Backlot Stunt Coaster Trains Being Stripped of Their Theming

[Aaron88stang]

some headlight stickers would really help. Maybe they will add them at some point.

[bkroz]

^ Psshhh how long have you been visiting Cedar Fair's Kings Island?!

In other news, my friend (who I did not prompt by complaining about the changes to the trains) immediately gasped, said the trains were easily her favorite of any ride she'd been on, and commented that it looked like the MINIs were taken to a chop shop - hubcaps, mirrors, windshield, license plates, headlights, and doors all ripped off. Like some awful car thieves got ahold of them. I laughed, because that honestly is what it looks like.

[thekidd33]

But does it affect the ride's appearance? Obviously, yes. And in a very bad way. Did they think we wouldn't notice?

I think they were well aware that WE (KICers, ACEers, etc) would notice and I'm sure they knew it wouldn't go over well in the enthusiast community. I think they were counting (hoping?) on the average person not noticing/caring though.

[bkroz]

But does it affect the ride's appearance? Obviously, yes. And in a very bad way. Did they think we wouldn't notice?

I think they were well aware that WE (KICers, ACEers, etc) would notice and I'm sure they knew it wouldn't go over well in the enthusiast community. I think they were counting (hoping?) on the average person not noticing/caring though.

A deadly mistake - you can get rid of fog machines, get rid of soundtracks, get rid of water and the public may say "Hm, something feels different / missing." But the trains were undoubtedly and unequivocally the thing that the ride was known for. People who didn't know the name of the ride knew it was the MINI Cooper ride. The trains were really charming, and I think a lot of people were taken aback by how nice they were (and how fun). It was just a feel-good aspect of the ride.

[thekidd33]

^I totally agree. The detail on those trains added a lot to the ride for me, esp as the special effects slowly but steadily disappeared over the years.

[bkroz]

Just a few interesting comments from a FUNWORLD Article posted on our own CEO, Mr. Kinzel, before the Paramount Parks acquisition. Note that as anyone would, I have a specific intention for posting these snippets and am manipulating the article to display the information I find most interesting - give it a thorough read-through yourself to judge fairly.

However many changes have taken place through the years and no matter try how much bigger the rides and attractions are today, Kinzel says the basics of the park industry haven’t changed: “Take the lipstick off any park and underneath, it’s still a carnival. Disney changed the appearance of parks in the 1950s with Disneyland, but we are all still operating dressed-up carnivals.”

Emphasis added.

One might argue that, while Cedar Point or Dorney Park are undoubtedly "dressed-up carnivals", parks like Kings Dominion, Knott's Berry Farm, Canada's Wonderland, and even Kings Island are far from it. Has his tune changed since the Paramount Parks acquisition? One might look at particular and nonspecific actions undertaken by the Company as of late and say, "no." It was shocking to me to read that. Perhaps I'm making more of it than I ought to. But to hear what so many of us have always thought come straight from the mouth of the Man himself - it's almost like foreshadowing.

It was at that point Kinzel made the decision to make Cedar Point the “Coaster Capital of the World.” While most parks of the time were busy becoming theme parks, Cedar Point stepped aside to remain a thrill and ride destination. “Our coasters were and still are our theme,” adds Kinzel.

Again, emphasis added.

One might argue that Cedar Fair continues to use the idea of "coasters" as their theme. Even in the Paramount Parks, there's clearly a phasing out of intentional theme going on - the negligibles (MINI liscence, lights, water, music, fog, pre-shows) are all removed without even an attempt at replacement. Not even a generic replacement. Just plain old removal. It seems this is no coincidence, and has been Mr. Kinzel's intention for quite some time.

I imagine most people have read the article, but if you haven't you really ought to. Recall that it was from a time when Cedar Fair still saw the Paramount Parks and their theme-rich, family-sized rides as apples to their oranges. Note, too, that this article also states Mr. Kinzel's intentions to leave the Company in January 2008. For those who don't know, it's nearly May 2010...

One can only wonder what his plans are today and perhaps more importantly, if his successor will share his view of our park being a "dressed-up carnival." Feels good, doesn't it? To know we have such an innovator at the helm?

As always, food for thought, and nothing more.

[PREMiERdrum]

Just a few interesting comments from a FUNWORLD Article posted on our own CEO, Mr. Kinzel, before the Paramount Parks acquisition. Note that as anyone would, I have a specific intention for posting these snippets and am manipulating the article to display the information I find most interesting - give it a thorough read-through yourself to judge fairly.

However many changes have taken place through the years and no matter try how much bigger the rides and attractions are today, Kinzel says the basics of the park industry haven’t changed: “Take the lipstick off any park and underneath, it’s still a carnival. Disney changed the appearance of parks in the 1950s with Disneyland, but we are all still operating dressed-up carnivals.”

Emphasis added.

One might argue that, while Cedar Point or Dorney Park are undoubtedly "dressed-up carnivals", parks like Kings Dominion, Knott's Berry Farm, Canada's Wonderland, and even Kings Island are far from it. Has his tune changed since the Paramount Parks acquisition? One might look at particular and nonspecific actions undertaken by the Company as of late and say, "no." It was shocking to me to read that. Perhaps I'm making more of it than I ought to. But to hear what so many of us have always thought come straight from the mouth of the Man himself - it's almost like foreshadowing.

It was at that point Kinzel made the decision to make Cedar Point the “Coaster Capital of the World.” While most parks of the time were busy becoming theme parks, Cedar Point stepped aside to remain a thrill and ride destination. “Our coasters were and still are our theme,” adds Kinzel.

Again, emphasis added.

One might argue that Cedar Fair continues to use the idea of "coasters" as their theme. Even in the Paramount Parks, there's clearly a phasing out of intentional theme going on - the negligibles (MINI liscence, lights, water, music, fog, pre-shows) are all removed without even an attempt at replacement. Not even a generic replacement. Just plain old removal. It seems this is no coincidence, and has been Mr. Kinzel's intention for quite some time.

I imagine most people have read the article, but if you haven't you really ought to. Recall that it was from a time when Cedar Fair still saw the Paramount Parks and their theme-rich, family-sized rides as apples to their oranges. Note, too, that this article also states Mr. Kinzel's intentions to leave the Company in January 2008. For those who don't know, it's nearly May 2010...

One can only wonder what his plans are today and perhaps more importantly, if his successor will share his view of our park being a "dressed-up carnival." Feels good, doesn't it? To know we have such an innovator at the helm?

As always, food for thought, and nothing more.

Now, it's pretty obvious around here that I'm not a Kinzel fan, by any stretch of the imagination. However, I'll totally agree with him here. Even the best parks (with one exception I can think of [more on that later]) are dressed up carnivals.

Carnivals were (and to a lesser extent, are) successful because of the sense of escape and wonder they offer. As other forms of entertainment developed and grew (movies, radio, television), these attractions had to become bigger, better, and more elaborate in order to attract their customers away from the cinemas and televisions.

What Walt Disney did was build a carnival that was up to his standards, that's all. At its core, it was still just a carnival. Even now, Disney uses off the shelf carnival ride systems in their attractions, albeit "dressed up" (sound familiar?). There's nothing wrong with a park being a dressed up carnival, and it certainly doesn't mean things cant have a theme/story. The themeing is simply the dressing. The only exception to this that I can think of is Epcot, which I think was the last truly visionary themed experience.

As far as the expiration of the Mini/BMW license, I don't think we could have expected anything different. Is it worth paying them just so that the trains can look like their cars? That's essentially paying BMW so that the park ca advertise their vehicles for them. I'm honestly surprised that they were allowed to keep the train shells at all, since they're still quite obviously supposed to be Mini Coopers. I think that this is why we won't see any sort of headlight stickers be applied to the front. I'm sure that BMW had to approve the removal of the Mini "look", and I think we should consider ourselves lucky that the park didn't have to rebody the trains all together, as that would have taken substantial capital from other projects. It looks like the park got things just generic enough to satisfy BMW while still being able to keep the original trains.

And as for "CF" taking the theme out of TR:TR/The Crypt, I wouldn't place the blame on corporate as much as I would management at the park level. If it were a CF mandate to tear out all the TR:TR themeing, we would have seen the same thing at KD. If it were a CF mandate that the effects weren't important, we wouldn't still see them at KD, nor would we see a strikingly similar installation (with working effects!) at CGA in Firefall. I would venture to guess that the new names and logos were handed down from corporate, and the parks were responsible for changes to the rides themselves. KI obviously went much, much farther than KD did with the strip job, but it doesn't appear that corporate had a problem with the way either one was done.

We have to remember that once a ride is built and opened, the operations and maintenance of that ride becomes the responsibility of the park, not corporate. If an effect breaks, capital from the parks budget is what would be used to fix it. This used to be a huge problem for the Busch parks, as corporate would build the ride, but not supply enough in the maintenance budget to keep the effects up. Journey to Atlantis at SWO has been the biggest example of this problem but there are many, many more.

Let's not forget that TR:TR was in pretty sorry shape effects-wise before CF got the park. I'm sure that, even today, the effects could be repaired and a new show designed around the current ride cycle. I'm also sure that there are some who work for the park who would love to see that happen. By doing that, though, you're going to take capital that could go to other, more "important" projects (not that working effects aren't important, but I totally understand the park's prioritization of late). As rides become more and more advanced, this problem will likely become more pronounced. Shoot, even Disney is in a similar situation right now with AK's Expedition:Everest. The yeti, which was heralded as the most advanced AA ever produced, hasn't worked correctly for 3 years. That's right. The "star" attraction at the newest park on property hasn't coughed up the cash to fix the yeti in 3 years. Why? Because doing so would take away most (if not all) of the maintenance budget and they've decided it's not worth letting the rest of the park suffer so that 1 ride can work right. As an armchair imangineer and park fan, does it suck? Sure it does! I hate knowing what the ride is supposed to look like with all the effects working (steam coming from the trains, all 3 waterfalls, snow at the peak of the mountain, the bird at the broken tracks, and the Yeti's "A" mode) and then seeing how it operates today.

Do I hope effects at KI get fixed? Absolutely. Do I understand if they deem other projects more important? Yes.

[thekidd33]

I think the trains just happen to be more of a 'last straw' for a lot of people that have known and loved KI as a THEME park. It's become a lot tougher under CF to continue to use that description. KI is rapidly becoming an amusement park and I think that that plays a large role (at least for me) in the outrage over the blsc trains.

[bkroz]

I think the trains just happen to be more of a 'last straw' for a lot of people that have known and loved KI as a THEME park. It's become a lot tougher under CF to continue to use that description. KI is rapidly becoming an amusement park and I think that that plays a large role (at least for me) in the outrage over the blsc trains.

Absolutely. The notion that the look of the train "has nothing to do with the ride" is true. It's true of fog. It's true of synchronized soundtracks. It's true of water effects. It's true of pre-shows. It's true of lighting. But what I love Kings Island for isn't the individual rides, but the individual experiences. There's no denying that Tomb Raider was an experience. Italian Job was an experience. Even Drop Zone, to an extent, was an experience - the speil about being filmed for a movie stunt, the target painted on the queue house, the "flames" on the torches. It's the experience that's so damaged when the special effects and little details are lost.

Again, look at Disney, or Universal - parks that are literally built on "little details." The "unnecessaries" are what sets Disney and Universal apart. Love Paramount or hate them, you must admit that they always added "unnecessaries" that added to the experience. For the difference between a ride with "unnecessaries" and one without, see Tomb Raider -> The Crypt. See Italian Job -> Backlot Stunt Coaster. Truth be told, if you had to chose one, nearly all of us would chose the former every single time.

I have said, and will continue to say, that I would take the on-its-last-leg Tomb Raider over our current Crypt any day of the week. Because on that ride, there was pulse-pounding music, the goddess' eyes lit up, the wall panels immersed you in the "temple," the water fountains worked. Even once the lasers and effect lights had burned out, there was still a feeling of intention. It was still clear that this ride was unique and different.

Today, the ride is literally a top spin in a box. There's no attempt and no intention (not even a feeble one) to disguise that.

[PREMiERdrum]

I think the trains just happen to be more of a 'last straw' for a lot of people that have known and loved KI as a THEME park. It's become a lot tougher under CF to continue to use that description. KI is rapidly becoming an amusement park and I think that that plays a large role (at least for me) in the outrage over the blsc trains.

Absolutely. The notion that the look of the train "has nothing to do with the ride" is true. It's true of fog. It's true of synchronized soundtracks. It's true of water effects. It's true of pre-shows. It's true of lighting. But what I love Kings Island for isn't the individual rides, but the individual experiences. There's no denying that Tomb Raider was an experience. Italian Job was an experience. Even Drop Zone, to an extent, was an experience - the speil about being filmed for a movie stunt, the target painted on the queue house, the "flames" on the torches. It's the experience that's so damaged when the special effects and little details are lost.

Again, look at Disney, or Universal - parks that are literally built on "little details." The "unnecessaries" are what sets Disney and Universal apart. Love Paramount or hate them, you must admit that they always added "unnecessaries" that added to the experience. For the difference between a ride with "unnecessaries" and one without, see Tomb Raider -> The Crypt. See Italian Job -> Backlot Stunt Coaster. Truth be told, if you had to chose one, nearly all of us would chose the former every single time.

I have said, and will continue to say, that I would take the on-its-last-leg Tomb Raider over our current Crypt any day of the week. Because on that ride, there was pulse-pounding music, the goddess' eyes lit up, the wall panels immersed you in the "temple," the water fountains worked. Even once the lasers and effect lights had burned out, there was still a feeling of intention. It was still clear that this ride was unique and different.

Today, the ride is literally a top spin in a box. There's no attempt and no intention (not even a feeble one) to disguise that.

I agree 100%, I just think that we're being much too general when we say "Cedar Fair ruined The Crypt" or "Cedar Fair sucks at themeing." I was trying to get across that the individual parks are responsible for maintaining the effects. CF Planning and Design has overseen the installation of Thunderhawk (WoF) which has synchronized water jets, Firefall (CGA) with water and fire effects, and also "allowed" KD to keep their TR:TR pretty much intact when transitioning to The Crypt. They've also been better than Paramount ever was at matching new attractions to the areas they're in (Firehawk, Diamondback - although I really don't like what they've done with the Intimidators).

I would love for the effects to all be fixed, I really would. I'm only arguing that these cuts are likely coming from the park level, not from Sandusky. CW's BLSC fire effects are all not working. Why would that be? I would guess that 1. they were not properly maintained and are broken, or 2. the operation of these effects were deemed "too expensive" by park management and they were turned off. Meanwhile, 2 of KI's 3 are working, the fire effects on The Crypt at KD are working, the fire effects on Firefall at CGA are working, etc... Do you see why I don't believe this is a company-wide issue?

[bkroz]

Absolutely. And just to sort of back that up (this is a coincidence, because I found this today, but it works so well), take a look at this

of Kings Dominion put together by Coaster Fusion. Then, pay careful attention just after 1:10... Yes, Backlot Stunt Coaster has a splashdown at Kings Dominion. But the plot thickens - their splashdown fountains were removed completely last year, as ours were. That means that, essentially, they re-added the splashdown. They didn't just flip a switch or anything; they physically re-attached the apparatus.

Sure, it only "splashes down" on one side, but it's the only side that's really visible anyway...

Will ours be returned? I doubt it. Not only because, as you mentioned, these themeing constraints are clearly not coming from on-high, but from the individual park management. The other reason? Why add a fake splashdown when there's a real one 100 yards away? Of course, I would KILL to see the splashdown return, even in half-form like Kings Dominions... But for those two reasons, I don't expect it.

So what it comes down to is one thing we've just deduced, and one thing we've known for a while: the park's are individually making these theme cuts (even by omission), and Kings Dominion is just plain better themed than Kings Island in just about every way.