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Fury 325 Support Failure


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I've seen that as well. Looks like Fury is going to be closed for quite a while. It's a good thing everything is bolted together now instead of welded, but it'll still take a bit for Clermont Steel to manufacture a new support and get it shipped to the park. Hopefully B&M will cover the cost.

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7 minutes ago, MDMC01 said:

How did that happen? Could it have been from force/pressure or weather related?

Fury's track flexes quite a bit - so obviously that put a great deal of stress on the support that didn't have much give.  Its a stress break.  

I would suspect a re-engineered support may be in store, not a simple replacement.

I would also expect Orion to be closed pending a close inspection of similar supports.

 

Glad it didn't happen last Friday, when I was there riding it...

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Here is a video, it appears it happened in the middle of the day.  I wonder how long it operated with it broken like that.
 

Likely a lot of inspections going to be happening.  I also expect engineers from B&M to be on site next week inspecting it in person.  While Clermont could likely get them a new support in a few weeks, B&M is likely to redesign it first.  I would also expect B&M will issue a service bulletin to inspect other rides just in case.

I have heard and seen pictures of cracked spines on B&M coasters.  This is the first broken support to my knowledge.

I think I know where this is on the coaster, but please someone correct me if this is wrong.  It looks like the first big turn after the lift hill.  Which means this would be somewhat close to a road.

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34 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

I’m no engineer but it looks like that support should’ve been angled to take the force of the train by instead of being vertical.

Some supports are braced behind the track where the train would be pushing it.  Some are in front of the track in the opposite direction of the imparted forces.  Would really like to hear from a structural engineer as to what they were thinking designing this.  As someone who isn't a structural engineer, surely the only way to fix this is to redesign the entire support structure of the ride to actually brace against the imparted forces and not in the complete opposite (wrong) direction...

Regardless, one should not get their hopes up of a simple fix.  Decent chance that it's SBNO the rest of the year.

Unless, of course, the structural engineers show that this support in question (and all others) are actually doing their job...

30 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

Double Post

From the looks of it 

IMG_5087.jpeg

Yeah, it's the banked turn by the path to/from the bus lot.

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32 minutes ago, SonofBaconator said:

@jsus I wonder if other supports will be redone as well. Again, I’m no engineer, but if one support has undertaken that type of stress, there has to be other supports under similar stress.

Physics tells me that the train is pushing the track into the support in a way that's pulling on the angled leg, not pushing into it, which is what I would expect to see.  Without a degree in structural engineering, it just looks like, for a lack of better terms, the train pushing on the track there essentially tore the support in two, as the lateral (angled) bracing would seem to do nothing structurally.  It's like it pushed it backward with only the vertical support column doing anything until it couldn't take anymore.  There's nothing to catch the lateral forces.

I'd rather be wrong and the engineers who laid out and presumably modeled the structure correct, but that's hard to see...

So yeah, if that's correct, every support braced the wrong way will need reengineered, which they may or may not be able to do without extending supports into the parking lot and elsewhere.

At the same time, B&M has braced other rides the same way.  Just look at Carowinds' Intimidator.  So, who knows?  But even there, it's generally not one perfectly vertical leg and one braced opposite the forces of the passing train...

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It could be lots of things other than a design failure as many coasters from different manufacturers have similar type designs, so it may not be a design flaw.  Especially since B&M tends to be one of the more conservative designs.

It could be a bad batch of steel (AKA King Cobra) or water somehow penetrated internally and was rusting from within or running it in lower temps during Winterfest and Jan-March contributed to brittleness in the steel (and thus minimum operating temps need to be raised as maybe that operating requirement was developed with a temp in mind that it would be much warmer during the day or had been warmer and gets cooler in the evening compared to a temperature just getting to and settling around that temp all day) or a manufacturing defect like a bad weld or bad casting where those two support pieces come together. 

I am sure a thorough investigation will be done to determine the cause.

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2 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

It could be lots of things other than a design failure as many coasters from different manufacturers have similar type designs, so it may not be a design flaw.  Especially since B&M tends to be one of the more conservative designs.

That's the most curious part.  Especially since other B&M rides use similar odd-looking support layouts.

2 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

I am sure a thorough investigation will be done to determine the cause.

Can't really see the ride being able to reopen without at least doing a thorough NDT program on all the structural steel of the ride, even if nothing needs reengineered.  Whether or not we'll be privy to the details remains to be seen.

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12 minutes ago, jsus said:

That's the most curious part.  Especially since other B&M rides use similar odd-looking support layouts.

Can't really see the ride being able to reopen without at least doing a thorough NDT program on all the structural steel of the ride, even if nothing needs reengineered.  Whether or not we'll be privy to the details remains to be seen.

Agreed.  I think if it were a design issue, it would have popped up somewhere else.  Unless they cut into their factor of safety for this ride to get the coaster in under a certain budget number, but again I don't see B&M doing that.

I think an outside influence as I mentioned will be the contributing factor.

It certainly sucks for many parks this year to have their "signature" ride go down or not operate.

Question will be do we wake up in the morning to B&Ms across the country being shut down as a precaution or have they already concluded it wasn't a design error or was something specific to that ride?

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Here's an example from Leviathan of a similar support to the one that failed at Fury 325.  Not sure what to make of it just yet.

image.png

https://goo.gl/maps/TAAxuui8UbgjDKh99

3 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

Agreed.  I think if it were a design issue, it would have popped up somewhere else.  Unless they cut into their factor of safety for this ride to get the coaster in under a certain budget number, but again I don't see B&M doing that.

I think an outside influence as I mentioned will be the contributing factor.

It certainly sucks for many parks this year to have their "signature" ride go down or not operate.

Question will be do we wake up in the morning to B&Ms across the country being shut down as a precaution or have they already concluded it wasn't a design error or was something specific to that ride?

Dunno if it's a budget matter or a spacing matter, or if I'm making a big deal out of sound structural engineering.  :)

All we know is that something caused this support to be unable to withstand the forces imparted by the train through the track into the support in question.

Whether it's an engineering, manufacturing, or maintenance issue (or some combo) definitely does remain to be seen.  And with that, the complexity of the repair is TBD.  One new support from existing CAD plans (surely they still have these backed up!) and some temporary bracing as needed is relatively minor, but again, you'd want to see the rest of the structure inspected.  There's no way you lay out the new supports and footings, get that engineered and validated by an outside engineer preferably, steel fabricated, and everything assembled on site before the end of the year without spending $$$ to rush it like the PA I-95 ditch filling scheme.

Very good question indeed regarding other B&M rides being taken out of service.  Could see a team from B&M flying out to Carowinds ASAP to get some idea of what's happening before pushing guidance out to their client base.  Could also see some park operators being overly cautious.  Thing is, what's the common thread that you'd use to shut down other rides?  All B&M coasters, just hypers/gigas, built in a certain date range, or?  Really hard to say until the inspections start providing insight.  Not sure Cedar Fair is looking to risk any more incidents, given how this incident could've turned out much worse than TTD...

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It is scary to think of what could have happened if the support failure was not caught as soon as it was. Luckily, the failure occurred on a very visible part of the ride, and I assume it was guests or park personnel that noticed the issue and reported it. What if something like this happened in an area not so visible like in the woods? Would it have taken an accident for Carowinds to realize the issue?

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What is scary, and not confirmed or substantiated, is that other outlets are saying that a news channel has been scouring pictures people have taken of Fury and it shows this crack starting over a week ago.

Here is a picture someone claims was taken 6/24.  Is that the crack starting or bad lighting?

image.png

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Hard to tell for sure because it could be shadows, but it does appear that the crack follows that weld where the angled leg meets the vertical one.  May or may not have been forming in that picture.  Again, it's as if the forces were pulling the two legs apart, which would've stressed that weld.  So maybe it's a bad weld, maybe it's a bad design, maybe it's something else.  Expect to see NDT on all the welds...

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8 hours ago, disco2000 said:

What is scary, and not confirmed or substantiated, is that other outlets are saying that a news channel has been scouring pictures people have taken of Fury and it shows this crack starting over a week ago.

Here is a picture someone claims was taken 6/24.  Is that the crack starting or bad lighting?

image.png

I wouldn’t be surprised if that was true, the maintenance department is probably short staffed because either A: they can’t find workers or B: to save money. I can almost guarantee a-lot of the daily maintenance inspections are just check boxes. Something that can easily be pencil whipped. It would be hard to not become complacent as it becomes difficult to thoroughly inspect things when you’re given work normally done by two people day in day out. I have theorized that this was ultimately why TTD’s accident happened. The signs of an issue for the bolts on the bracket for TTD were probably present. But who knows if the bolts for the bracket was actually inspected or if the little white box has a check mark pencil whipped on it. Which would be the reason why ODA found there was "insufficient evidence to find the action or inactions of Cedar Point violated any of the laws".  

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I feel like it is more likely a Carowinds maintenance issue rather than an engineering issue. The support does seem to be a bit odd for the forces applied to it, but considering this potential “flaw” exists on so many other moments on Fury 325 and other B&M coasters, I feel like it couldn’t be an oversight. Also, there are some wacky supports out there where it seems like the structure is not designed for the forces applied (just look at the picture of one of Diamondback’s supports below). Just because these supports may appear that they are not capable of withstanding the forces of the train does not mean they are insufficient.

image.jpeg

If the rumors are true that the crack has been developing for days now, this is a bad look for Carowinds’ maintenance team and Cedar Fair. Small fractures do happen in coasters all the time, but they are quickly fixed before they get out of hand. Carowinds’ maintenance team should be inspecting the whole layout every day and fixing any small fractures in the track. If they missed this fracture for almost a week, allowing the support to completely fail, that is bad.

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6 hours ago, FUN&ONLY! said:

I feel like it is more likely a Carowinds maintenance issue rather than an engineering issue. The support does seem to be a bit odd for the forces applied to it, but considering this potential “flaw” exists on so many other moments on Fury 325 and other B&M coasters, I feel like it couldn’t be an oversight. Also, there are some wacky supports out there where it seems like the structure is not designed for the forces applied (just look at the picture of one of Diamondback’s supports below). Just because these supports may appear that they are not capable of withstanding the forces of the train does not mean they are insufficient.

See I disagree. I dont know what maintenance is supposed to do about a situation like this. Its not like maintenance takes a detailed look at everything each morning, even though we would like to believe that. I look at this as a structural error and possible poor design of the support beam in that location. Seeing the videos of the train going past it yesterday was scary and we are super lucky nothing occurred from this.

We always talk about the downstream affects of accidents with intamin coasters with CF parks, it would have been a horrible situation if something this serous happened with B&M. Im glad they found this early and can correct all potential problems that could occur down the line. Its a shame for people who frequent Carowinds that their flagship ride will likely be closed all summer.

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I still think it is going to come down to an outside influence like I mentioned above rather than a design issue.  I think this would have shown before on one of their many coasters if it were a design defect.

You all don't think a manufacturing defect is the reason?  A properly designed support can still have a defect during the manufacturing phase that could show up later.

That cracked and broke where two support columns come together.  We can't tell from the picture whether the angled one was welded onto the vertical one or if it was cast as one piece, but regardless it could be a defect from the factory.

B&M tends to be conservative in their designs.  All the Intamin fan-boys say B&M are forceless coasters - guess what - that same forceless opinion is due to their conservative designs.

And look at it from an overall standpoint - yeah this looks bad (and it is) but the coaster did not fail to complete its circuit and nobody got hurt and heck probably nobody even could tell that rode it, so the overall design did its part to keep everyone safe. 

Who knows how many cycles it ran completely broke - do we think this person lucked out and got video of the first break?  Maybe it ran 4 days before this was noticed.

This further shows the conservative design.  Heck B&M may come out and say the ride could still go without that support LOL.  There are lots of supports in that area and one by itself failing did not cause catastrophic failure.  They may say this wasn't a support designed to hold up the track, but rather to help minimize the movement of a passing a train and as such is redundant as part of their conservative design.

They could very well plate it at that location as a temporary fix and re-open while a new part is being made - but they would have to weigh the PR side on would that fix and get it open be better than keeping it closed until a new part is made.

Contrast that to SOB when a support member broke....

The other B&Ms in our park and others are operating today, so they probably do not think it is a design flaw impacting other similar supports.

 

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21 minutes ago, disco2000 said:

I still think it is going to come down to an outside influence like I mentioned above rather than a design issue.  I think this would have shown before on one of their many coasters if it were a design defect.

You all don't think a manufacturing defect is the reason?  A properly designed support can still have a defect during the manufacturing phase that could show up later.

That cracked and broke where two support columns come together.  We can't tell from the picture whether the angled one was welded onto the vertical one or if it was cast as one piece, but regardless it could be a defect from the factory.

B&M tends to be conservative in their designs.  All the Intamin fan-boys say B&M are forceless coasters - guess what - that same forceless opinion is due to their conservative designs.

And look at it from an overall standpoint - yeah this looks bad (and it is) but the coaster did not fail to complete its circuit and nobody got hurt and heck probably nobody even could tell that rode it, so the overall design did its part to keep everyone safe. 

Who knows how many cycles it ran completely broke - do we think this person lucked out and got video of the first break?  Maybe it ran 4 days before this was noticed.

This further shows the conservative design.  Heck B&M may come out and say the ride could still go without that support LOL.  There are lots of supports in that area and one by itself failing did not cause catastrophic failure.  They may say this wasn't a support designed to hold up the track, but rather to help minimize the movement of a passing a train and as such is redundant as part of their conservative design.

Contrast that to SOB when a support member broke....

The other B&Ms in our park and others are operating today, so they probably do not think it is a design flaw impacting other similar supports.

 

Can't speak for anyone else but something caused it to apparently fail at the weld.  Top contenders would be inadequate engineering, inadequate construction (welding), or inadequate materials.  Not in any particular order.

All I can surmise is that the design of the support put more stress on that weld than an alternative design may have provided.  How much of a role that played in the failure, we can only speculate.

Yes, for the moment the neighboring track and supports were able to bear the load.  But here's the thing.  Most things are intentionally over-engineered.  Also, most things are capable of more load than they are designed for...  for a time.  In time, those things that seemed to cope with higher than rated stress may fail prematurely.

Let's also consider that if this one support column was able to fail this way, first, why?  Second, what's different about the neighboring columns that they're not going to be affected by the same thing?  There's a very strong chance that continuing to send trains would overload other supports the same way this one failed.

See the speculation about carbon fiber failing being able to hold up to several deep sea dives before failing catastrophically surrounding the Titan submersible tragedy.  Just because the material holds up at first to a load which it wasn't adequately designed for, doesn't mean it will continue to do so.  Sure, it survived several dives... until it didn't.

Without that support providing, well, support, it's entirely possible that the track flexed more than it should've, causing stresses there.  It also put higher than anticipated loads on the surrounding supports, which may have prematurely worn them.

Yes, it's likely over-engineered to start, but for how long can the other supports bear that load?  It's a decently high speed section of a long, heavy train going through an unsupported banked curve.  If it were to have continued running much longer, there's a decent chance we would be hearing about a tragic incident at Carowinds, not just a scary failure of the steel structure with all guests returned "safely" to the station before the ride shut down.

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I am concerned that Carowinds maintenance missed it for what now appears to be a week.  They should be doing a visual inspection of the entire ride daily and we have people going back through their pictures from the last week and you can see it progress from the top of the weld to slowly tear the support apart.  I understand how it got missed the first day or two.  But I saw a picture from Thursday the day before it was closed and it’s very obvious.

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12 minutes ago, Kenban said:

I am concerned that Carowinds maintenance missed it for what now appears to be a week.  They should be doing a visual inspection of the entire ride daily and we have people going back through their pictures from the last week and you can see it progress from the top of the weld to slowly tear the support apart.  I understand how it got missed the first day or two.  But I saw a picture from Thursday the day before it was closed and it’s very obvious.

What is B&M's recommended nightly/weekly/etc. structural inspection process like?  What does Carowinds do each night?  Would off season NDT on the welds have picked this up?

What can a skilled mechanic reasonably be expected to see when staring up from the ground, at night (what lights are on then?), 100'+ straight up, looking at welds?  Or would they be walking the track and bending over the side?  Pretty sure they don't send cranes around regularly for inspection.  From the ground, the developing crack could easily look like a shadow.

Pictures might make it seem obvious, but what about from the perspective of someone on the ground, who is used to never noticing anything like this?  Even commercial pilots who are supposed to thoroughly run through checklists for safety have been known to fly through them because, expecting to see something, that's what they see even if it's not right.

Do we see parks acquire fleets of drones for nightly inspections like how electrical utilities will send them out to scan their overhead lines for damage?

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