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SonofBaconator

Could Infinity Flyers replace current Millennium Flyers?

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Unless the trains wear out and can't be repaired, I don't see it. Why spend the money?

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53 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Do you think we'd see these type of trains on Mystic Timbers in the future to update the ride as it ages? Also do you think we'll ever see KI opt for these type of trains for their other wooden coasters like Racer and The Beast?

infinity flyers.jpeg

Photo credit: https://KICentral.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34012-iaapa-2018/

 

Nope. Those trains are much heavier than the current trains and would be very expensive to reinforce the support structure.

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1 hour ago, SonofBaconator said:

Do you think we'd see these type of trains on Mystic Timbers in the future to update the ride as it ages? Also do you think we'll ever see KI opt for these type of trains for their other wooden coasters like Racer and The Beast?

infinity flyers.jpeg

Photo credit: https://KICentral.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34012-iaapa-2018/

 

GCI said they expect to put Infinity Flyers only on new installations. Maybe if we get some crazy inverting GCI to replace Vortex, we will see these trains, but I doubt the park would put these on Mystic Timbers. However, they were tested on White Lightning at Fun Spot, so they probably would be compatible with Mystic Timbers.

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Also, I doubt they could match the capacity of Beast's and Racer's current configurations (36 and 30 seats respectively, compared to Mystic Timber's - and GCI standard - 24).

On a side note, crazy to think there was a time Beast sat 40 per train.

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This is a random question but related to trains. Does anyone know the different lengths for different types of wooden coaster trains. Like given that they are all 24 passengers trains how long would timberliners compare to millennium fliers and the different types or ptc’s. Would also really be interested in knowing the different weights if anyone knows that?

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6 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

Do you think we'd see these type of trains on Mystic Timbers in the future to update the ride as it ages? Also do you think we'll ever see KI opt for these type of trains for their other wooden coasters like Racer and The Beast?

infinity flyers.jpeg

Photo credit: https://KICentral.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34012-iaapa-2018/

 

First off, why would they even do that? PTC is still in business and can easily get the park parts it needs for PTC trains. Second, if that ever happens, it would most likely happen to Mystic Timbers. And finally, if they ever replace PTC trains on Racer and The Beast, it would completely ruin the ride experience for me period.

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3 minutes ago, Klabergian Empire said:

if they ever replace PTC trains on Racer and The Beast, it would completely ruin the ride experience for me period.

I personally disagree, I'd argue Millennium Flyers would enhance the ride experiences on The Beast and Racer. Unless it has a buzz bar, PTC trains don't do a lot for me. I feel more cramped in Racer and The Beast's trains vs Mystic Timbers' and I'm an average build. I know its all opinion but if they announced they'd be experimenting Millennium Flyers on The Beast and/or Racer I wouldn't be mad.

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3 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I personally disagree, I'd argue Millennium Flyers would enhance the ride experiences on The Beast and Racer. Unless it has a buzz bar, PTC trains don't do a lot for me. I feel more cramped in Racer and The Beast's trains vs Mystic Timbers' and I'm an average build. I know its all opinion but if they announced they'd be experimenting Millennium Flyers on The Beast and/or Racer I wouldn't be mad.

I also think millennium flyer trains would be awesome on The Beast and racer but there’s a couple of problems. 1 millennium flyers are a lot lighter than ptc trains. I’m not sure if with 24 car trains the trains would make it through the course of The Beast or racer than your also running into the issue of reduced capacity. Unless gci is willing to make an exception and do an extended version of the trains then it would probably be able to run on The Beast in a combination with reduced trims to compensate for the lost speed. 
 

there is still another problem though and that is that millennium flyers and timberliners need a significant re-tracking done first on rides that have been running ptc trains for years. The heavy ptc trains kill the tracks and when you add the light trains they shuffle around badly and make the ride expierence rougher than what it was before. This is what happened with rides like the voyage and Gwazi. If you can retrack The Beast than add new trains that would save you money in the long run because the lighter trains won’t put on as much stress as the ptc but I don’t know if Kings Island is willing to put in all that money. 

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I'd imagine that the newer trains would also glide across the track easier, so that might actually increase the speed. But could you imagine an 18-21 row millennium/timberliner lol Would give such different rides in the back and front. I could see them doing it on racer or beast if they plan to keep either around for another 20 years. The initial capital investment would be quite large, but the cost savings would likely pay for themselves within a couple years. Cedar Fair has really focused on cutting expensive rides to run in recent years, so this could be a cheap way to upgrade their current rides and reduce the variable costs of maintenance that they incur each year. Who knows, maybe with Beast, they could do a little bit of track reprofiling on the first section right after the first tunnel. That's always been the weakest part of the ride IMO.

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My thoughts on this are pretty similar to what others have said. I don’t see KI ever using those. Mystic Timbers is still very new in terms of a wooden coaster, so there’s no reason to replace trains already. Also, as gforce1994 mentioned, there’s quite a weight difference between these trains and the others.

For Racer and Beast, I still don’t see them ever using these trains. I don’t think they’d match the style at all and I could see Kings Island not wanting to deviate from the current look and feel of those rides.

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I don't see this happening, but never say never. Wasn't it rumored that Beast and Racer might get G-Trains around the time SoB did? I think they were the old Villain and Raging Wolf Bobs trains.

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8 hours ago, IceePirate said:

I'd imagine that the newer trains would also glide across the track easier, so that might actually increase the speed. But could you imagine an 18-21 row millennium/timberliner lol Would give such different rides in the back and front. I could see them doing it on racer or beast if they plan to keep either around for another 20 years. The initial capital investment would be quite large, but the cost savings would likely pay for themselves within a couple years. Cedar Fair has really focused on cutting expensive rides to run in recent years, so this could be a cheap way to upgrade their current rides and reduce the variable costs of maintenance that they incur each year. Who knows, maybe with Beast, they could do a little bit of track reprofiling on the first section right after the first tunnel. That's always been the weakest part of the ride IMO.

Less weighted trains go slower. Hades 360 had to get a hill reprofiled when they switched to timberliners. Son of Beast had to get its loop removed when it get lighter trains. 

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Well millennium flyer trains are not good for airtime, a lot of enthusiasts feel the same.  And no one has ridden an infinity train, but I would think they would be very similar to millennium flyer trains just able to be used with inversions.

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4 minutes ago, coaster sally said:

Well millennium flyer trains are not good for airtime, a lot of enthusiasts feel the same.

I get a lot of airtime on MT. There is a lot of great airtime moments on Ghostrider at Knotts.  I don't get that statement at all. 

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Swapping a train on a wood coaster is not the same as changing a train on a steel coaster.  The steel track is largely unchanging and the rails and trains are held to much tighter tolerances.  While on a wood coaster there is a lot more room for movement and overtime the wood will conform to how the train travels through the course.  Since each train design has a different wheel base or if it even has the ability to turn at all and just shuffles through the turns, each train design ends up taking its own line through the elements.  The problem is after running a set of trains for a few years the track essentially is damaged in a specific way based on those trains, the potholes, and bumps are not an issue for those trains because that is just how the train rides.

But if the trains are swapped out for a different set of trains that suddenly are trying to roll over those issues riders will find the new trains extremely rough, often worse then if the original trains had been kept.  Any move to a different train should also be part of a major refurbishment which needs to include a complete re-tracking.  Which is why its unlikely this will occur anytime soon.  The trains are something like a million dollars each, plus a few million for the re-tracking and upgrading something like The Racer or The Beast becomes a $10 million dollar job and with such large coasters likely something which would need the ride to be shut down for part of a season to complete the work since I suspect it could be hard to complete in a single off season.  Also justifying that kind of expense is difficult.

Millennium Flyers to Infinity Flyers, is likely easier, but I have no idea why the park would even consider it.

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Agreed, lots of pops of airtime on MT.  I'll say the same about renegade @ Valleyfair!

Never been Ghost Rider (let alone to Knotts) but based on the POV, it looks like it has a ton of floater hills.

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To me, Millennium Flyers are my favorite wooden trains out there by a mile.  PTC's do have their own character, but I find myself limited to where I sit on them because there are only certain seats to me that are comfortable (front wheel seats on 4 seaters and front and middle rows on 6 seaters).  On MF's, all the seats are good and you can do more intense elements due to the fact that they are articulated designs over the more clunky multi-row designs of PTC's or others.  GCI's also age incredibly well due to how they track better.  On GCI's, I feel I'm more out of my seat than in them in terms of airtime. 

Timberliners, to me, are over-engineered.  I felt on Kentucky Flyer, it was hugging the track to much and I could feel every little bump through the course.  It felt not unlike driving on the rumble strip on a highway the entire time.  Not a fan of the restraints either (not entirely detrimental, but being so used to PTC and MF restraints, TL's are inferior). 

PTC's are my favorite in terms of multi-row trains to me.  The only other companies' trains I've done in this category are Gerstlauers (which are alright on coasters not named SOB, but they bump you around more than PTC's), Intamin (no complaints there, but they use a different method to build their woodies so its kind of like an apples and oranges comparison) and Premier (the original SOB trains which are garbage).  I've yet to ride Morgan wooden trains so no opinion there. 

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Something I didn't consider while asking the original question is the track condition. Ghostrider got Millennium Flyers but they also got a retrack by them.

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24 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Something I didn't consider while asking the original question is the track condition. Ghostrider got Millennium Flyers but they also got a retrack by them.

Ghostrider was more than just a retracking, GCI reprofiled elements and changed the banking of the track throughout the coaster, about 40% of the track is in a slightly different location then before the refurbishment.  It is a great example of what is possible, but the ride will be a different experience afterwards.

If you want an example of how it can go wrong just look at Gwazi.  It had Millennium Flyers put on the track after running PTC trains for years.  It ended up being a disaster and the ride went SBNO after a few years.  I remember the ride running extremely rough, worse then I ever remember with the PTC trains.  Because of how large of a disaster Gwazi was I have heard GCI will now only sell trains for a swap if the ride also experiences a major refurbishment.

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I have heard that BGT wasn't keen on upkeeping Gwazi pre-Millennium Flyers, so I think that has something to do with it, too.  I don't recall Wildcat at HP getting a re-tracking and it certainly didn't feel that way when I rode it a few years ago and it runs stellar. 

I also think warmer climates have something to do with it as I hear SFMM's (who also isn't good at wood coaster upkeep) Apocalypse can be disappointing in its roughness.

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14 minutes ago, silver2005 said:

I also think warmer climates have something to do with it as I hear SFMM's (who also isn't good at wood coaster upkeep) Apocalypse can be disappointing in its roughness.

Apocalypse was absolutely terrible when I rode it in February. I was so disappointed. 

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2 hours ago, IndyGuy4KI said:

Apocalypse was absolutely terrible when I rode it in February. I was so disappointed. 

With all do respect, it had just got done with a lengthy retracking.

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I'm really sad that I missed Apocalypse in June, hopefully it'll run much better than it has in the past, the park had extremely high hopes for it too when they put it in, I guess anything is better than what was there before... Anyway on the topic of the Infinity Flyer, as stated they look really heavy and I don't think a structure that is almost 50 years old (Racer) would be able to support this without absolutely destroying the track, same thing with Timberliners, I'm not sure how heavy they are, but I feel like Timberliners are really meant for aggressive wooden coasters, I've only ridden one Timberliner roller coaster, and that was Hades 360, and I think the Timberliner trains ran extremely well, and made the ride extremely intense, but not rough, and the ride sits in my top 10 overall. (Also I'd like to say there's a very common missperception on that park that everything is poorly maintained, I think their wooden coasters are extremely well maintained other than Pegasus, but I think that's just bad design, but everything else not so much..) I think PTCs on older rides run just fine personally, and I just can't see The Beast or Racer running with a Millennium Flyer, Infinity Flyer, or Timberliner.

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Those trains are hideous.  They look like a rolling easy chair.  

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I have no issues with how the PTC trains run on any of Kings Island's coasters.  I just wish they would make another update to the restraint system.  The current ratcheting restraints and seat dividers are not original, and are currently the biggest drawback in my opinion. 

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58 minutes ago, flightoffear1996 said:

The way the bar on the PTC trains come down make me angle my legs inward. 

This^^^^^.  I wish that, especially given the seat belts as a secondary restraint, that the lap bar could just be an "L" shape, with the anchor in the middle, as opposed to the current "U" shape.  This would still give two independent lap bars, but not have them so tight width-wise....

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