mr. Kinzel went with maverick instead of a 200' b&m floorless.  That was the other option on the table at the time.  Look at CP.  B&M's are popular for a year or so but for the long haul people keep coming back to MF, maverick, TTD, Magnum, Steel Vengeance, ETC.  Having ridden Bizarro, the dark knight, Scream, Medusa West, Dominator, hydra, the awful conversions firebird & rougarou, and krypton coaster(being the best) they all are cookie cutter, forgettable, one and one coasters IMO.  We can all agree with Steel Vengeance and MF being on both sides of the former white water landing site that place would be a ghost town with a floorless there.

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Yes you are correct but I am not looking at all of this from an enthusiast's perspective. As an enthusiast I'd love for KI to get an Intamin like Maverick but I know it'll never happen financially.

I've argued B&M is the safest choice just because of reliability. The general public could really care less about what manufacturer a coaster comes from. Not a lot of GP have ridden Medusa, Bizzaro, Scream, Rougarou, and other floorless models. You could argue B&M installs cookie cuter Hypers but yet Cedar Fair bought 3 of them as well as 3 of their giga models. Dive machines, which are the most cookie cutter coasters of all time, have been installed at 2 of Cedar Fair's parks and I'm sure there's more coming down the road.

As I got older, I started to learn that KI and Cedar Fair try to cater more to the GP because they're the ones who make the parks the most money. I recommend watching Eltoro Ryan's video on I305 if you want to see how going more intense and catering more to the thrill seekers doesn't always reap financial rewards. 

Maybe we won't get a B&M, maybe we'll get a Mack, an S&S or maybe an RMC single rail, but whatever we get please understand this- when they do decide on a manufacturer it won't be with the enthusiasts in mind but rather the GP who ultimately pay for the coaster.

 

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1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

Yes you are correct but I am not looking at all of this from an enthusiast's perspective. As an enthusiast I'd love for KI to get an Intamin like Maverick but I know it'll never happen financially.

I've argued B&M is the safest choice just because of reliability. The general public could really care less about what manufacturer a coaster comes from. Not a lot of GP have ridden Medusa, Bizzaro, Scream, Rougarou, and other floorless models. You could argue B&M installs cookie cuter Hypers but yet Cedar Fair bought 3 of them as well as 3 of their giga models. Dive machines, which are the most cookie cutter coasters of all time, have been installed at 2 of Cedar Fair's parks and I'm sure there's more coming down the road.

As I got older, I started to learn that KI and Cedar Fair try to cater more to the GP because they're the ones who make the parks the most money. I recommend watching Eltoro Ryan's video on I305 if you want to see how going more intense and catering more to the thrill seekers doesn't always reap financial rewards. 

Maybe we won't get a B&M, maybe we'll get a Mack, an S&S or maybe an RMC single rail, but whatever we get please understand this- when they do decide on a manufacturer it won't be with the enthusiasts in mind but rather the GP who ultimately pay for the coaster.

 

Intamin gave Cedar Fair what they wanted, see the interviews the CF brass gave in this nice video.  See 3:40

With my GP hat on, the b&m's at CP have long lines first thing as that is what the GP sees when they walk in the gates.  Later on in the day and the evening those rides are walk-ons.  Valraven still has a line cause its the newest.  Raptor & GateKeeper are sending out half empty trains.  A large b&m in frontiertown would be a walk on all day long.  Rides like I mentioned above have a consistent line throughout the entire day.  

 

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41 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

With my GP hat on, the b&m's at CP have long lines first thing as that is what the GP sees when they walk in the gates.  Later on in the day and the evening those rides are walk-ons.  Valraven still has a line cause its the newest.  Raptor & GateKeeper are sending out half empty trains.  A large b&m in frontiertown would be a walk on all day long.  Rides like I mentioned above have a consistent line throughout the entire day. 

Have you ever heard of something called capacity? Short lines =/= an unpopular ride. See also Banshee.

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@coaster sally you're looking at just Cedar Point, the "Thrill Captial of the World", where Kinzel flooded the park with Intamins in the 2000s. Look at the other top 3 parks in the chain. What have they all gotten since the Cedar Fair acquisition? Collectively KI, CW, & CWS have gotten 8 B&Ms, 1 Mack, 1 GCI, (and a triotech coaster). Even Cedar Point has gotten 2 ground up B&Ms and converted their stand-up. All the rides mentioned are safe and reliable which is what Cedar Fair is all about. There's a reason you haven't seen a new Intamin in the chain since 2010.

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30 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

Have you ever heard of something called capacity? Short lines =/= an unpopular ride. See also Banshee.

My point is that CF wanted the most intense coaster ever created to honor Dale Earnhardt and the areas NASCAR fans.  They got what they wanted.  A lot of people are afraid to ride it due to the intensity, but Intamin built what CF wanted.  

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Just now, coaster sally said:

My point is that CF wanted the most intense coaster ever created to honor Dale Earnhardt and the areas NASCAR fans.  They got what they wanted.  A lot of people are afraid to ride it due to the intensity, but Intamin built what CF wanted.  

Don’t play dumb. Your main point in your post I quoted was that B&Ms are not consistently popular. They absolutely are, and ridership figures prove it. They have great capacity; that’s why they always have short lines.

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25 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

@coaster sally you're looking at just Cedar Point, the "Thrill Captial of the World", where Kinzel flooded the park with Intamins in the 2000s. Look at the other top 3 parks in the chain. What have they all gotten since the Cedar Fair acquisition? Collectively KI, CW, & CWS have gotten 8 B&Ms, 1 Mack, 1 GCI, (and a triotech coaster). Even Cedar Point has gotten 2 ground up B&Ms and converted their stand-up. All the rides mentioned are safe and reliable which is what Cedar Fair is all about. There's a reason you haven't seen a new Intamin in the chain since 2010.

I don't understand what this discussion is about.  The point that I am making is that the GP likes variety.  The only park that has # of Intamins and B&M's collectively is CP.  The GP chooses the Intamins over the B&M's.  I guess the next place would be Great Adventure and the GP prefer KA, El Toro, & skull mountain over the b&m's there.

 

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2 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

Don’t play dumb. Your main point in your post I quoted was that B&Ms are not consistently popular. They absolutely are, and ridership figures prove it. They have great capacity; that’s why they always have short lines.

Point is if you polled GP coming in the gates @ CP which coaster is bringing them there, the b&m's would be way down the list.

Lets please not get into a manufacturer debate.

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3 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Point is if you polled GP coming in the gates @ CP which coaster is bringing them there, the b&m's would be way down the list.

Valravn and GateKeeper are the two coasters that lead the ridership numbers: https://www.cedarpoint.com/blog/2018-ridership-leaders . The only Intamin in the top 5 is Millennium Force.

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11 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

I don't understand what this discussion is about. 

You're not obligated to post on this thread you know

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I don’t think Cedar Fair went to Intamin and said “Please make a coaster that causes people to black out and will require re-profiling after one season of operation”

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2 minutes ago, Benjamin22 said:

I don’t think Cedar Fair went to Intamin and said “Please make a coaster that causes people to black out and will require re-profiling after one season of operation”

Did you watch the video.  Mr Kinzel said as much.  

SoB, I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Ghost Guy, I hope your book does well.  I am excited to read it.

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i think a floorless at KI would be a great fit! now that Vortex is gone, they don’t have a sit down non-inverted looping coaster, and knowing the reliability and lifespan of B&Ms, it’d be a great fit as there’s nothing else like it at the park!

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2 hours ago, Marc3E said:

i think a floorless at KI would be a great fit! now that Vortex is gone, they don’t have a sit down non-inverted looping coaster, and knowing the reliability and lifespan of B&Ms, it’d be a great fit as there’s nothing else like it at the park!

Raises hand. 

20190518_085027.jpg

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On 5/4/2020 at 12:53 PM, coaster sally said:

Did you watch the video.  Mr Kinzel said as much.  

SoB, I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Ghost Guy, I hope your book does well.  I am excited to read it.

Yes because Kinzel isn't going to say on a press day advertising their new ride "this ride made me black out".

 

There are alot of points to be said here, as someone who has background operating Intamin rides, they are very maintenance heavy and require constant attention from ride operations and maintenance, and while yes, Cedar Point's Intamin rides are very popular, uptime is very important, and if your new ride isn't reliable, it isn't good for business, and that's why Intamin rides have not been built in the US as frequently as they once were. Look at Hagrid's Magical Creatures Moterbike Adventure for instance, it's still not running all of it's trains, and the ride very much still has it's issues, though the ride itself is nothing short of incredible. Some parks seek the rewards of installing an Intamin, and in my opinion they provide the best ride experiences (yes over most RMC rides). I highly recommend watching El Toro Ryan's videos about operations, he's a good guy, and one of the very few coaster channels that aren't full of clickbait videos.

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13 hours ago, Marc3E said:

(with a traditional lift)

That was not part of your description. :P

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That was not part of your description. 

be quiet you know what i mean...

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I don't think the next coaster will be a B&M. Are they crowd-pleasers? Yes of course. High capacity and world-class reliability? Duh. But Kings Island isn't missing a B&M. I doubt that Cedar Fair wants to pay that premium for the 3rd time in the last 4 major acquisitions especially for a model that wouldn't be unique or new. I see three possibilities: A multi-inversion coaster in the form of S&S or a Euro-fighter, a multi-launched couple inversion coaster, or a ground-up RMC. I know it's 50 50 on this forum but RMC's are hot, even with the GP right now. And a RMC that focuses more on inversions would be an easy record breaker to advertise. They also aren't overly expensive and have good enough capacity. A 5-7 inversion ground-up RMC ranging from 135-210 feet tall would be a fairly economical way to break a record and it would draw in enthusiasts and GP. I doubt we will see a Euro-fighter due to the low capacity. Something like Steel Curtain could come but it is already close and had some down-time issues (I think?). A new aged multi-launched Intamin would be amazing but it would more likely be from another manufacturer, maybe even premier after west coast racers. It would need to be more powerful than that though as you are replacing a thrill coaster and already have BLSC for the middle ranged launch. Whatever it is, it is going to be on the thrilling side and I definitely think they will try to break a world/ US record since the last time they did that was 2014 and you're replacing a ride that did just that.

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I'm fine with these too

@MrSourNinja when you say ground up RMC do you mean a single rail or a hybrid?

I also wouldn't mind a Steel Curtain type coaster as you mentioned as long as it packs in the inversions

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13 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I'm fine with these too

@MrSourNinja when you say ground up RMC do you mean a single rail or a hybrid?

I also wouldn't mind a Steel Curtain type coaster as you mentioned as long as it packs in the inversions

@SonofBaconator A hybrid (sorry for not clarifying). I think a single rail is too low capacity without it being a T-Rex and recent KI definitely hasn't been one to experiment with new models. A hybrid is proven and extremely popular with enthusiasts and GP right now. 210 feet, 93deg drop and 6 inversions gives you the recipe for a 3 record breaker to replace a record breaker, without breaking the bank for a large scale B&M. It doesn't even have to focus on air time, that way you can get the inversions and keep the length down. Most of the airtime can be ejector (besides 1 large outer-bank hill, I will reject the coaster entirely if they leave off a larger outer-bank ;)). 

I think a floor-less would be a decent fit but they aren't very popular anymore and the GP might not be impressed if it's not huge, especially with a very similar Orion coming this year. I know Orion won't have inversions but the track looks similar and honestly I think GP would be disappointed in it's height.

Timeline: I am thinking 2024 for the RMC Hybrid or launched coaster in Vortex's spot (I am assuming they will look to replace that plot quickly as it holds a lot of memories and won't look good empty) and then 2027-2028 for your next B&M. Either a surf, dive, wing, or flyer to go with the new entrance from the year before. Also kiss Invertigo goodbye for the new entrance. They will announce The Bat's closing right before that to use the new B&M to help sweeten the blow. Just my 2c on how things could shake out.

 

Concept for what the RMC could look like:

largeRMCConcept_1.png

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I would love an RMC hybrid or and Intamin blitz coaster, and they both could bring one thing that the park is sorely (in my eyes) missing that no one has brought up.  The biggest gap i see in the lineup is a beyond 90° drop.  Either of these options could not only replace lost inversions but give KI an amazing, throw you out of your seat drop. Im a sucker for highly banked turns too.   I really hope that Pantheon and the Jurassic Park coaster are well received and prove reliable so that Intamin can get more work state side and hopefully with Cedar Fair.

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Well if they ever wanted to replace Vortex in a similar way that it was designed or layed out, a B&M floorless is the answer. Now Kings Island is more of a family park compared to Cedar Point. I'm happy Orion was installed, but I imagine they're going to build something the whole family will enjoy. If they decide to build an RMC ground up, they could make that less intense than Steel Vengeance at Cedar Point, so the whole family will enjoy it. I just want them to throw a loop in there to pay tribute to Vortex. If they go with a B&M floorless, they have a better chance of going back to back with the loops to give it that look that area of the park just lost.

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Vortex was one of the most beautiful coasters ever built, I will grant you that.  I would love to see interlocking loops or corkscrews close to the pathway that connects rivertown and coney mall.

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I agree that a B&M flourless would provide something similar to Vortex, I just don’t think that’s what they are going to go for. SOB is right. We need a killer drop, RMC is cheaper and would provide that. If they wanted to go a sit down looper I think they would choose an S&S like the one in Steelers country before a B&M floorless. There hasn’t been a new floorless built in a long time and I doubt one would be built again either. I’d actually be more in favor of a B&M sit down looper like hulk but with a tighter track that could do smaller inversions. 

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