OFFICIAL! Son of Beast Will NOT Operate in 2010

[Colonel_SoB_fan]

I believe he was talking about the loop

[RingMaster]

I believe he was talking about the loop

Well, from what I understand, the loop structure was steel, but the actual rails were made of wood. So coaster_junky is right; my bubble has burst.

[Colonel_SoB_fan]

yep you both are right. I always thought it was a full steel coaster. But this fact sheet with the press release proved me wrong.

http://rcdb.com/584.htm?dt=126&d=31

[coaster_junky]

I believe he was talking about the loop

Well, from what I understand, the loop structure was steel, but the actual rails were made of wood. So coaster_junky is right; my bubble has burst.

lol, well sorry to do that, but i thought i'd just point it out and besides you are not the only one to think that. i once had someone in line in front of me telling me that the reason the loop was removed was because of humans not being able to handle the tracks transition from wooden running rails to steel running rails. she was a lost cause.

[shark6495]

you know if you go to RCDB, and look at the pics of the ride in its glory days what a sweet loop....

Sweetness

not as sweet

[CoastersRZ]

This is totally unrelated to SoB, but it pertains to the conversation a few days ago about blueprints being accurate from the start.

As many of you know, I went to school for architecture (six long years at DAAP), and am now employed at a local architecture firm (finally!). Once the permit set is submitted and a building permit is issued, does not mean that there aren`t change orders or issues that come up, particularly with clearances between structural and mechanical systems, etc. Sometimes things that look good on paper, just are constructable as drawn, and have to be adapted to the actual conditions in the field. This happens all the time in architecture firms. Changes and alterations are made. Sometimes it is existing conditions, sometimes it is design revisions. Very few buildings are constructed without some sort of change once the construction documents are developed.

Yes, some buildings have issues, especially when new construction methods are used. Sometimes the issues arise from issues created by the design itself. I took a class from an adjunct professor in grad school. He owns his own firm based here in town. He is brought in to trouble shoot facades that leak or do not work as designed (panels popping off, etc.). A lot of times, it comes down to the new curtain wall systems being utilized and a lack of attention to solid time proven details. A lot of times, the constructability of facades and construction details are overlooked, which often results in facades that don`t provide their necessary function. Facades are supposed to keep the elements out, while maintaining the conditioned space inside the building. When things go wrong, often lawsuits are involved, and the professor who taught the class is often a witness and later acts as a building doctor.

Well, that was a long, and very off topic post.

[shark6495]

This is totally unrelated to SoB, but it pertains to the conversation a few days ago about blueprints being accurate from the start.

As many of you know, I went to school for architecture (six long years at DAAP), and am now employed at a local architecture firm (finally!). Once the permit set is submitted and a building permit is issued, does not mean that there aren`t change orders or issues that come up, particularly with clearances between structural and mechanical systems, etc. Sometimes things that look good on paper, just are constructable as drawn, and have to be adapted to the actual conditions in the field. This happens all the time in architecture firms. Changes and alterations are made. Sometimes it is existing conditions, sometimes it is design revisions. Very few buildings are constructed without some sort of change once the construction documents are developed.

Yes, some buildings have issues, especially when new construction methods are used. Sometimes the issues arise from issues created by the design itself. I took a class from an adjunct professor in grad school. He owns his own firm based here in town. He is brought in to trouble shoot facades that leak or do not work as designed (panels popping off, etc.). A lot of times, it comes down to the new curtain wall systems being utilized and a lack of attention to solid time proven details. A lot of times, the constructability of facades and construction details are overlooked, which often results in facades that don`t provide their necessary function. Facades are supposed to keep the elements out, while maintaining the conditioned space inside the building. When things go wrong, often lawsuits are involved, and the professor who taught the class is often a witness and later acts as a building doctor.

Well, that was a long, and very off topic post.

First off, huge congrats on getting a job. and as I stated a while back, either in this topic or another SoB topic, that plans can and do change... Now I have a question, did you have to take a class where you pass the blame to someone else? (ie. it was the guy who designed it, or the guy who built it.... ) okay bad joke i know but huge congrats..... now that you have a grown up job, can you tell us exactly where SoB went wrong? and follow up... how do we fix it hehe

[dr_humor]

to everyone who didnt like the ride during their first rides, may i ask when you rode it first? Im not calling you out, but it seems that anyone who rode it prior to 2003/2004 loved their first rides, and anyone after that did not like their first rides....

Your question is irrelevant. It's 2010, not 2050. 10 years later, I should be able to get on SOB and get a quality ride, just like day # 1.

[Braves0511]

^This is true...But coasters do in fact age, so if you ride it another ten years from now it will more than likely be still different...However, it shouldn't become unride-able in ten years...

[CoastersRZ]

Well now, I am an architect, not a structural or mechanical engineer. In fact, most architects, including the firm I work at, have structural engineers as consultants. They are the ones with the expertise in structures, gravitational loads and lateral loads. Granted, I did take many structures classes, and know about shear and moment connections, and how to draw shear and moment curves, and about moment arms, I was not taught as in depth as what a structural engineer would be. And yes, in order to become a licensed architect, I will have to pass a structures exam as part of the architect registration exam (ARE).

And I did ride Son of Beast on April 28th, 2000 (Friday night), the first day that the ride was open. (The media rode it in the morning and the park was open from 5 to 10 that night).

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

Engineering marvel? Maybe, but either way a wooden double helix at 60+ mph is a horrid idea.

[DBru]

^It seems to work pretty well for The Beast.

[shark6495]

to everyone who didnt like the ride during their first rides, may i ask when you rode it first? Im not calling you out, but it seems that anyone who rode it prior to 2003/2004 loved their first rides, and anyone after that did not like their first rides....

Your question is irrelevant. It's 2010, not 2050. 10 years later, I should be able to get on SOB and get a quality ride, just like day # 1.

actually its not. if your first ride came after the failure of the ride, the removal of the loop, the lighter trains, then you are not getting the original experience..... but its cool i understand where you are coming from. But even after year 1 the ride (any ride) will not be the same. wood ages, bows, stretches, etc.....

[Fear the Four]

 

can you tell us exactly where SoB went wrong? and follow up... how do we fix it hehe

Lateral bracing is one of your problems.

[thunderbeast1968]

My brother has back issues from some time now. He has 2 18inch titanuim rods fused to his spine from scoliosis as a child. His surgery has been about 16 yrs ago, and he has no issues with coasters, let alone SOB.

I know, people will say he should not ride coasters at all but, he had to wait about 6 years after his surgery to resume park visits. His Doctor said it "may not be a good idea" but whatever your body can handle was his motto. We tried a smaller coaster at first to see how he felt, he said he was fine.

He has been on SOB (w/ and w/o the loop) never had a problem. The Beast, Meanstreak, TTD, Maverick, and many others. My point is, a prior medical problem known or unknown could affect your ride experience or just standing at work doing your job may aggravate your problem, no one knows?

[HTCO]

^ Some people have a different pain tolerance than others.

[bkroz]

Exactly. So it's hardly anyone's place to say "Son of Beast is a failure, and everyone hates it." Because many people like, and even love it. Is it because of a higher pain tolerance? Perhaps for some. And also consider... As a whole, if any group were to complain more than another, would it be the enthusiasts, or the everyday park goers? No offense, but some of the enthusiasts here just walk around with a scowl on their face - reminds me of Dracula, always walking around, wringing their hands, looking for something to be unpleasant...

Many new age park-goers don't know the difference between The Beast and Son of Beast, and you can't even deny that. All of us have seen many a family point at the Son of Beast and go "Look how big The Beast is!" and vice versa). So consider, do they really know one as being "unbelievably painful, the worst thing in the world, the biggest failure that's ever happened, absolutely an abomination" and the other as a "fantastic, classic, record-breaking ride that enlightens all those who grace its tracks"? Probably not..

They're both the "big wooden coasters", and if you asked, 70% of those who ride both probably wouldn't be able to tell you if there was a difference between The Beast's final helix and Son of Beast's rosebowl (if they even recalled them being two seperate rides). To the casual rider, they probably notice no difference, except the lack-of-tunnel.

[DropZone99]

Many new age park-goers don't know the difference between The Beast and Son of Beast, and you can't even deny that. All of us have seen many a family point at the Son of Beast and go "Look how big The Beast is!" and vice versa).

I remember seeing some show on Nickelodeon a few years ago (2007) and they were at Kings Island. The host of the show was going to be riding Beast at the end of the show which was the whole point of the show I guess. Throughout the show they would show video footage of 'Beast' to get you more excited. Half of the time the footage they showed was actually of Son of Beast. And it's not views of the trains from the ground where the average person couldn't tell a difference, it was footage from the Eiffel Tower looking down at SOB, and the view of it's lift hill from near Xtreme Skyflier where you could actually see the big crate with the words 'Son of Beast' in it.

[Delirium13]

Exactly. So it's hardly anyone's place to say "Son of Beast is a failure, and everyone hates it." Because many people like, and even love it. Is it because of a higher pain tolerance? Perhaps for some. And also consider... As a whole, if any group were to complain more than another, would it be the enthusiasts, or the everyday park goers? No offense, but some of the enthusiasts here just walk around with a scowl on their face - reminds me of Dracula, always walking around, wringing their hands, looking for something to be unpleasant...

Many new age park-goers don't know the difference between The Beast and Son of Beast, and you can't even deny that. All of us have seen many a family point at the Son of Beast and go "Look how big The Beast is!" and vice versa). So consider, do they really know one as being "unbelievably painful, the worst thing in the world, the biggest failure that's ever happened, absolutely an abomination" and the other as a "fantastic, classic, record-breaking ride that enlightens all those who grace its tracks"? Probably not..

They're both the "big wooden coasters", and if you asked, 70% of those who ride both probably wouldn't be able to tell you if there was a difference between The Beast's final helix and Son of Beast's rosebowl (if they even recalled them being two seperate rides). To the casual rider, they probably notice no difference, except the lack-of-tunnel.

I honestly think you're underestimating people's intelligence. I can tell you with 100% confidence that I have never heard someone call the Son of Beast 'The Beast', and especially never the other way around.

People are not that dumb, especially if you factor in that they both garner a lot of media attention (I would say The Beast is famous whereas the Son of Beast is more infamous).

While you cannot say that everyone hates Son of Beast, although I do believe there is a pretty solid argument that it has been a failure. It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that most of the public do not even know the difference, especially with all the negative media attention Son of Beast has had.

[bkroz]

Media attention? Perhaps for those who watch Top 10 Megastructures and Top 10 Roller Coasters on Travel Channel often enough that they care... And chances are, if you're watching Top Ten Roller Coasters, you're already well aware of most of them.

This may be blasphemy, but The Beast is not famous. Among the roller coaster community? In southern Ohio and Kentucky? Sure! But travel to Kennywood? Hersheypark? Kings Dominion? Six Flags Great Adventure? You'd be lucky if someone had heard of Kings Island, much less The Beast. I have, on many occasions, had to explain to folks in line at Cedar Point what and where Kings Island is... Do you think those people would believe that The Beast gets 'media attention?' It may be on Travel Channel from time to time, it may be well-known among roller coaster enthusiasts, but The Beast holds no more importance to people in say, Georgia, than any Georgian wooden roller coaster holds for us as Ohioans.

So a person does not have to be 'dumb' to confuse The Beast and Son of Beast any more than they would be 'dumb' to confuse (hypothetical) rides called Thunder Road and Alley of Thunder. Similar names, similar rides, same park, same idea... Are they different? Of course. Do most people know they're different? Yes. But my argument is that many don't know (and really, don't care) which is which. Despite how we think of it, people come to Kings Island and ride rides, they do not dwell on what the ride is named, "Son of" relations, "bad layouts" and stigma.

Families with young kids don't ride Son of Beast. Elderly people don't ride Son of Beast. Teenagers ride Son of Beast - and I really can't imagine teenagers (except the kind who are on this site) stopping by Guest Relations to complain about Son of Beast. My point has been and will remain that if Son of Beast opened tomorrow, the line would be full, and a train wouldn't dispatch with an empty seat. And consider that if it did open tomorrow, half of its biggest critics on this site would be among those in line, knowing that they would hate it, if only so they could come back here and complain... The line would be full of willing & excited teens. Perhaps there wouldn't be as many middle-aged adults in line, but perhaps there never should've been.

[shark6495]

goodyellow, i understand your frustrations but seriously people have heard of KI. If not because of the rides, or the paramount hawking of it back in the day, or because of the brady bunch. Either way people have heard of the park. the individual rides, maybe maybe not. Moving on to the other points you have tried to make again and again. Cedar Fair may or may not care about the teenagers who ride that ride, but they care about the families of 4 not riding that ride. one less ride means the family is at the park for 1 less hour. 1 less hour means they are not as hungry. 1 less ride people want to ride means they will have less reasons to return to the park in the future....

[bkroz]

Do you really think that an everyday family in Georgia, even one who regularly visits Six Flags Over Georgia, has heard of Kings Island? Even families who frequent Hersheypark (only one state away) certainly aren't familiar with Kings Island. As fans of the park, we'd like to think otherwise, but that's just not the case. Kings Island doesn't broadcast commercials in Pennsylvania. They don't put up billboards there. There's no reason - that's not their market. I personally live an hour outside Cleveland, four hours from Kings Island. My area was mainly served by Six Flags & SeaWorld (later, Geauga Lake). Many of my friends had never heard of Kings Island before I introduced them, and those who had had only heard "It's a kiddie park." I kid you not. So as much as we'd like to believe that Kings Island is well-known. It's just not. Not to everyday, regular families who don't have an enthusiast parent / child / friend.

As for your other point, neither Son of Beast, The Beast, Diamondback, or Flight of Fear is aimed at "families of four." Nothing they could do to Son of Beast would make it accessible to two parents and their children under 12. It just wouldn't. That is precisely the reason that the park is "Ride on!" and "The fun and only." Because they're marketing to far different groups with far different agendas. Son of Beast is not closed because "they care about the families of 4 not riding it."

And lastly, the notion that "one less ride that they want to ride is one less reason to return to the park in the future" has little to nothing to do with Son of Beast.

No one will boycott Kings Island for having a ride that they're not particularly interested in riding. If they don't want to ride it, they won't. They won't say "My 8 and 10 year old daughters have no interest in riding that huge wooden roller coaster. But since it's not open (and even if it was I bet it would be an abomination and I bet its the lowest rated roller coaster according to a poll of enthusiasts), I am not coming back!" There are, however, people who are upset that it's closed. No one would be upset if it was open - they'd just not ride it if they're not interested.

[Delirium13]

Once again, I have to disagree with you. You continue to make arguments including "facts" that you cannot possibly know or back up.

I know many people, who are definitely not enthusiasts who refuse to ride Son of Beast because of its bad media attention, and no I'm not referring to the Discovery Channel or Travel Channel, I'm referring to the accidents that have received national attention, and also due to their terrible past experiences on the ride. A ride should not require that people "know how to ride it" (no I'm not saying you've made this argument but in the past this has been a common argument in favor of the ride).

The people who visit Kings Island are mainly from Southern Ohio, Kentucky, and Indian, and as you said The Beast is famous in these areas, which takes away from your previous argument that most people do not know the difference. People remember their past experiences, the good and the bad, and the fact is that many people have had bad experiences on the Son of Beast in which they have decided that enough was enough and that they no longer would ride it.

And I disagree that The Beast is not famous. It is about as famous a roller coaster you'll find Here's and example from across the country. The LA Times' top 10 wooden roller coaster list. What's the coaster pictured? While many among the enthusiast community disagree that The Beast is a top 10, it continues to be ranked by the national, non enthusiast related sites, namely because it has fame working in its favor.

I do agree with you though that the Son of Beast, if it did open tomorrow (assuming the park was open of course), would have a long line. I wouldn't say a full line, but a long line, sure. But in my opinion I would say that this would be mainly due to curiosity (as it was after the ride reopened without the loop).

I know that no matter what I say, you will disagree, but one only needs to type in 'Son of Beast' on Google to realize how much of a PR nightmare this ride is.

[shark6495]

or ride it, question the ability of the park to maintain a ride for safety reasons. This may surprise you but for a while I lived in upstate ny, over 9 hours away from cincy. People have heard of Kings Island. they even, gasp, went to the park for vacations. Believe me people have heard of the park. Goodyellowkorn, SoB may not be geared towards families of four, but The Beast can be ridden by parents, actually any ride can be. Each area has the kiddie pen near the exit to corral the young kids in while the parents ride the rides. Goodyellow I understand you like SOB but try to see the other side of a discussion and its easier to come up with solutions instead of just starting a fire and leaving

[bkroz]

Delirium, I agree with much of what you say. But we're talking about far different groups (both of which are well-represented in the park). There are those who have been visiting the park regularly (not enthusiastically, but still regularly) who, of course, recall decades of fun on The Beast. However, there are also those who are "new" visitors (myself included) who are just beginning to visit with their family. Sure they may have occasional memories from childhood, etc. but these are young couples with young children, teenagers who haven't been to the park more than a dozen times their whole life, and many other specific groups - these people call our suspended coaster Top Gun by habit, not by a vendetta against Cedar Fair's horrible names (as some of us do). They don't really recall a time before Paramount, and don't care who owns the park and who doesn't.

The people who I'm talking about don't notice little details or names the way we do - they know The Racer is forwards for whatever reason, Son of Beast has no loop for whatever reason, and Tomb Raider is now The Crypt for whatever reason, if they even know that much. These are the kinds of people who don't care (notice I said "don't care", not "don't know") the difference between Son of Beast and The Beast. They probably don't really know the "tallest" "fastest" longest" titles attributed here and there. They just ride the rides. Then they like them, or dislike them, or somewhere in between, and go about their business.

They don't google "Son of Beast" beforehand, so they don't know the stigma. They just ride the ride and, love it or hate it, go on with their day. We all have friends of friends of friends who (coincidentally, I'm sure) all share the opinion of their closest enthusiast-friend, so none of that can be submitted as evidence, of course...

And contrary to your belief, shark, I do not like Son of Beast. I've ridden it. I've expressed my disinterest in riding it again. My friend have ridden it. I've sat by myself waiting while they rode. Some loved it. Some liked it. None hated it. Take that for what it's worth (very little). It's just, my one pet peeve is people who suggest "worlds biggest bonfire lololololololz zomg" as you do. It's not realistic, it's not funny, it's not clever (anymore), and it's useless to waste everyone's time saying it. If the ride were to never open again, I would not shed a tear. But, I think it has potential. Am I an optimist? Obviously. Is that a bad thing? I never experienced Son of Beast without a wait, even at its 'worst' times post-2007. I can only imagine how popular it would be if it were reworked into a truly A+ ride. It would take a lot of time and money. The best choice will be made, based on many factors. That "best choice" may use one piece of wood from Son of Beast (even to build a new trashcan in line for a new B&M Invert) or it may use 90% of the original structure. I do not know.

[Delirium13]

I wasn't suggesting that people Google Son of Beast beforehand, I was just using it as an example of the rides negative image.

When the ride first opened I found it very enjoyable, but I also noticed the ride getting worse as time went on. There was on occasion in which I remember just wanting the ride to end, something I had never felt on a roller coaster before, nor should anyone ever feel like that on something that is supposed to be fun. I remember feeling as if my insides were being rattled, my head beginning to hurt, and the lap bar crushing down on my legs (I had plenty of room when the ride first began). That was the point when I no longer made a point of riding Son of Beast every time I went to the park.

I also like to think of myself as an optimist, but also as a realist. I have been one of Son of Beast's biggest cheerleaders, convincing people to give the ride another shot after it reopened, saying that I thought it was an improvement, but knowing deep down that the ride was still unbearable, just now unbearable without a loop.

While I agree that some people visiting the park for the first time do not know of Son of Beast and its history, I would venture a guess that a good amount do know about it whether seeing news about the accident or hearing about it from a friend who has ridden it. And if a newcomer to the park were to ask the wrong person why the big roller coaster was closed and not on the map while in line for another ride, I can only imagine what they'd think...

I've overheard many times people either exaggerating what occurred in July 2006 (as terrible as it was), and even claiming that someone died on it. While this is not true, it certainly does not make the ride look any better in the eyes of the public.

[shark6495]

Delirium, I agree with much of what you say. But we're talking about far different groups (both of which are well-represented in the park). There are those who have been visiting the park regularly (not enthusiastically, but still regularly) who, of course, recall decades of fun on The Beast. However, there are also those who are "new" visitors (myself included) who are just beginning to visit with their family. Sure they may have occasional memories from childhood, etc. but these are young couples with young children, teenagers who haven't been to the park more than a dozen times their whole life, and many other specific groups - these people call our suspended coaster Top Gun by habit, not by a vendetta against Cedar Fair's horrible names (as some of us do). They don't really recall a time before Paramount, and don't care who owns the park and who doesn't.

The people who I'm talking about don't notice little details or names the way we do - they know The Racer is forwards for whatever reason, Son of Beast has no loop for whatever reason, and Tomb Raider is now The Crypt for whatever reason, if they even know that much. These are the kinds of people who don't care (notice I said "don't care", not "don't know") the difference between Son of Beast and The Beast. They probably don't really know the "tallest" "fastest" longest" titles attributed here and there. They just ride the rides. Then they like them, or dislike them, or somewhere in between, and go about their business.

They don't google "Son of Beast" beforehand, so they don't know the stigma. They just ride the ride and, love it or hate it, go on with their day. We all have friends of friends of friends who (coincidentally, I'm sure) all share the opinion of their closest enthusiast-friend, so none of that can be submitted as evidence, of course...

And contrary to your belief, shark, I do not like Son of Beast. I've ridden it. I've expressed my disinterest in riding it again. My friend have ridden it. I've sat by myself waiting while they rode. Some loved it. Some liked it. None hated it. Take that for what it's worth (very little). It's just, my one pet peeve is people who suggest "worlds biggest bonfire lololololololz zomg" as you do. It's not realistic, it's not funny, it's not clever (anymore), and it's useless to waste everyone's time saying it. If the ride were to never open again, I would not shed a tear. But, I think it has potential. Am I an optimist? Obviously. Is that a bad thing? I never experienced Son of Beast without a wait, even at its 'worst' times post-2007. I can only imagine how popular it would be if it were reworked into a truly A+ ride. It would take a lot of time and money. The best choice will be made, based on many factors. That "best choice" may use one piece of wood from Son of Beast (even to build a new trashcan in line for a new B&M Invert) or it may use 90% of the original structure. I do not know.

emphasis added. Look goodyellowkorn, im not in the mood to start a flame war with you. I never once suggested world's biggest bonfire. I never once said tear it down or keep it standing. I have always sided (as long as I can remember since joining) in the middle, that the rides future will be determined by the parks management. So before you go making blanket statements and adding words to my mouth (computer) please do not lump me into the burn the ride to the ground..... with that being said I apologize because they way you have been sounding lately is you believe the ride still has a future as it is. It seemed you were ignoring rational thoughts and stances, that is why I assumed, wrongly, that you want SoB to reopen as it is right now...... back to the facts.... SoB is closed this summer and only time will tell what the future of the ride will be

[Diamondback96]

People were saying people have died on Diamondback as early as last summer. Has Diamondback had ONE accident yet?

[Fear the Four]

People were saying people have died on Diamondback as early as last summer. Has Diamondback had ONE accident yet?

That is so stupid no one has ever died on Diamondback. Diamondback has never had any accidents at all.

[LongliveKingsCobra]

Well may I just say, if it was open, I would ride it. Why? Well because I love SOB, its a nice, somewhat crazy ride. And being a Ride Warrior I ride on, no matter what , but really I ride it because I like it. I operate on the principle that no matter what, you are in more danger of dying on the way to the park, or even walking up to the front gates, than you are riding the rides...

Cobra, Jus' sayin.