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Coronavirus Impacting Theme Parks


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9 hours ago, King Ding Dong said:

Well I can’t argue with you there.  So I think Adventure Express is the most thrilling, well themed and the absolute best coaster at at Kings Island and makes Diamondback look like a kiddie coaster.  What do you think?

Well I like it but not like I like  the biggest fastest tallest longest meanest metal roller coaster ever to strike Kings Island!!!!!!!  but you like what you like and i ike what I like.

 

I thnk i like little debbie better than any snack from your company.  what do you think about that mr meanie?

 

9 hours ago, Kodistict said:

Yup, Top Thrill Dragster sure is a blast.

Yeah and they have a few other coasters up there i want to ride.  Maybe in the next few years i can get there, if thy ever open up because of the STUPID viris!!!!

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Masks are required at the parks right now. We have hashed out your argument multiple times and there is no need to do it again. At this point in time, if you don't want to wear a mask and think t

It is really quite simple: If you do not want to wear a mask at a place of business that requires a mask, don't go. Please understand though- DO NOT cause a scene because an employee has asked yo

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4 minutes ago, dbackdreams said:

Well I like it but not like I like  the biggest fastest tallest longest meanest metal roller coaster ever to strike Kings Island!!!!!!!  but you like what you like and i ike what I like.

 

I thnk i like little debbie better than any snack from your company.  what do you think about that mr meanie?

Meanie's are made by KP Snacks, no affiliation to the company making Ding Dongs:P

image.png

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1 minute ago, disco2000 said:

Meanie's are made by KP Snacks, no affiliation to the company making Ding Dongs:P

image.png

Thats soooooooo gross.  But thats what i think king dind gong looks like when he is being mean and making fun of me.  But I will turn that around and think about riding Diamondback the biggest fastest tallest longest meanest metal roller coaster ever to strike Kings Island!!!!!

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1 minute ago, disco2000 said:

Meanie's are made by KP Snacks, no affiliation to the company making Ding Dongs:P

image.png

I sort of wish I could unsee the flavor.

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1 minute ago, Klabergian Empire said:

Anyway....How do y'all think this lawsuit will work out?

Well this is the biggest fastest tallest longest meanest lawsuit I have ever seen.  

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I was surprised by 2 things in Thursday's announcements. The first was that amusement parks were not mentioned in the announcement.  The second was that the businesses that were mentioned are allowed to be open June 10th, which is next week.

Cedar Fair is no doubt fed up with waiting for an announcement.  The lawsuits are likely just as much to apply pressure as they are to obtain a favorable ruling.  I can understand how they feel they are being held hostage by the governor's office at this point.  It certainly doesn't seem like there has been much agreement behind the scenes between the 2 parties based on what happened on Thursday.

The lack of announcement is frustrating, but the reality is that Kings Island has not fallen that far behind other parks in similar situations.  Holiday World is not opening until June 17th.  Kentucky Kingdom is not opening until June 29th.  Disney is not opening until early July.  Six Flags 3 biggest parks (Great Adventure, Great America, and Magic Mountain) have no announced date yet for when they will open.  

 

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2 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

John Matarese mentioned KIC in his article about the lawsuit lol.

 

Screenshot_20200605-013907.png

I am so glad he included this in the article. It is so strange how trampoline parks can reopen when amusement parks can’t. It makes no sense at all.

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4 hours ago, Klabergian Empire said:

Anyway....How do y'all think this lawsuit will work out?

Is there a date for it to go in front of a judge already? For all I know it could be sitting in a very big pile a judge won't review for weeks.

 

1 hour ago, Pagoda Gift Shop said:

The lack of announcement is frustrating, but the reality is that Kings Island has not fallen that far behind other parks in similar situations.  Holiday World is not opening until June 17th.  Kentucky Kingdom is not opening until June 29th.  Disney is not opening until early July.  Six Flags 3 biggest parks (Great Adventure, Great America, and Magic Mountain) have no announced date yet for when they will open.  

 

Without the government giving a date they can open, financially it may not make sense to even bring people in for training. They had already stated they needed a few weeks for that, so if DeWine would have given the okay to open immediately it'd be the earliest June 18th to 25th pushing training and final prep. The health order as is gives them 26 days till July 1st thats it.

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7 hours ago, Klabergian Empire said:

"unsee the flavor

Bro...thats like saying:

image.jpeg

 

Anyway....How do y'all think this lawsuit will work out?

 

3 hours ago, PatchesC said:

Is there a date for it to go in front of a judge already? For all I know it could be sitting in a very big pile a judge won't review for weeks.

 

Without the government giving a date they can open, financially it may not make sense to even bring people in for training. They had already stated they needed a few weeks for that, so if DeWine would have given the okay to open immediately it'd be the earliest June 18th to 25th pushing training and final prep. The health order as is gives them 26 days till July 1st thats it.

Not great, and IMHO it was a tactical error on the parks part, but the park is being pushed by the Warren County Commissioners so they are between a rock and a hard place.  Every other time someone has sued to reopen in Ohio and federal court, the courts side against the business and they stay closed but now with the added cost of court. The case wont be heard by a judge for 60-90 days, and then wont be ruled on for up to a year. And if at the end of a year if they are still closed, and not just reopened with the lifting of restrictions, now we begin the appeal process which is up to 3-5 years between cases.  The standard on how the courts will treat all of these cases is South Bay United Pentecostal Church v. Gavin Newsom, Governor of California.  This is a very recent supreme court ruling, and yes it is a ruling even thought they never heard arguments which is an extraordinary measure. But the Supreme Court upheld churches being closed, and churches have more autonomy to stay open then a business. Below is a telling paragraph and will be cited everywhere else to throw out these lawsuits.  All of this lawsuit did was make Kings Island a hostile party to the Governor, the park is being used as a pawn by the county commissioners and in the end the park is the one who will get hurt.

 

The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement. Our Constitution principally entrusts “[t]he safety and the health of the people” to the politically ac-countable officials of the States “to guard and protect.” Ja-cobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 38 (1905). When those officials “undertake[] to act in areas fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties,” their latitude “must be especially broad.” Marshall v. United States, 414 U. S. 417, 427 (1974). Where those broad limits are not exceeded, they should not be subject to second-guessing by an “une-lected federal judiciary,” which lacks the background, com-petence, and expertise to assess public health and is not ac-countable to the people. See Garciav. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U. S. 528, 545 (1985).

 

 

EDIT: 

So I have now had a chance to read the court filling in its entirety and it is not great.  If my lawyer filled this in court, I would be embarrassed with all of the cutting and pasting errors and obvious revision where things were removed but the grammar wasn't updated to reflect that.  "that  latitude  remains  subject  to  limitations imposed by both the Ohio Constitution", both what? In other parts they politicize the topic while in others they make claims that are illogical and go against existing law. "The Ohio Department of Health, its Director, and county health departments claim the authority to criminalize and fine operation of safe amusement and water parks." Yeah they do that every single day across the state and country, i.e. food safety laws.  This is blatantly nonfactual as they have set up a public board to review business objections to not being allowed to open, and other courts have upheld them as constitutional already, "without providing any process, venue, or judicial review to determine whether these Ohioans’ businesses are in fact safe enough to warrant operation". "This harm may only be remedied by a ruling from this Court, and Defendants must be immediately and permanently enjoined from imposing criminal, civil, or equitable sanctions on the safe operation of Ohio amusement and water parks including Plaintiffs."  This is not the only way they can be freed of a perceived harm, they could use the review boards already in place that the courts already view as acceptable, and courts typically look down on plaintiffs that could have received relief elsewhere and didn't attempt that route first. 

 

Long story short the lawsuit doesn't look like it will be ruled on in Cedar Fairs favor, but IMHO this wont even go to trial purely due to the speed of our court systems. Reading elsewhere on what Cedar Fair plans to do to reopen, they are lacking in a few key areas compared to other parks that have been allowed to open.  The biggest example is Cedar Fair believes they can safely social distance in a traditional que line whereas most every other chain has gone to a digital ride wait system.  My speculation and it is purely speculation is that Dewine wants them to go to a similar system and Cedar Fair up to this point hasn't been willing to or is unable for some other reason and that is the hold up.  Once they get this last sticking point worked out they will reopen with the rest of the parks, and remember only 1 park is operating in the entire country with everyone else due to open in the next week to couple months.  What ever Disney does is going to be the standard everyone else will be held too. They have experience reopening parks in other countries and are a pillar of society that people look up to for guidance.

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11 hours ago, PatchesC said:

Thought employees couldn't post internal info. I know of someone's daughter that has been contacted for rehire but that's it.

Right, but they'd be recruiting for employees through job fairs, etc - we'd know if there was widespread hiring going on, I have to believe.

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4 minutes ago, flightoffear1996 said:

 There is a lot of Americans looking for jobs right now. I would think the open positions would fill up quickly. 

The problem is that for the short term, anyone on unemployment is making WAY more than they would working at KI. Until the extra $600 a week phases out, it will be very difficult for businesses to fill any positions below $25/Hour.

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41 minutes ago, Rifleman said:

The problem is that for the short term, anyone on unemployment is making WAY more than they would working at KI. Until the extra $600 a week phases out, it will be very difficult for businesses to fill any positions below $25/Hour.

And that is the problem. The government Incentivizing people not to work. 

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1 hour ago, Rifleman said:

The problem is that for the short term, anyone on unemployment is making WAY more than they would working at KI. Until the extra $600 a week phases out, it will be very difficult for businesses to fill any positions below $25/Hour.

Looks like the extra $600 expires July 31st, barring any new amendment.

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13 minutes ago, flightoffear1996 said:

And that is the problem. The government Incentivizing people not to work. 

I mean, that's not what it's all about. 

With the massive unemployment right now, you have many instances where there are dual-income families where both couples are losing jobs through no fault of their own; just the devastation of the pandemic.  Losing long-entrenched careers, in many cases. And traditional unemployment simply isn't enough for them to make their bills and take care of families -- especially considering that the hiring field is also stagnant right now because many offices have put a stop on new work and hiring to contain budgets. This gets particularly difficult in professional fields, such as advertising, marketing and higher education (I work in a marketing office for a university, for instance). 

My wife and I have two kids. We both have full-time jobs. We live in Michigan, where the typical unemployment maximum is about $350/week. If we both lost our jobs, we could not pay our mortgage, keep up with our bills and feed our children under that (which also leads to more stagnation in the economy). Likewise, we couldn't even go get a part-time job delivering pizza to cover what is required after unemployment, because as soon as you start making income, unemployment switches off. So the extra from the government is essential -- even in the long-term, because many companies will still be laying off companies late into the year -- because it's literally just enough to keep us going in terms of mortgage, bills, food and other necessities were we to lose our jobs. 

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32 minutes ago, flightoffear1996 said:

And that is the problem. The government Incentivizing people not to work. 

Looks like your theory may be wrong.  Suprisingly it seems people are deciding to get jobs after all:

Nonfarm payrolls rose by 2.5 million after a 20.7 million tumble the prior month that was the largest in records back to 1939, according to Labor Department data Friday. The jobless rate fell to 13.3% from 14.7%

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Just thinking with fingers here:

I wonder if the hold-up on amusement parks has to do with a few factors. As others have stated, sure, CF might not be willing to make the changes the state feels are required. Maybe they were behind the ball in the first place moving to a virtual queue system (Universal is the first to open, but Universal had already been making strides in this area). And I honestly don't know how you do social distancing at an amusement park. Traditional queues seem to be a nightmare scenario. Then you add in that shows likely will have to be canceled (both because of distancing and because I can't imagine the shows were staffed and rehearsed by now) and sit-down restaurants will have to run at about half capacity -- you typically depend on shows and restaurants to keep people busy and reduce lines throughout the park, so now you have less places for people to go at a time you're already trying to reduce capacity. You're easily going to have to close attractions like the Eiffel Tower, because you can't have people crowding in an elevator or milling around together. And in the hot summer months, you're also going to have to close off fans in queue systems because that's another way to spread the virus. So people will be hot and miserable and either standing in long lines or sitting on benches, bored. How do you make it mandatory for people, especially children, to wear a mask all day in the summer heat? If the virus can be spread through singing in a choir, can it be spread through screaming on roller coasters? I'm not even going to imagine waterparks because those seem like wallowing in a petri dish even without a pandemic. 

So, CF tries to find a way to meet all these needs. And they're sinking cost after cost into these measures. I don't know if that's cheap or extremely expensive. But they're still spending money at a time when they're losing money because the parks are closed. And let's say they're looking at a target date of July 1. In Kings Island's case, that gives them about a month and a half of operation before most of their employees and local guests are back in school. In Cedar Point's case, you have until about Labor Day. And, sure, you have Haunt and (at Kings Island) Winterfest on the schedule...but there's the very real possibility of a virus resurgence, which could either prompt more lockdowns or simply keep people from coming out just out of precautions. It's also extra money to decorate, staff and run those things in a year where you've spent the first two quarters making nothing. Does opening even make financial sense at that point? 

Now, let's say they come up with a solution that the state is fine with and they can open. Now, you're attracting people from around the country to your park (we drive in from Detroit every year). You're bringing in people from out of state. But hotels and restaurants in the area are operating at reduced capacity as well. Where do you put the visitors? Where do you feed them? Do communities like Mason or Sandusky have to deal with the fact that locals can't eat at their restaurants because they're already at capacity with visitors? If it rains, these visitors are going to shopping malls and movie theaters that also have capacity issues. And they're very possibly bringing in cases of the virus that might be invisible since it takes up to two weeks to become symptomatic. And all it takes is a handful of people to bring it and suddenly, boom, we have another outbreak. 

Don't get me wrong: I want Kings Island to open and my son asks me questions every day about it. And if they open, we already have hotels booked (with cancellation guarantees) for late July. But the thing I tell him is that safety comes first, amusement parks aren't essential (although they very well may be for some local economies), and that there's a lot of expense in pulling this together. I know people want them to open and that Cedar Fair wants to make money. But the more I think about it, the more I simply see added headaches over and over. 

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3 hours ago, PilotDude said:

 

Not great, and IMHO it was a tactical error on the parks part, but the park is being pushed by the Warren County Commissioners so they are between a rock and a hard place.  Every other time someone has sued to reopen in Ohio and federal court, the courts side against the business and they stay closed but now with the added cost of court. The case wont be heard by a judge for 60-90 days, and then wont be ruled on for up to a year. And if at the end of a year if they are still closed, and not just reopened with the lifting of restrictions, now we begin the appeal process which is up to 3-5 years between cases.  The standard on how the courts will treat all of these cases is South Bay United Pentecostal Church v. Gavin Newsom, Governor of California.  This is a very recent supreme court ruling, and yes it is a ruling even thought they never heard arguments which is an extraordinary measure. But the Supreme Court upheld churches being closed, and churches have more autonomy to stay open then a business. Below is a telling paragraph and will be cited everywhere else to throw out these lawsuits.  All of this lawsuit did was make Kings Island a hostile party to the Governor, the park is being used as a pawn by the county commissioners and in the end the park is the one who will get hurt.

 

The precise question of when restrictions on particular social activities should be lifted during the pandemic is a dynamic and fact-intensive matter subject to reasonable disagreement. Our Constitution principally entrusts “[t]he safety and the health of the people” to the politically ac-countable officials of the States “to guard and protect.” Ja-cobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U. S. 11, 38 (1905). When those officials “undertake[] to act in areas fraught with medical and scientific uncertainties,” their latitude “must be especially broad.” Marshall v. United States, 414 U. S. 417, 427 (1974). Where those broad limits are not exceeded, they should not be subject to second-guessing by an “une-lected federal judiciary,” which lacks the background, com-petence, and expertise to assess public health and is not ac-countable to the people. See Garciav. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority, 469 U. S. 528, 545 (1985).

 

 

EDIT: 

So I have now had a chance to read the court filling in its entirety and it is not great.  If my lawyer filled this in court, I would be embarrassed with all of the cutting and pasting errors and obvious revision where things were removed but the grammar wasn't updated to reflect that.  "that  latitude  remains  subject  to  limitations imposed by both the Ohio Constitution", both what? In other parts they politicize the topic while in others they make claims that are illogical and go against existing law. "The Ohio Department of Health, its Director, and county health departments claim the authority to criminalize and fine operation of safe amusement and water parks." Yeah they do that every single day across the state and country, i.e. food safety laws.  This is blatantly nonfactual as they have set up a public board to review business objections to not being allowed to open, and other courts have upheld them as constitutional already, "without providing any process, venue, or judicial review to determine whether these Ohioans’ businesses are in fact safe enough to warrant operation". "This harm may only be remedied by a ruling from this Court, and Defendants must be immediately and permanently enjoined from imposing criminal, civil, or equitable sanctions on the safe operation of Ohio amusement and water parks including Plaintiffs."  This is not the only way they can be freed of a perceived harm, they could use the review boards already in place that the courts already view as acceptable, and courts typically look down on plaintiffs that could have received relief elsewhere and didn't attempt that route first. 

 

Long story short the lawsuit doesn't look like it will be ruled on in Cedar Fairs favor, but IMHO this wont even go to trial purely due to the speed of our court systems. Reading elsewhere on what Cedar Fair plans to do to reopen, they are lacking in a few key areas compared to other parks that have been allowed to open.  The biggest example is Cedar Fair believes they can safely social distance in a traditional que line whereas most every other chain has gone to a digital ride wait system.  My speculation and it is purely speculation is that Dewine wants them to go to a similar system and Cedar Fair up to this point hasn't been willing to or is unable for some other reason and that is the hold up.  Once they get this last sticking point worked out they will reopen with the rest of the parks, and remember only 1 park is operating in the entire country with everyone else due to open in the next week to couple months.  What ever Disney does is going to be the standard everyone else will be held too. They have experience reopening parks in other countries and are a pillar of society that people look up to for guidance.

I would look more to the lawsuit filed in Lake County Ohio in which the Gyms sued to be able to open, rather than the items you quoted.  The ruling happened very quickly and favorably for the gyms.

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20 minutes ago, teenageninja said:

I would look more to the lawsuit filed in Lake County Ohio in which the Gyms sued to be able to open, rather than the items you quoted.  The ruling happened very quickly and favorably for the gyms.

"the ruling affirms that facilities must follow Ohio Department of Health safety protocols to keep patrons and all Ohioans safe and healthy. These facilities were due to open Tuesday anyways. However, our office disagrees with the ruling’s analysis of law.” 

 

All Dewine would have to do is say we well the rules say no more then X people in a given area, and neither park has provided a plan on how to comply with that.  A great example of this is the fact Cedar Fair plans to use traditional que lines, the state would be able to argue that mass groups of people put into a small space can't be done in complacence with the rules. That is also a single case in the state where multiple other cases have been ruled against the business case in point, Gilded Social v. Amy Acton where a bridal shop was ruled against.  When we consider case law we can not look sideways but must look upwards, what did the appellate court rule, what about the supreme court what have they said?

 

I want the park to open just as much as everyone else, and do believe it can be done safe as is evident with other parks like Disney Shanghai opening. But this route was a poor choice for the park as the general thought is the parks were due to be announced in the next few days, most suspecting Friday the 5th anyways. I do not blame the park for this lawsuit either, they are under incredible pressure from the Warren County Commissioners that has been asking them to sue since the March.  The park is currently a pawn in a political game, a very unenviable position to be in.

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21 minutes ago, teenageninja said:

I would look more to the lawsuit filed in Lake County Ohio in which the Gyms sued to be able to open, rather than the items you quoted.  The ruling happened very quickly and favorably for the gyms.

I was just thinking the same think.

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4 minutes ago, PilotDude said:

"the ruling affirms that facilities must follow Ohio Department of Health safety protocols to keep patrons and all Ohioans safe and healthy. These facilities were due to open Tuesday anyways. However, our office disagrees with the ruling’s analysis of law.” 

 

All Dewine would have to do is say we well the rules say no more then X people in a given area, and neither park has provided a plan on how to comply with that.  A great example of this is the fact Cedar Fair plans to use traditional que lines, the state would be able to argue that mass groups of people put into a small space can't be done in complacence with the rules. That is also a single case in the state where multiple other cases have been ruled against the business case in point, Gilded Social v. Amy Acton where a bridal shop was ruled against.  When we consider case law we can not look sideways but must look upwards, what did the appellate court rule, what about the supreme court what have they said?

Maybe I've missed something along the way but how do we know that Cedar Fair is planning to use traditional queues?

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1 hour ago, THE_BEASTmaster said:

On the Diamondback webcam, it looks like the splashdown is filling up!c4dff66ef284a853a05647b97309e824.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fill it up fill it up so i can ride Diamondback the biggest fastest tallest longest meanest metal roller coaster ever to strike Kings Island!!!!!

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