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Long Lost Kings Island Proposed Coaster Rediscovered

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Why would you hire someone to build something if only a couple years earlier their product failed miserably.  It's like you hire someone to build your house, it collapses so you then hire the same people to build another.

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16 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Why would you hire someone to build something if only a couple years earlier their product failed miserably.  It's like you hire someone to build your house, it collapses so you then hire the same people to build another.

Because some times you get a big discount, which is what ended up happening. Same situation different model. The Bat failed. Kings Island got a discount on Vortex.

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20 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Why would you hire someone to build something if only a couple years earlier their product failed miserably.  It's like you hire someone to build your house, it collapses so you then hire the same people to build another.

Other kings said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show 'em! It sank into the swamp, so I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. I built a third one. It burned down, fell over, and then it sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up! 
Cant help but drop a reference.

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I've never seen it officially confirmed that KI was given any sort of a "discount" for Vortex.  Its long been a rumor, and could be true, but I personally have never seen it substantiated.  If anyone has printed material or quotes from park officials, I'd love to see it.

I think the reason KI chose to go with Arrow was likely multi-tiered.

- KI specifically wanted a high-thrill coaster with loops.  Most of the other manufacturers proposals were deemed too tame.

- Arrow had perfected the multi-inversion steel coaster by then.

- I believe there had been a management change at Arrow since "The Bat" had been built, Ron Toomer was now in charge and he was well respected.

- Arrow had a long-running, successful relationship with KI before The Bat.  Many of the parks rides... Screamin Demon, KCKC, Enchanted Voyage boats (I believe) etc etc etc... were Arrow products.

- The Arrow multi-loopers were things of beauty and awe.  I would suspect park officials were sold on something that would look immense, be HIGHLY marketable, and be a noteworthy use of the land.  Not to mention, IMO, it was the perfect "OOOOH AHHHHH replacement" following the embarrassing failure of The Bat.

The installation of The Bat was, what I understand to be, a development agreement between Arrow and KI.  Essentially, KI provided the land and funding for Arrow to flesh out their Suspended coaster concept.  Both the park and Arrow knew it was a prototype, and would require "tweaking."  However they obviously never expected the amount of issues and downtime it experienced.  Finally, TMK, the relationship with Arrow never "soured."  Again, I've heard that as a long-standing rumor, but never had it confirmed by anyone at the park.  Did the park ever file lawsuit against Arrow?  

Essentially, "The Bat's" development was what I percieve to be the same situation that PGA entered with Vekoma to develop Stealth in the late 1990/early 2000's.  Ultimately most of the operational consistency "kinks" were able to be worked out with Stealth... however it didn't suffer from as many severe engineering flaws that The Bat did.  The Bat was ahead of its time, unfortunately.  But ultimately the success of the suspended coasters and (IMO) inverted coasters that followed all have The Bat to thank.

 

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17 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

- Arrow had a long-running, successful relationship with KI before The Bat.  Many of the parks rides... Screamin Demon, KCKC, Enchanted Voyage boats (I believe) ... were Arrow products.

You're correct on Enchanted Voyage boats, plus the Turnpike, Antique Cars, Gulliver's Rub-a-Dub, Kings Mill Log Flume, and even the parking lot trams. Arrow built a lot of the original Kings Island... and a lot of most 1970's amusement parks.

Regarding the original post, I'm very curious where this supposed layout is coming from. Is CoasterNation taking the one line description of the proposed roller coaster from Cincinnati Enquirer, assuming the ride was comparable to the later Windjammer, and then making a custom layout? Or is it based on any blueprints or old concept art? If not (and if it's just from the mind of the creator), it seems a little misleading in my opinion to say that a long lost coaster has been "rediscovered".

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17 minutes ago, Shaggy said:

I've never seen it officially confirmed that KI was given any sort of a "discount" for Vortex.  Its long been a rumor, and could be true, but I personally have never seen it substantiated.  If anyone has printed material or quotes from park officials, I'd love to see it.

I think the reason KI chose to go with Arrow was likely multi-tiered.

- KI specifically wanted a high-thrill coaster with loops.  Most of the other manufacturers proposals were deemed too tame.

- Arrow had perfected the multi-inversion steel coaster by then.

- I believe there had been a management change at Arrow since "The Bat" had been built, Ron Toomer was now in charge and he was well respected.

- Arrow had a long-running, successful relationship with KI before The Bat.  Many of the parks rides... Screamin Demon, KCKC, Enchanted Voyage boats (I believe) ... were Arrow products.

- The Arrow multi-loopers were things of beauty and awe.  I would suspect park officials were sold on something that would look immense, be HIGHLY marketable, and be a noteworthy use of the land.  Not to mention, IMO, it was the perfect "replacement" following the embarrassing failure of The Bat.

The installation of The Bat was, what I understand to be, a development agreement between Arrow and KI.  Essentially, KI provided the land and funding for Arrow to flesh out their Suspended coaster concept.  Both the park and Arrow knew it was a prototype, and would require "tweaking."  However they obviously never expected the amount of issues and downtime it experienced.  Finally, TMK, the relationship with Arrow never "soured."  Again, I've heard that as a long-standing rumor, but never had it confirmed by anyone at the park.  Did the park ever file lawsuit against Arrow?  

Essentially, "The Bat's" development was what I percieve to be the same situation that PGA entered with Vekoma to develop Stealth in the late 1990/early 2000's.  Ultimately most of the operational consistency "kinks" were able to be worked out with Stealth... however it didn't suffer from as many severe engineering flaws that The Bat did.

 

Also, when The Bat was built it was Arrow-Huss. Now the company split, and Arrow was at the reigns, it probably became a much more preferred working partner. I’d say if Huss was still in the picture, the outcome would have been very different.

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Just now, TombraiderTy said:

You're correct on Enchanted Voyage boats, plus the Turnpike, Antique Cars, Gulliver's Rub-a-Dub, Kings Mill Log Flume, and even the parking lot trams. Arrow built a lot of the original Kings Island... and a lot of most 1970's amusement parks.

Regarding the original post, I'm very curious where this supposed layout is coming from. Is CoasterNation taking the one line description of the proposed roller coaster from Cincinnati Enquirer, assuming the ride was comparable to the later Windjammer, and then making a custom layout? Or is it based on any blueprints or old concept art? If not (and if it's just from the mind of the creator), it seems a little misleading in my opinion to say that a long lost coaster has been "rediscovered".

I wondered the same thing.  I have never seen any official blueprints or renderings of the "proposed" coaster.  So I think this layout is just a fan-based conception - nothing more.

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41 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

A large scale schwartzkoff would have been awesome.

I have always loved Schwarzkopf coasters.  Shockwave at Six Flags Over Texas, and Mindbender at Six Flags Over Georgia are two HIGHLY underrated coasters (and personal favorites.)  Also, Revolution (pre and post shoulder restraints), SuperDooperLooper, Montezoomas Revenge and Whizzer are dont misses at their respective parks.)  As a kid growing up in Virginia, I was spoiled... I had BGW's Glissade and Wildkat coasters as well as Kings Dominion's King Cobra shuttle loop to enjoy year after year.

I've wondered if KI officials (Dave Focke) might have visited the Mindbender at West Edmonton mall when it opened in 1985 as they courted proposals for the forthcoming new coaster.  Chances are, they (he) might have.  Unfortunately just a year later - June 1986 - the Mindbender suffered a HORRIFIC accident.  Ultimately a design flaw by Schwarzkopf and poor maintenance were found as the cause.  I expect, if KI had seriously considered a Schwarzkopf, they probably breathed a sigh of relief that they had not suffered such an incident.

BTW - trivia - Wener Stengel was involved with the overall design of most of the Schwarzkopf coasters - including Mindbender.  He ultimately worked with KI.... on Son of Beast.  I've always "heard" he was/is an extremist - pushing for taller, faster, more extreme... yet I also have been told he would not ride coasters. LOL!  (But in fairness, thats true of many coaster designers & engineers... Ron Toomer, Al Collins and, I believe, John Allen.)

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The CCI fan in me wishes the woodie alleged to go where DB is now came to fruition.  

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^ It would have great if when they were looking at building SOB, that they would just done Shivering Timbers 2.0.  That would have been a great addition.

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1 hour ago, silver2005 said:

The CCI fan in me wishes the woodie alleged to go where DB is now came to fruition.  

Sorry to burst your bubble, that wasn’t a CCI. That would have been KI by themselves.

The coaster they were building in the lake area would have definitely been neat.

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On a related note, there is a late-70s documentary hosted by Vincent Price called America Screams. In it, the doc details the various trends in rollercoaster design, including the then-current looper craze. It also features interviews with Arrow personnel and teases their suspended coaster prototype. 

While it is cheesy (and wonderfully very 70s), I consider this documentary essential viewing. If not for the interviews and vintage ride footage, there's the imagery of Price narrating while riding a coaster. (Maybe pair it up with 1977's Rollercoaster, partially filmed at KD.)

From it, I do believe there is enough to surmise why KI might want a looper over the other designs. It was tried, trued, and exciting. 

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3 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, that wasn’t a CCI. That would have been KI by themselves.

The coaster they were building in the lake area would have definitely been neat.

There was a proposed woodie where DB is now? I haven't heard about that one.

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31 minutes ago, BringBackOurEagles said:

There was a proposed woodie where DB is now? I haven't heard about that one.

There was indeed. It’s been widely discussed

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9 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

Other kings said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show 'em! It sank into the swamp, so I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. I built a third one. It burned down, fell over, and then it sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up! 
Cant help but drop a reference.

And The Vortex never sank into the swamp.

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36 minutes ago, CorkscrewMcPuke said:

And The Vortex never sank into the swamp.

Sorry, but this comment calls for this.

You may continue with your regularly scheduled discussion.

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24 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

Sorry, but this comment calls for this.

You may continue with your regularly scheduled discussion.

I still laugh every time I watch this scene.

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1 hour ago, Klabergian Empire said:

Just riding along and boom...

...arrow through the heart...

"Message for you, Sir" 

LANCELOT: Concorde! Concorde! Speak to me! 'To whoever finds this note: I have been imprisoned by my father, who wishes me to marry against my will. Please, please, please come and rescue me. I am in the Tall Tower of Swamp Castle.' At last! A call! A cry of distress! This could be the sign that leads us to the Holy Grail! Brave, brave Concorde, you shall not have died in vain! 

CONCORDE: Uh, I'm-- I'm not quite dead, sir. 

LANCELOT: Well, you shall not have been mortally wounded in vain! 

CONCORDE: I-- I-- I think I c-- I could pull through, sir. 

LANCELOT: Oh, I see. 

CONCORDE: Actually, I think I'm all right to come with you, sir-- 

LANCELOT: No, no, sweet Concorde! Stay here! I will send help as soon as I have accomplished a daring and heroic rescue in my own particular...
 

Can we all just admit how quotable that movie is? 

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6 hours ago, gforce1994 said:

There was indeed. It’s been widely discussed

Sorry to bother but is there a thread on here? I'm looking for details but can't seem to find any.

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30 minutes ago, BringBackOurEagles said:

Sorry to bother but is there a thread on here? I'm looking for details but can't seem to find any.

I don’t mean to sound self-promotional, but there will be a portion in my book about it.

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Just now, KIghostguy said:

I don’t mean to sound self-promotional, but there will be a portion in my book about it.

I can't wait that long

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13 hours ago, Shaggy said:

- KI specifically wanted a high-thrill coaster with loops.  Most of the other manufacturers proposals were deemed too tame.

- Arrow had a long-running, successful relationship with KI before The Bat.  Many of the parks rides... Screamin Demon, KCKC, Enchanted Voyage boats (I believe) etc etc etc... were Arrow products.

 

THIS.

People forget Vortex was a multi-record breaking roller coaster when it opened. KI and Arrow had a good, tight relationship before and after The Bat. KI was always comfortable and knew the risks installing unproven prototypes even up to when Paramount owned the park (Flight of Fear, SOB, Tomb Raider, Delirium). Cedar Fair has a different strategy and so far hasn't built any first of it's kind or record breakers in KI.

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