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What new attraction would make the best sense for KI?


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On 6/12/2021 at 11:46 PM, SonofBaconator said:

Weather management wants to invest in them as full-time ride buildings versus convenient haunted houses has been evident for a while.

That having said, it should be noted that Mike Koontz has said on several occasion that he's not a fan of the underutilized buildings either.

He's commented on the Crypt building in particular (at 2018 Coasterstock and in A Ride Through Time).

He's said that he definitely wants something other than a Haunt maze to go into the Crypt building eventually, he just doesn't know what that would be at the moment.

Whether it be a ride or something else only time will tell, but let it be known that management (at least, current management) does have interest in investing in underused infrastructure.

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On 6/13/2021 at 7:36 AM, Rivertown Rider said:

I completely agree about using the Crypt building and the more flats piece. 

Something that could work in the Crypt building is a Flying Theater like Soarin'.  That would be a space they could also do a custom built Phantom Theater redo as well.

I wonder if a Screamin' Swing would fit in there. I kind of doubt it, but that's never been done before (to my knowledge). 

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The park has many holes and it really depends on which demographic are they trying to bring to the park.

Show me the low impact rides that KI has that brings grandma and grandpa to the park to spend money.


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5 minutes ago, shark6495 said:

The park has many holes and it really depends on which demographic are they trying to bring to the park.

Show me the low impact rides that KI has that brings grandma and grandpa to the park to spend money.


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That is true! I really think we need a ferris wheel of some type. My dream would be a large skywheel with enclosed cars and an awesome lighting package. Would be another ride to run during Winterfest.

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3 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Or just tear down the crypt building and start from scratch. You could definitely fit something like Maverick there. Imagine a Maverick coaster there ripping through the woods like The Beast does. 

I copied and pasted Maverick there and it fits (made sure it was to scale as much as possible)

 

2021-06-17_13.56.40.jpg

Please don't tear out any more trees. In all honesty we don't need intensity. Only a certain age range can deal with intense rides. Look at I-305

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8 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Please don't tear out any more trees. In all honesty we don't need intensity. Only a certain age range can deal with intense rides. Look at I-305

Obviously not something like I-305. That was basically pushing the limits of too intense. Maverick while being intense is tolerable for the average guest and is very popular which is why it always has a full shaded part of queue and sometimes a full queue. 

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On 6/17/2021 at 5:41 PM, SonofBaconator said:

Please don't tear out any more trees. In all honesty we don't need intensity. Only a certain age range can deal with intense rides. Look at I-305

I definitely agree on the trees. As far as intense rides go, I think the great thing about having 10+ roller coasters is that they all don't have to appeal to the entire group of coaster riders.

 KI has already done this with the family and milder thrill segment, (Adventure Express, Backlot) but hasn't put money into the extreme intensity/forces part of the spectrum at KI (which today I'd say consist of mostly RMC's and Intamin).

Just as not every food option is for everyone, I'm ok with not every coaster being for everyone. In the same vane, only a portion of guests go to the waterpark on a consistent basis. Some go all summer, but never go to Haunt. Sometimes one thing you love can be worth more than three things you like.

35 minutes ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

I'm here right now and just imagine the big ugly box gone and a Maverick like coaster right here:

That would be nice, but a big part of me would like to see something along the lines of the old Keelboat Canal. That would bring a lot of Rivertown feel back to the area. I know water rides are not en vogue right now, but someone has to start any given trend. If I were a betting man though, I would say that the next attraction on that site will utilize that building in some way. It's just too big of an asset to part with.

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Here's an easy solution, just bring the log flume theme back into Rivertown and then create a better transition between PS and Rivertown. You could also relocate Linus Launcher or remove it and put a new building or even a stage in Rivertown similar to the stage being used for the live music at Frontier Festival at Cedar Point. 

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6 hours ago, KI Guy said:

I definitely agree on the trees. As far as intense rides go, I think the great thing about having 10+ roller coasters is that they all don't have to appeal to the entire group of coaster riders.

 KI has already done this with the family and milder thrill segment, (Adventure Express, Backlot) but hasn't put money into the extreme intensity/forces part of the spectrum at KI (which today I'd say consist of mostly RMC's and Intamin).

Just as not every food option is for everyone, I'm ok with not every coaster being for everyone. In the same vane, only a portion of guests go to the waterpark on a consistent basis. Some go all summer, but never go to Haunt. Sometimes one thing you love can be worth more than three things you like.

I understand your logic, I'm arguing that when you get an intense ride you limit your ROI if you're trying to appeal to a certain demographic.

Intensity can be fun, but just how intense is something to consider.

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13 hours ago, KI Guy said:

That would be nice, but a big part of me would like to see something along the lines of the old Keelboat Canal.

I'm pretty sure that's actually what used to be there before they built Tomb Raider: The Ride. Someone I know has this whole conspiracy that Kings Island, eventually, plans on removing the log flume ride in Planet Snoopy. He said that the park would remove the log flume ride and replace it with a "Maverick-style" attraction, like Cedar Point did. Of course, that instead ended up being Mystic Timbers, which did NOT involve the removal of the log flume ride.

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On 6/17/2021 at 2:23 PM, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

That is true! I really think we need a ferris wheel of some type. My dream would be a large skywheel with enclosed cars and an awesome lighting package. Would be another ride to run during Winterfest.

I might've been hearing things, but I think there was a short time when Kings Island actually had a ferris wheel! I'd have to recheck my Kings Island history book. But yes, I do agree with what you said about the ferris wheel. The only problem though that I could possibly think of with installing a ferris wheel at Kings Island would be the location of the ride, like where it would go. But other than that, I think a ferris wheel would be a great addition to the park's attraction lineup!

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12 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I understand your logic, I'm arguing that when you get an intense ride you limit your ROI if you're trying to appeal to a certain demographic.

Intensity can be fun, but just how intense is something to consider.

I think it just depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as limiting your ROI. While one demographic is turned off another is more enthused. I do recognize there are limits to this like the previously mentioned Intimidator 305.

I think the park is big enough that they can have a very intense coaster and be fine. There will be some who come to the park just for that. I know that's not the usual approach with what has become a rather conservative publicly owned company. The board wants to see they spent X on the 202X investments and increased revenue by Y dollars. They don't want to see that they spent X on shoring up a smaller demographic for Y years, made the park ride lineup more diverse/distinctive and additional revenue is less clear. Since coasters are 25+ year investments, I think it's shortsighted to only think of how it will increase pass or ticket sales the first year or the second, but I know why public companies think so short term which acknowledges your point. 

The fact that the intense rides from RMC and Intamin exist, at least to an extent, proves that "something for everyone" can be accomplished with a more diverse group of rides rather than a large number of the "crowd pleaser" type of rides of B&M.

I think KI had done a good job to not "overlap" their rides until Orion came out and provided a fairly similar feel to Diamondback. If the lineup was better before Orion and with Firehawk and Vortex can be debated, but few could argue it was not more diverse. The diversity I think means more time in the park because it limits "we already rode Orion so we can skip Diamondback etc."

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5 hours ago, Dj325 said:

Someone I know has this whole conspiracy that Kings Island, eventually, plans on removing the log flume ride in Planet Snoopy. He said that the park would remove the log flume ride and replace it with a "Maverick-style" attraction, like Cedar Point did. Of course, that instead ended up being Mystic Timbers, which did NOT involve the removal of the log flume ride.

And that someone happens to be me lol. I came up with that theory as a joke in my crew's group chat. Last year, I got sent to the log flume to work it and had a bad experience there so I have this small hatred towards it, but I understand its appeal to the families and such so I think it'll be around for years to come as long as they can keep in maintained. 

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I actually have a Kings Island theory of my own. My theory is that the park will remove the Backlot Stunt Coaster and combine its land with the old Vortex land and use it to build massive Gerslauer infinity coaster! (Sorry if misspelled the manufacturer's name)

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23 minutes ago, Dj325 said:

I actually have a Kings Island theory of my own. My theory is that the park will remove the Backlot Stunt Coaster and combine its land with the old Vortex land and use it to build massive Gerslauer infinity coaster! (Sorry if misspelled the manufacturer's name)

The Vortex plot is plenty big for that. 

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4 hours ago, KI Guy said:

I think it just depends on how you look at it. I don't see it as limiting your ROI. While one demographic is turned off another is more enthused. I do recognize there are limits to this like the previously mentioned Intimidator 305.

I think the park is big enough that they can have a very intense coaster and be fine. There will be some who come to the park just for that. I know that's not the usual approach with what has become a rather conservative publicly owned company. The board wants to see they spent X on the 202X investments and increased revenue by Y dollars. They don't want to see that they spent X on shoring up a smaller demographic for Y years, made the park ride lineup more diverse/distinctive and additional revenue is less clear. Since coasters are 25+ year investments, I think it's shortsighted to only think of how it will increase pass or ticket sales the first year or the second, but I know why public companies think so short term which acknowledges your point. 

The fact that the intense rides from RMC and Intamin exist, at least to an extent, proves that "something for everyone" can be accomplished with a more diverse group of rides rather than a large number of the "crowd pleaser" type of rides of B&M.

I think KI had done a good job to not "overlap" their rides until Orion came out and provided a fairly similar feel to Diamondback. If the lineup was better before Orion and with Firehawk and Vortex can be debated, but few could argue it was not more diverse. The diversity I think means more time in the park because it limits "we already rode Orion so we can skip Diamondback etc."

I feel like Orion has made Diamondback a stepping stone coaster. Diamondback isn't as tall as Orion and has a ton of calm floater airtime. Personally I'll still ride both if I can.

It would be awesome to have a coaster with the intensity of Maverick, I just don't know if Cedar Fair is willing to give us that. After the chain bought us in 2006, they were pretty conservative with the additions they gave us- 3 B&Ms and a GCI is as safe as you can get. Intensity can be risky so I suppose the question is, is Cedar Fair willing to take risks on our park? I argue not but other people's opinions might differ. I believe Cedar Fair is more willing to take risks with parks like Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, Carowinds, CGA,  and even KD; heck even Dorney is rumored to get that wooden shuttle.

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4 hours ago, SonofBaconator said:

I argue not but other people's opinions might differ. I believe Cedar Fair is more willing to take risks with parks like Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, Carowinds, CGA,  and even KD; heck even Dorney is rumored to get that wooden shuttle.

Consider me one who differs...

The question I would ask is whether or not the totality of what has been built at several of the parks listed is really all that more "risky" than Diamondback + Banshee + MT + Orion.

I would argue not. Or at least, I wouldn't consider Behemoth, Leviathan, or Yukon Striker to involve any greater "risk" than anyone of KI's slate of recent major coasters. I get that YS broke some categorical records and Leviathan was B&M's first giga, but any B&M I would argue is inherently not a risk given their unmatched refinement standards and attention to detail. 

Then you have Carowinds. Intimidator was no more of a risk than Diamondback or Behemoth (That risk being essentially zero). Fury may have greater stats than Orion but like I said any B&M by default is not a risky investment. And then Copperhead Strike - A Mack multilauncher built 10 years after the first Mack multi-launcher in blue fire megacoaster at Europa Park.

Cedar Point has had SV, which yes, was as ambitious as any, but even consider the fact that Cedar Fair waited 7 years after the first RMC was built in 2011 in New Texas Giant to finally come around to the relatively "new" technology. Before that, CP built GateKeeper and Valravn which - like Yukon Striker - were categorical record breakers at the time of opening but nothing that I would consider to be risky for reasons stated above.

I would argue that the chain as a whole has trended toward "safer" investments. At least, based on the commonly cited criteria.

If anything, I'd argue that the industry in general has had less risky rides built in recent years if even for the simple fact of how much the technology has improved and how much has been refined.

In other words, there is not as much risk involved in rides anymore simply because manufacturers by and large have gotten so much better at what they do.

Think about it.

Would something like The Chiller happen today? Hypersonic XLC?

Probably not, but not because of "not wanting to take risks", but simply because both S&S and Premier, to name a couple examples, have learned from those rides and have made successful versions of them since then.

There has been nothing built in the last ten years that I would I consider a complete failure outside of I guess Ring Racer? And even that was in 2013. S&S has made three Air Compressed Launchers since then and none have encountered any significant issues as far as I know.

Even Intamins built in the 2010s do not seem to encounter nearly as many issues as the 2000s Intamins. Abandoning the hydraulic launch for more reliable LSMs was a major improvement in reliability for them I would say...

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@BeastForever anything comes with a risk. I'm arguing intensity warrants greater risk and therefore warrants greater caution. I'm not suggesting we build a 170mph Intamin or a spinning B&M, but with intensity comes risk.

B&Ms are crowd pleasers because they do just that- appeal to crowds. I'm seen older folks who ride B&Ms like Diamondback, Orion, GateKeeper, Valravn, etc. These rides feature height, speed, and the ladder two have inversions, but all lack intensity. Now some of your old school B&Ms are more intense because you have tighter elements, OTSRs and older designs but those are older. Intensity doesn't age well. I found myself more willing to reride GateKeeper and Valravn over Raptor and Rougarou because they were too intense for my liking.

If you design an intense ride that people in the child-40s demographic, you're limiting your ROI. Intensity might appeal to the enthusiasts and the high thrill seekers but are you going to get that ROI that you would with a tamer ride? Look at Copperhead Strike, a multi launch built by a company known for having underwhelming launches. Low acceleration and hangtime are not intense when you compare it to something like Maverick or Storm Runner. The difference is the lack of intensity allows a wider range of people to ride it thus creating a greater ROI. 

I argue parks would be better off having something less intense if more people of multiple ages could ride it vs something more intense that a certain age group could enjoy. KI isn't in a competitive market like some parks are. Intensity is just not a risk a park like ours should take.

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^ I get all that, it's just that I'm not seeing how, based on the coasters built since Cedar Fair's ownership of the parks, KI's strategy has been all that different from that of Carowinds and CW.

None of the coasters built at the three parks would be considered overly intense by most standards, and as you said, Copperhead Strike is relatively tame for a multilauncher.

That having said, as this discussion pertains to CS, I'd say it's worth noting that Carowinds lacked any kind of launched coaster prior to that. They also sorely lacked a solid intermediate coaster as I've seldom heard good things about any one of Hurler, Carolina Goldrusher, or Ricochet.

It makes sense that CS was designed the way it was because it really checked off two boxes that were missing for Carowinds.

If a new launch coaster were to come KI, it wouldn't be out of the question for it to be significantly more intense than CS considering what we already have.

Unlike Carowinds, we already have several solid intermediate coasters in The Bat, BLSC, Racer, and Adventure Express,

We also already have two launchers (which admittedly management may see as enough reason to avoid the launched route entirely) - the fastest of which maxing out at 54 mph.

So in conclusion, you're certainly right that designing rides for a broad range of audiences is one thing.

I'm just saying taking into consideration what a park already has, and trying to fill gaps in terms of variety, is another.

--

That having said, despite all the coaster discussion I will humbly admit that nothing makes more sense to be KI's next ride than a flat ride of some sort.

While the appetite for "the next coaster" discussion may be insatiable, even this shortly after the opening of the latest one (which, I admit myself as guilty of this as anyone)...

...let's be real. We could really use a flat. ;)

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The new Fonix (Fenix, sorry on the spelling) coming to the smaller park in Denmark next year from Vekoma is about 15 million USD when you do the conversion of what they are paying. It looks very similar to Lech Coaster (Bermuda Blitz). I think that would be an outstanding fit for The Vortex plot both in terms of cost and guest satisfaction. Comfortable over the shoulder vests, combo of airtime and inversions, could be marketed as the first of its kind in North America and the station fly by inversion would be a real wow element for the general public, at least in my opinion. They'd need to work out a way to run 3 trains at KI, but otherwise I think it looks phenomenal. 

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3 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

A little off topic, but in the recent video on KI's YouTube channel, it looks like Jamie Gaffney is going through some large papers and they have them blurred. Probably means nothing, but kinda interesting. 

https://youtu.be/iedoKPfY8aA

 

 

Screenshot_20210701-143559.png

Most likely just the prints for a previous ride, but we can dream right?

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5 hours ago, Hawaiian Coasters 325 said:

Could be or it could be something. I think they're probably blurring them up for this exact reason lol. 

Keep in mind blueprints need to be drawn for basically all construction projects and not just new rides. The blueprints could be for something like restrooms or a restaurant. I assume the blueprints are not for a past addition because they wouldn’t have to hide them, but they could also be trying to mess with us. Anyone want to go and check Mason’s offices for new blueprints? LOL!

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