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50th Anniversary Updates


FUN&ONLY!
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17 minutes ago, kirbias1 said:

Yes, I love Knott's. Fantastic park!  But If Cedar Point was located in Southern California, do you think Knott's would still get this ride? That's what i've been saying about KI being in the same state as CP. I just think we get scaled down rides and downgraded  in other ways becuase CP doesn't want KI to outshine them in any way.  

Orion being "scaled down" was Kings Island's choice. They wanted a giga, but they also wanted a ride that people of all ages would be able to ride over and over again comfortably. It had nothing to do with Cedar Point.

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And keep in mind that Banshee is the longest inverted coaster in the world.  It beats out Raptor at Cedar Point.  I would hardly say that it is scaled down.  I will admit that Cedar Point`s water park is better than KI`s.  Part of that is because Cedar Point has all the hotel rooms to fill, and they are more of a vacation destination, when compared to KI. 

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15 minutes ago, KIghostguy said:

Orion being "scaled down" was Kings Island's choice. They wanted a giga, but they also wanted a ride that people of all ages would be able to ride over and over again comfortably. It had nothing to do with Cedar Point.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Orion, but how is a ride like Orion that much different than Fury 325 when it comes to the ages the rides appeal to and intensity. Both rides have 300+ foot drops which will scare off a large portion of guests. The difference in height between the rides likely does not make much of a difference when it comes to the audiences they attract. Orion’s height is also not why people complain criticize it. People criticize Orion because of its length. Besides height, the main difference between Orion and Fury 325 is that Fury is longer. Fury 325 is similar to Orion when it comes to intensity. Fury is just longer and has more elements. Kings Island could have made a ride that was very re-rideable and appealed to the same audience as Orion but just longer. I really do believe that the team at Kings Island wanted to make a giga that could be ridden over and over again and attracted a wide audience, but I don’t feel like that is the whole story. I feel like Kings Island had to work within a budget which didn’t allow them to make it as long as Fury 325.

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1 hour ago, KIghostguy said:

Orion being "scaled down" was Kings Island's choice. They wanted a giga, but they also wanted a ride that people of all ages would be able to ride over and over again comfortably. It had nothing to do with Cedar Point.

Why should we believe that? Because they told you that when you were doing the research for your book?  Of course they did!  I guess it's totally coincidental out of the soon to be 6 Cedar Fair Gigas, that Kings Island happens to have the only scaled down one.  Keep drinking that Cedar Fair KI Kool Aid. "With all things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

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Orion's installation included a major overhaul to a dated themed area.  Those changes factored into the overall budget for the capitol expenditure.  The park has been very forthright about that when discussing the entire Orion project.  

My personal opinion is that they made the right call in spending a good deal of effort, and money, to flesh out Area 72, and not just install a coaster.

Re: Knotts... I'm glad to see there's a proposal on the table for another signature attraction.  But remember, until its announced, things can drastically change (or not happen at all.)  I love Knotts as a park - its highly underrated.  But there's some overall infrastructure issues the park needs to address - parking is a HUGE issue there.  With competing parks upping the ante (Disneyland, Magic Mountain... even LegoLand and Sea World SD) a coaster installation would no doubt be a move to keep them vying for local & tourist dollars.  However they also need to continue to concentrate of overall amenities at the park - and most notably the horrible rooms at the Knotts hotel - to keep tourists there for more than a day visit.

Now back to the original topic... KI's 50th... I cant remember the last time I was this excited for an upcoming season.  The concentration on improvements, and the focus on infrastructure and amenities at the park for 2022 is fantastic.  The people overseeing KI are making great decisions.

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Orion has the best first drop on of any NA GIGA. I re-rode all 5 last summer and came away clear on that ranking (Orion, Fury, Leviathan, MF and I305 in that order). It's an outstanding ride. There are so many things to be angry about in this world, I can't imagine choosing such a hill to die on. It's not Fury, but nothing is right now. Knotts and it's year round operation in the middle of the second largest metro area in America might surpass it, but KI still got a great ride that adds to one of the deepest coaster lineups anywhere in North America. Oh yeah, and the park is beautiful and has VASTLY superior food and beverage offerings to Cedar Point. Only Knotts is on its level in that area in the chain. That's my two cents. 

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3 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

Don’t get me wrong, I love Orion, but how is a ride like Orion that much different than Fury 325 when it comes to the ages the rides appeal to and intensity. Both rides have 300+ foot drops which will scare off a large portion of guests. The difference in height between the rides likely does not make much of a difference when it comes to the audiences they attract. Orion’s height is also not why people complain criticize it. People criticize Orion because of its length. Besides height, the main difference between Orion and Fury 325 is that Fury is longer. Fury 325 is similar to Orion when it comes to intensity. Fury is just longer and has more elements. Kings Island could have made a ride that was very re-rideable and appealed to the same audience as Orion but just longer. I really do believe that the team at Kings Island wanted to make a giga that could be ridden over and over again and attracted a wide audience, but I don’t feel like that is the whole story. I feel like Kings Island had to work within a budget which didn’t allow them to make it as long as Fury 325.

The budget was $31 million. Yes, they had to work within it, but they had enough money to do what you said. Like I said, it was a choice. The length is because they thought that this layout proposal had the best pacing. You might think it's dumb, but that is the reasoning.

2 hours ago, kirbias1 said:

Why should we believe that? Because they told you that when you were doing the research for your book?  Of course they did!  I guess it's totally coincidental out of the soon to be 6 Cedar Fair Gigas, that Kings Island happens to have the only scaled down one.  Keep drinking that Cedar Fair KI Kool Aid. "With all things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

Why should I believe it? Because I sat across a table from Mike Koontz and was looking him in the eyes when he was telling me this. It lines up with his vision for the park. It was corroborated by other people I interviewed. And why do you think they would lie about this and not anything else I talked about in the book? People can misremember...but I do not believe any of the people I interviewed lied to me.

I do believe that people should feel however they want to about stuff that gets built, but the notion that Cedar Fair is purposely making Kings Island worse off or that they purposely cheapened out on Orion just isn't supported by any known facts. The management teams at both the park and corporate levels adore Kings Island, its history, and its legacy, and are committed to investing into the park and making it the best it can be. I just wish that love had translated into the 50th Anniversary logo!

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10 hours ago, KIghostguy said:

The budget was $31 million. Yes, they had to work within it, but they had enough money to do what you said. Like I said, it was a choice. The length is because they thought that this layout proposal had the best pacing. You might think it's dumb, but that is the reasoning.

Why should I believe it? Because I sat across a table from Mike Koontz and was looking him in the eyes when he was telling me this. It lines up with his vision for the park. It was corroborated by other people I interviewed. And why do you think they would lie about this and not anything else I talked about in the book? People can misremember...but I do not believe any of the people I interviewed lied to me.

I do believe that people should feel however they want to about stuff that gets built, but the notion that Cedar Fair is purposely making Kings Island worse off or that they purposely cheapened out on Orion just isn't supported by any known facts. The management teams at both the park and corporate levels adore Kings Island, its history, and its legacy, and are committed to investing into the park and making it the best it can be. I just wish that love had translated into the 50th Anniversary logo!

 

I would guess also that Cedar Fair had the capital allocation established and could not change that easily.  Thus, they used the established budget and worked with B&M to build a coaster on that ground within the budget (which you covered in your research). 

For the 50th, I like the updates to The Beast and maybe they can also get the animatronics working on Adventure Express.  I wouldn't mind seeing a special event that lasts well into the night to commemorate the 50th along with a larger fireworks show.  Maybe some banners showing past rides (placed close to where the rides sat).  

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The notion that the top execs at Cedar Fair want something less for any of their parks so as to ensure they don't outshine Cedar Pointe is kinda silly.  If you wanted to accuse Dick Kinzel of that, OK, I'd get that a bit, he grew up in Toledo and first worked at Cedar Pointe before eventually working his way up to CEO.  He has a house just outside its property.  Kinzel has since been replaced by a man that grew up in NY, became an accountant and worked for Disney for a number of years.  He was later replaced by a man who grew up in Kansas and worked his way up thru the Virginia side of the parks.  Meanwhile, there have been rumblings that management is looking to move headquarters out of Sandusky and down to Charlotte.  From a pure business stand point, financially I see how that makes sense, its probably much easier to recruit and retain top level employees if they are based in Charlotte rather than Sandusky.  One could certainly maintain such a move would take the heart out of the company, but I've digressed from the main point.

The simplest explanation is that CedarFair (not Pointe mind you) game Kings Island a budget and a roughly guideline on what to install. and left it to Kings Island management to take that budget and guidelines and tweak them to what they envision the parks best interests to be.  It is in both KI's best interest as well as Cedar Fair's best interest for the park to thrive in the best way possible.  CP and KI are two similar, yet very different parks with very different clients.  The more complicated explanation is that top level Execs are scared CP would lose its luster to a park 300 miles to its south and therefor prevent that asset from delivering the best return possible.

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1 hour ago, medford said:

The notion that the top execs at Cedar Fair want something less for any of their parks so as to ensure they don't outshine Cedar Pointe is kinda silly.  If you wanted to accuse Dick Kinzel of that, OK, I'd get that a bit, he grew up in Toledo and first worked at Cedar Pointe before eventually working his way up to CEO.  He has a house just outside its property.  Kinzel has since been replaced by a man that grew up in NY, became an accountant and worked for Disney for a number of years.  He was later replaced by a man who grew up in Kansas and worked his way up thru the Virginia side of the parks.  Meanwhile, there have been rumblings that management is looking to move headquarters out of Sandusky and down to Charlotte.  From a pure business stand point, financially I see how that makes sense, its probably much easier to recruit and retain top level employees if they are based in Charlotte rather than Sandusky.  One could certainly maintain such a move would take the heart out of the company, but I've digressed from the main point.

The simplest explanation is that CedarFair (not Pointe mind you) game Kings Island a budget and a roughly guideline on what to install. and left it to Kings Island management to take that budget and guidelines and tweak them to what they envision the parks best interests to be.  It is in both KI's best interest as well as Cedar Fair's best interest for the park to thrive in the best way possible.  CP and KI are two similar, yet very different parks with very different clients.  The more complicated explanation is that top level Execs are scared CP would lose its luster to a park 300 miles to its south and therefor prevent that asset from delivering the best return possible.

So true, and further, if they are smart, they would intentionally make those decisions to differentiate those products. I wish ( and see it happening a bit more) that they would continue to move Kings Island more in line line with Knotts-more of a whole family theme park with some thrill elements, and have CP continue to push the thrill envelope. I appreciate that the overall budget for Orion and Mystic included reworking and theming the overall area. If there was more of that park-wide (looking at you Banshee that just got dropped in a concrete jungle) I don’t think people would feel as “short changed” when the pure thrill or world record stats don’t blow everything prior away. With Carnivale, Winterfest and, I feel a few more seasonal festivals, KI is on its way to becoming a bigger regional player that attracts a different demographic than CP. 

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On 1/5/2022 at 10:25 AM, medford said:

The notion that the top execs at Cedar Fair want something less for any of their parks so as to ensure they don't outshine Cedar Pointe is kinda silly.  If you wanted to accuse Dick Kinzel of that, OK, I'd get that a bit, he grew up in Toledo and first worked at Cedar Pointe before eventually working his way up to CEO.  He has a house just outside its property.  Kinzel has since been replaced by a man that grew up in NY, became an accountant and worked for Disney for a number of years.  He was later replaced by a man who grew up in Kansas and worked his way up thru the Virginia side of the parks.  Meanwhile, there have been rumblings that management is looking to move headquarters out of Sandusky and down to Charlotte.  From a pure business stand point, financially I see how that makes sense, its probably much easier to recruit and retain top level employees if they are based in Charlotte rather than Sandusky.  One could certainly maintain such a move would take the heart out of the company, but I've digressed from the main point.

The simplest explanation is that CedarFair (not Pointe mind you) game Kings Island a budget and a roughly guideline on what to install. and left it to Kings Island management to take that budget and guidelines and tweak them to what they envision the parks best interests to be.  It is in both KI's best interest as well as Cedar Fair's best interest for the park to thrive in the best way possible.  CP and KI are two similar, yet very different parks with very different clients.  The more complicated explanation is that top level Execs are scared CP would lose its luster to a park 300 miles to its south and therefor prevent that asset from delivering the best return possible.

I honestly think it's kinda silly, that you think it's kinda silly.  KI was considered one of CPs main competitors before they took ownership of KI. So, the notion of CF wanting to keep KI's rides and overall guest experience scaled down because of them wanting CP to maintain its brand of best amusement park seems VERY SIMPLE to me. The simplest explanation is that in 16 years of ownership CF has yet to put in a record breaking attraction with the exception of longest invert in the world which no one really cares about. Before CF took ownership, prototypes and record breakers were common at KI. The simplest explanation is that while CP has been loading up on record breaking attractions while KI has been getting the scaled down family models. The simplest explanation is Cedar Fair has removed 3 roller coasters at KI and installed 5. That's only + 2 new coasters in 16 years. The fountains are now less than they were. The questionable removal of Vortex, which was a park ICON and many believe could have run for many more years and has left that area of Coney very lackluster, is yet another example. These are all FACTS. Not speculation. The body of work speaks volumes without any of the other white noise distorting the truth.  I see better than I hear. 

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The idea that the want a sub-par product is just bad business. I think,again, that they are moving KI to a different target demographic-and you hit it right on the head-“scaled down family version” although I’d venture Orion is still pushing the “family” limits. It just makes sense to go after two different demographics. Based on that, I’m actually surprised there’s not been more investment into things like fixing theming on AE, creating more richly themed areas, bringing in more multi-generational flats, revamping the kids area into a true world-class destination, mixing more family friendly  rides throughout the park (aka Dollywood) and even developing more lodging and on-property food and retail options. I think the general public is less moved by “stats” than enthusiasts like to think. I HOPE we keep seeing more dollars invested into overall experience and quit chasing after just the next world record height, speed whatever. Those can always be surpassed if that’s all you are trading on. 
 
and I SERIOUSLY doubt they would have approved the expense of demo fir Vortex, just to keep the KI down a few notches. Why bother if it had “years of life” still left??

Based in that, that’s why I wish the branding, logo and everything was totally different (like knotts) because trying to have corporate consistency only invites comparisons. 

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"many believe" is not FACT, is is speculation.

Record breakers are for "fan boys".  I get that we are all "fan boys" to one extent or another, but the average KI guest doesn't walk into the park and decide to ride one ride or another simply because its 10 feet higher or 10 feet longer.  Cedar Pointe has long been a park that caters to the Fan Boys because it is very dependent on the clientele that will travel from 500+ miles away to spend 3-4 days in the park.  KI is a park that very much caters to its niche market, families located within a 50 mil radius of the park who make a handful of trips to KI every summer.

KI and CP serve 2 very different clients.  CP gets more bigger investments because it needs those investments to keep the fans boys in Missouri coming back every couple of years for a couple of days.  KI gets more family oriented investments cause it needs that family that lives on the 275 beltway to come back 3-4 times each summer.

To get to 3 removals, you have to include SOB.  I'd hardly call that fair to call that abomination of a creation CP's fault.  So if we are talking about a +3 over 16 years, that is right on par with the typical 5 year development plan you will find at Carowinds, Canada's Wonderland and Kings Dominion, and far better than Valley Fair or numerous other parks in the chain.

You see what you want to see.  KI is far more than just rollercoasters and if the Execs are doing anything less than working to unlock the most potential out of each of their parks then they are doing both the company and themselves a disservice.  As I said in my prior post, these are no longer the days of Dick Kinzil with a very specific interest in Cedar Point, many of the execs today didn't grow up on Cedar Point specifically, their goal is and should be the company as a whole.  I'm pretty sure there would be more than 1 large investor (not to mention SEC regulators) that would be a little more than miffed if it was discovered the executives were doing something other than aiming to provide the best return on their investor dollars.  Top level execs typically have stock options in the company, that affects their personal bottom line as well.

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I grew up during the coaster wars.  You know what CP learned?  Don't try ANYTHING new until someone else does and KI was the usual suspect.  Being the first, especially back then, didn't always mean being the best.  Take the original Bat for example.  Iron Dragon is STILL standing to this day.  Also King Cobra which has been removed and although Mantis is no longer at CP it's track still is being used today.  I was fortunate enough to ride the original Bat and it was INTENSE.  Loved that ride but had they known to do banked turns (a lesson they learned from building The Bat) then maybe it would still be there today (of course we wouldn't have had Vortex).  Also talking about firsts there was also SOB (we'll just leave that be) and of course Flight Commander.

I will admit that The Racer, Beast and Vortex & Viking Fury were all successes that were "firsts" so it CAN happen, just that the track record for those who look at history it always seems best to let someone else be the test bed and then install something learning from the mistakes.

I've always seen KI as a family park.  Look at Aerial Chase.  CP has nothing like it.  They seem to be going more for the family-friendly park where as CP is more of a destination.  You come to KI for 1-2 days, you go to CP for 4-6 (that's what the resorts are for).  Either way I think CF is doing a great job (much better than Paramount) and don't feel as if KI is getting the "red-headed stepchild" treatment.

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1 hour ago, kirbias1 said:

The simplest explanation is that while CP has been loading up on record breaking attractions while KI has been getting the scaled down family models.

Since CF has taken over:

4 coasters: 

230'/ 80mph,

7 inversions & longest inverted,

wood coaster that is enjoyed by most people- including enthusiasts,

300' 91mph

How those can be considered scaled back compared to: BLSC, FoF and a historically failed SoB is just mind-blowing.

....but to each their own.

 

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Also consider that CP is a destination park.  As stated above, they HAVE to have record breakers there.  They have to fill resort rooms.  The town/city is build around CP.  

KI began as a resort but has morphed into a regional park.  So they rely on season pass holders.  I mean, it's Cincinnatti.  Nothing really to do there except go to KI, eat chili, see a game and go to IKEA.

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2 minutes ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Also consider that CP is a destination park.  As stated above, they HAVE to have record breakers there.  They have to fill resort rooms.  The town/city is build around CP.  

KI began as a resort but has morphed into a regional park.  So they rely on season pass holders.  I mean, it's Cincinnatti.  Nothing really to do there except go to KI, eat chili, see a game and go to IKEA.

I think that’s a fail on KIs part in that they ARENT marketing the whole region more. There’s the zoo, pro sports, great urban dining and exploration, great theatre and cultural experiences. I’d venture that If they WANTED to they could bring back that “destination” mentality with a “Disney Springs” style development, more partner lodging and dining as well as cross promotions with other area attractions. I thought it could’ve been heading that way years ago with the movie theatre, but that didn’t really last. Even if they developed the water park into a real, stand alone attraction worthy of a second gate admission I think they could really develop the whole property. 

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But what is there to market?  Besides the things I mentioned, Cincy is pretty much like any other metro area in the country.  Even the Brady kids recognized this--look at their reaction when Mike told them his big surprise to Cincy!

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This idea has always confused me, what exactly does Cincinnati NOT have? (besides a good public transit system and sunny beaches) I’ve always felt like we take for granted all of the things there are to do here. I mean, I can’t really think of anything we’re missing. It’s an awesome place if you’re a fan of art or music. Tons of museums to check out and the theatre scene is awesome. Many different concert venues that can suit anyones taste. I performed in music hall once before and that place is absolutely amazing. We have multiple pro sports teams with the Reds bringing a lot of historical significance. Great *unique* food, German heritage, breweries, etc. I’ve been to many different cities across the states and I don’t agree with the thought that it’s just some average city that can’t bring people in. It’s not a boring place by any means and it CAN be marketable if KI chose to do so (more than just Oktoberfest / Cincy sport themed games). But really, if you don’t think there’s more to do in the region than eat Skyline or go to Ikea / Liberty Center, maybe venture out of West Chester? It’s a great place to live and all but I hear so many people from the suburbs always complain about how there’s nothing to do but there literally is if you just look for it. Boat rides, haunted tours, the aquarium, the sign museum, the zoo, etc. Catch a show at the Aranoff Center? Tons of bars and clubs that keep the night life alive (including a good selection of LGBT clubs that some cities tend to lack). I could keep rambling on but I encourage anyone who claims there aren’t many things to do here to just… look for things? Idk. I know it’s not New York or LA but it’s not as dull and boring as people seem to think. Sometimes I just like to admire all of the beautiful architecture, from modern to historic. Maybe I’m just weird but I think this region has a lot of charm and Kings Island could easily market it more if they chose to. I always felt like a full Cincinnati themed area would be super beneficial. 

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8 minutes ago, Cheesy Gordita Crunch said:

This idea has always confused me, what exactly does Cincinnati NOT have? (besides a good public transit system and sunny beaches) I’ve always felt like we take for granted all of the things there are to do here. I mean, I can’t really think of anything we’re missing. It’s an awesome place if you’re a fan of art or music. Tons of museums to check out and the theatre scene is awesome. Many different concert venues that can suit anyones taste. I performed in music hall once before and that place is absolutely amazing. We have multiple pro sports teams with the Reds bringing a lot of historical significance. Great *unique* food, German heritage, breweries, etc. I’ve been to many different cities across the states and I don’t agree with the thought that it’s just some average city that can’t bring people in. It’s not a boring place by any means and it CAN be marketable if KI chose to do so (more than just Oktoberfest / Cincy sport themed games). But really, if you don’t think there’s more to do in the region than eat Skyline or go to Ikea / Liberty Center, maybe venture out of West Chester? It’s a great place to live and all but I hear so many people from the suburbs always complain about how there’s nothing to do but there literally is if you just look for it. Boat rides, haunted tours, the aquarium, the sign museum, the zoo, etc. Catch a show at the Aranoff Center? Tons of bars and clubs that keep the night life alive (including a good selection of LGBT clubs that some cities tend to lack). I could keep rambling on but I encourage anyone who claims there aren’t many things to do here to just… look for things? Idk. I know it’s not New York or LA but it’s not as dull and boring as people seem to think. Sometimes I just like to admire all of the beautiful architecture, from modern to historic. Maybe I’m just weird but I think this region has a lot of charm and Kings Island could easily market it more if they chose to. I always felt like a full Cincinnati themed area would be super beneficial. 

Thanks - was just going to highlight a few of those things - Would those keep an out of towner here to visit KI a few more days? Maybe not, but it 1) there was better PHYSICAL connectivity between Cincinnati and KI to get people into the city easier, and 2) better coordination around events in Cincinnati - such as an "All American Reds BaseBall" event in the Coney section w Reds players and memorabilia, a "Game Day Tailgate" (kinda did this one) around big football game weekends, Maybe try to coordinate something around Carnivale with the art museum to highlight International art from the countries represented by the festival... I don't know - there are lots of other events that they could even do ticket "bundles" with such as the Zoo - or now that the rides are gone and they compete in different segments, develop a relationship with Coney mgmt to highlight the "Birthplace of KI" and give a discount as an incentive t extend your stay in the "Beautiful new Kings Island Inn" for an extra day to visit old Coney. Again, it doesn't seem like an avenue they want to go down right now

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I agree with the above posts highlighting all the Cincinnati Area has to offer besides KI. I can think of the Zoo, the malls (Kenwood/Deerfield Towne Center/Eastgate, Liberty Center and everything else over in that area, etc. Heck- one could say Forest Fair Mall is a tourist attraction!), and Newport on the Leevee (RIP Barnes and Noble). As someone said above, there are unique food options like LaRosas's, Greaters (their peanut butter cookies are amazing!), Skyline/Gold Star and Marx Bagels (in Blue Ash). And as echoed above, there are also concert venues and museums downtown (and of course sports teams). There is a lot to see and do around here if you know where to look :D

And @brenthodge, the only recent KI collabs that I've seen and experienced are the Reds Hall of Fame Grille (and also certain days where Reds players talk at International Showplace) and the unique animatronic display that was put on by Kings Schools for Winterfest located (inside the Coney gift shop (next to the restrooms and near the Coke Freestyle building).

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4 hours ago, BeeastFarmer said:

Also consider that CP is a destination park.  As stated above, they HAVE to have record breakers there.  They have to fill resort rooms.  The town/city is build around CP.  

KI began as a resort but has morphed into a regional park.  So they rely on season pass holders.  I mean, it's Cincinnatti.  Nothing really to do there except go to KI, eat chili, see a game and go to IKEA.

That would be CINCINNATI. And there is a lot more to do than KI, chili, ball and IKEA.

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1 hour ago, Cheesy Gordita Crunch said:

This idea has always confused me, what exactly does Cincinnati NOT have? (besides a good public transit system and sunny beaches) I’ve always felt like we take for granted all of the things there are to do here. I mean, I can’t really think of anything we’re missing. It’s an awesome place if you’re a fan of art or music. Tons of museums to check out and the theatre scene is awesome. Many different concert venues that can suit anyones taste. I performed in music hall once before and that place is absolutely amazing. We have multiple pro sports teams with the Reds bringing a lot of historical significance. Great *unique* food, German heritage, breweries, etc. I’ve been to many different cities across the states and I don’t agree with the thought that it’s just some average city that can’t bring people in. It’s not a boring place by any means and it CAN be marketable if KI chose to do so (more than just Oktoberfest / Cincy sport themed games). But really, if you don’t think there’s more to do in the region than eat Skyline or go to Ikea / Liberty Center, maybe venture out of West Chester? It’s a great place to live and all but I hear so many people from the suburbs always complain about how there’s nothing to do but there literally is if you just look for it. Boat rides, haunted tours, the aquarium, the sign museum, the zoo, etc. Catch a show at the Aranoff Center? Tons of bars and clubs that keep the night life alive (including a good selection of LGBT clubs that some cities tend to lack). I could keep rambling on but I encourage anyone who claims there aren’t many things to do here to just… look for things? Idk. I know it’s not New York or LA but it’s not as dull and boring as people seem to think. Sometimes I just like to admire all of the beautiful architecture, from modern to historic. Maybe I’m just weird but I think this region has a lot of charm and Kings Island could easily market it more if they chose to. I always felt like a full Cincinnati themed area would be super beneficial. 

I hope my views don't insult you.  But the things you mention all appeal to locals.  They could appeal to tourists, but I would venture a guess that St. Louis/Des Moines/Louisville and Fort Smith all have these things (besides pro sports, which Cincy does have).  There is just not a natural draw--most people don't think of Cincy as a destination like they do  DC, Charlotte, Phoenix or LA.

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CP's only way to survive is as a destination park.  They don't have the luxury of being all that close to a major city like Kings Island is, thus they need to build shinier things than KI to attract people there.   Cincinnati is also at a kind of crossroads where a lot of traffic and people flow through unlike Sandusky, which is much more isolated geographically.  

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Cedar Point has several large metro areas to pull from.  And keep in mind at Cedar Point, there is more to do than just the amusement park.  There is the water park, the beach, they have a large marina, Castaway Bay, the Sports Force Park for tournaments, the Saw Mill Creek resort, the beauty of Lake Erie.  One could easily spend an entire day at Cedar Point/surrounding hotels, without even setting foot in the amusement park.  It is more of a destination park compared to KI, in part because it has the hotel infrastructure (owned by Cedar Fair) to support that kind of activity.  KI has surrounding hotels, and can be a multi-day park for non-Cincinnatians.  However the surrounding hotels are not owned by Cedar Fair, so it does not generate additional revenue by guests staying in the hotels, like it does at Cedar Point, Knott`s, and the Carowinds hotel.

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The 50th will be a great year. The 150 CP Anniversary was pretty awesome and Cedar Fair will do well with the one at KI. We can all wish for different things but looking back on park history can't we just stand back and say yes we are amazed at what the Wachs and Taft Broadcasting accomplished in the early 1970s? I mean they built such a great park and while time has caused certain attractions so fade away, we still have a lot of history in the park and hopefully that's all recognized during the anniversary. I would love to see signs outside the ques of all the original opening day rides to let people know this is a park original. 

Now as for the Controversial topic about Cedar Fair keeping Kings Island down, I can't say I totally agree about that. Here's why, since aquiring Kings Island, Cedar Fair has relocated or built 5 rollercoasters at the park (Firehawk, Diamondback, Banshee, Mystic Timbers, & Orion) In that same time frame, Cedar Fair has built/rebranded 5 rollercoasters at Cedar Point (Maverick, GateKeeper, Rougarou, Valraven, Steel Vengeance). Both Firehawk and Rougarou to me were temporary attractions. With Firehawk being the oldest it makes sense it closed first but trust me, when CP needs that space Rougarou is gone too. You may argue that CP got coaster types we didn't have (aka dive, winged, rmc hybrid, floorless) but you have to look at what we had before their management. We gained new coaster types too (aka Hyper, Inverted, Flying, and Giga). MT to me was the only one we already had something similar but sometimes you need to invest in that 48" generation seeing as they knew Vortex was on its last leg and I'm assuming the old Top Gun (now The Bat) won't be far behind. So when arguing that CF has kept us down I would say NOT AT ALL! Yes as a park CP is probably better but as someone else pointed out they have to attract tourism while we are a local park. It's just a different market. Mike Koontz has a good head on his shoulders and has done a ton for KI during his time and we all owe him a huge thanks for bringing KI out of the slump Paramount had put it in. I do agree that Vortex needs a replacement and I'm sure Koontz knows that too but now is not the time. Obviously there's other parks they need to invest in and money I'm sure is tight because of Covid. HEY DID EVERYONE FORGET THAT FREE YEAR OF SEASON PASSES!!?? Think about how much money they lost because THEY DID THE RIGHT THING! I will always be loyal to Cedar Fair for that reason if not for anything else. 

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20-ish years ago record breakers were a big deal, not so much nowadays- except for enthusiasts.  For most, 300' coaster allure is unfortunately watered down today- which I think is crazy but look at the data: it took 10 years for the 2nd giga to be built in the states and only and only 7 are currently operating worldwide.

In 2006 (just a few years after TTD debuted), Dick Kinzel was quite vocal that it was the worst business decision he ever made & that 50% of park goers would not ride TTD.  Other parks obviously agree given only 2 stand today.

Guest experience & convenience has taken over for record breaking coasters when it comes to drawing in guests.  I expect in the coming years new(er) technology to be used in rides more than record breakers.

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3 hours ago, Browntggrr said:

In 2006 (just a few years after TTD debuted), Dick Kinzel was quite vocal that it was the worst business decision he ever made & that 50% of park goers would not ride TTD.  Other parks obviously agree given only 2 stand today.

From what I understand the biggest reason he said that was how much it is down.  By FAR the most expensive ride on a cost per rider basis since it's opening.  Maybe things would have been different if they stuck with the original plan, but then Gemini would have had to go.

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On 1/4/2022 at 10:02 PM, kirbias1 said:

Why should we believe that? Because they told you that when you were doing the research for your book?  Of course they did!  I guess it's totally coincidental out of the soon to be 6 Cedar Fair Gigas, that Kings Island happens to have the only scaled down one.  Keep drinking that Cedar Fair KI Kool Aid. "With all things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

Cedar Fair or the parks add whatever will get them the greatest ROI not because they favor one park over another.  If they thought a dippin dots stand would make them millions Im sure we see those instead of roller coasters installed.

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One thing I hope they do with Racer also is completely revamp the queue.  Keep the style, but remove half the queue not used and put in some plants or something, spruce it up.

Then do the same for old man Beast when it turns 50.

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