bkroz

One thing that I'm surprised you haven't learned after such a long time here, Tomkatt, is that The Interpreter often has to "choose his words very, very carefully." There was a time when I thought what you said - he rarely offered sources and everything seemed like an opinion. Getting to know him, though, you'll find that he has sources, and plenty of them. I imagine most people, even those within Cedar Fair's employment, do not know exact numbers. And quite frankly, there's probably a good reason. Besides, it's really common sense - if it was cheaper to renew the Nick contract, they would have renewed the Nick contract... It was apparently cheaper to essentially re-do five kids areas from scratch than to renew the Nick contract... 2 + 2 = the Nick contract was very expensive. Separately, perhaps Viacom did not want the parks to continue to use Nickelodeon, and thus charged an outrageous amount? Could they do that?

If there comes a time when a companies finances require they only run what is "essential" on a ride (ex. the breaks, the chain...) and they couldn't run extras even if they wanted to (flames, water, music), then perhaps, just perhaps, they should not own said ride, or the park in which it resides, anymore. If Cedar Fair is going to "die," it is not fair for them to drag us down with them.

^ You can't. They can. They don't. Maybe someone will. It is impossible to go back to 1996. It is not impossible to re-theme The Crypt, to re-start the effects on Adventure Express or Backlot, or to play the correct music on International Street. Is it difficult? Maybe... It is possible? Yes.

For some people, the music, the flames, the water, the fog, all add to the fun. Trust me on that. Nothing starts my day off better than the grand music on International Street - without it, the park feels different. Many can attest to this. Additionally, riding Backlot Stunt Coaster is more fun with music and flames and water... And The Crypt is more fun with music and fog and lasers. Denying that would be silly. And trust me on this: I have visited guest services, and according to the wonderful folks who work there, I'm not alone: "Change things back to the way they used to be." That's what I was told is the main thing that they hear at Guest Relations. Take that for what it's worth.

This is a short "review" I wrote last year after my trip in August. It doesn't really merit its on "trip report" so I'll just post it here. If you have any questions, there are probably those more knowledgeable than I, but I'll do my best! Overall: Kings Dominion really is beautiful. I guess you have to be when you're up against Busch Gardens, but I feel like the whole park was build in the dense forests of Virginia. International Street really is like, fountains dug through dense foliage which has clearly been around for years and years. If you ask me (many have disagreed) you can immediately tell that Kings Island ended up being a "prototype" and that Kings Dominion was built after Taft has some moolah. The International Street buildings are all beautifully textured. And the entrance to the park has castle turrets and lanterns... Very well-themed! As far as atmosphere, I am literally jealous of Kings Dominion. The Congo area is so incredible. It's ground is brick work similar to our new Rivertown, but throughout. And to make things even better, the entire Congo area plays (literally) the score from Lara Croft: Tomb Raider. Trust me, I have it on my iPod. The movie score is literally broadcast throughout the Congo area. At night, the area is consistantly lit by flames from The Crypt and Volcano, with the incredible score playing... It's literally like being in a Disney or Universal park. Dominator - A must-ride. It's a B&M Floorless coaster, used to operate at Geauga Lake up here in Ohio. As expected, it's smooth as the day is long. Volcano: The Blast Coaster - Truly a surprise for me. I knew this ride's wait was the longest in the park on most days (and it was so today - 40 minutes in the morning, 20 at night), and that after the launch, the rest of the ride was sort of coasting with some inline-twists. And while literally seconds after the launch you do realize you're at "cruising" speed and will be so for the remainder of the short ride, the inversions (which turned out to be heartline rolls - my first ever!) are incredible. I'd never been through a heartline roll, and they're so unbelievable. Inline-twists / barrel rolls usually leave me feeling drained. But these rolls were incredible! Relaxing, almost. Obviously I'd love a longer ride, but I'd say that no matter how long the ride was. The Crypt - Original Tomb Raider music... Fire... Fountains... This ride was, as expected, great. It does nine complete inversions. To be honest, though, it's more fun to watch than it is to ride. Most top spins are that way when they're special-effects-laden. This only amplified by belief that Kings Island needs to get a suspended Top Spin with an identical blueprint and setup with identical effects and music in place of the current Crypt. I can't even explain how amazing the Congo is at night... With Volcano exploding, The Crypt sending up fire and water, pulse-pounding music... It's unparalleled. I'm very jealous of Kings Dominion for having this section of the park. Flight of Fear - First of all, the queue. Be happy we have the one we do. All of the inner queue's switchbacks are taken up by a haunted house that took place (will take place?) inside the building. That means all of the switchbacks are guarded by eight foot tall black plywood, so you can't see the saucer til you're at the steps of it. Also, all of the hanger lighting is off. The house lights are on, and none of the "effect" lights are utilized. On the flip side, the lights within their ship still work, and their station is lit very beautifully. Surprising, their ride takes place in pitch black darkness. It caught me very much by surprise. I know that's how Paramount used to run it (right?), but to be honest, I like the red and purple lights in the spaghetti bowl. The launch passes right through the center of the knot, and it looks incredible to see all the track around you. It was literally pitch black inside. You couldn't see a hand in front of your face. It definitely made the ride more intense, but I truly do prefer it with the lights on. Backlot Stunt Coaster Kings Dominion's Backlot Stunt Coaster needs some TLC. We rode at 9:30 (it was very dark) and none of the lights on the ride were turned on. No police cars, no billboards, no road signs... Just darkness. It sucked, because BLSC really is one of my favorite rides to ride at night. The fire, the signs, the police... It's such an experience. Also, only the fire closest to helicopter works correctly. The one closest to the train doesn't ignite (its pilot light does, but it never plumes) and the large upward explosion happens (get this) just as the final car passes under it. So riders in the blue and red car don't see it. People in the first row of the back car only hear it, and the very last row can catch a glimpse if they look up as they pass under it. And yes, it does that every day. I asked. Drop Zone The world's other and proper tallest drop ride... Kings Dominion's Drop Tower is some pretty ugly colors. I love how ours is different colored sections all the way up, very bright and attention-grabbing. Kings Dominion's is alternating pink and orange back and forth all the way up, with avocado seats and catch car. It doesn't rotate on the way up, which is actually to its advantage... It goes up and comes down in probably 30 seconds total... It's a people eater! The catch car comes down just as quickly. Scooby Doo & The Haunted Mansion - Sorry, but their SDATHM is a billion times better than ours. You enter the mansion by crossing a bayou (complete with crocodile, bubbling swamp water, and life-sized, stuck-in-the-mud mystery machine). The queue line has "profiles" of all the Mystery Inc. (ex. Shaggy. Real Name: Norville Rogers. Hair: Messy. Height: 6' ... Who knew Velma was 15 and Fred and Daphne were 17?!). The ride itself is better not only because it features so many more scenes and more intricate props, but also because you can actually see where your lasers are shooting at. I always feel embarassed on our SDATHC when I have to tell my friends "Oh yeah, and you can't see where you're shooting." I really don't know why you can't see with ours? KD's guns are the same, and you can see a red dot wherever you hit the wall.

Let's see, spending money on contracts that are unnecessary, but add the overall experience? Effects that require maintenence, but payoff when maintained correctly? Spending money on things that aren't necessarily essential to the ride, but still intricate and fun? I believe that's exactly what Paramount did, and as I recall, the Paramount Parks were always doing fine, and had attendance matching Cedar Fair's, but while owning two less parks. They managed to add small to medium sized additions to all of their parks nearly every single year that had nice effects that, even on their worst days, were miles beyond anything that Cedar Point has ever even dreamed of having. Now we get one huge addition, then nothing for four years. Diamondback is worth the wait, yes, but now what? For the next four years all of the remaining contracts in the park will expire. We'll have piles and piles of generic rides with no theme and no details. Then we'll get a big addition and we'll just all get over it? I don't think so. Consider that the Paramount Parks, even in the deflated states, are still the highlights of the entire Cedar Fair chain. Because the sad, tiny little details that are desperately clinging to Backlot Stunt Coaster are still lightyears beyond anything Cedar Point has to offer. But I ask, once the flames stop working, do you think they'll be replaced? Every time a lightbulb burns out in The Crypt, it's just one less light. It won't be replaced. Every effect, every detail, will disappear one by one till we're nothing more than a smaller, "lamer" Cedar Point. That's where we're headed. It really is. Kings Island is an amusement park now. It's sad. But it is.

I agree with much of what you said, but must fall back on a few things: The idea of Kings Dominion working further on the trains as the summer progresses is nearly out of the question. The trains are on the track. Do you think they will carefully hop from one side of the station to the other applying decals? It would seem to me, admittedly as a layman in this department, that any cosmetic changes would occur off the track, in the maintenance shop. I could be dead wrong. Another thing is, you are correct that the MINI is distinct - the circular mirrors, the circular headlights, and the characteristic "stripes" on the hood certainly had to be removed. But license plates? Keep in mind, these are licensed plates that were just recently updated to include the new Kings Island logo. I say again that, if MINI owns the rights to license plates, I have some serious fees to pay. I don't imagine any court would accept that Kings Island is, as BMW claimed with Freestyle, unfairly benefitting from a false endorsement, because a car-themed roller coaster has license plates. I understand that the doors were likely a maintenance issue at least once, and when they train goes under for a change, you say "Well, let's just get rid of the doors while we're doing this." But license plates are certainly not the property of BMW, and headlights can easily be replaced with something shaped differently. They literally just painted over the entire carriage, and as was said, it looks like a $.05 toy from a drug store. Plus, making the trains all-red, all-white, and all-blue? Why?! At this point, the ride is so distanced from its Italian Job identity that it would take a lot of talk to convince a first time visitor that the ride ever had anything to do with the film. Thus, I fear this may be yet another example of Cedar Fair changing something just because they can. If you ask me, we can make excuses til the cows come home, and say they were just being "overly cautious," but I've started to learn that the heads of Cedar Fair do not think in terms of "Well if we save money here, we can build better rides later." They think in terms of "Let's not spend any money, period. No water, no fire, no music, no effects, no fog, no BMWs. No one will notice." Dear Mr. Kinzel, We noticed.

Don't be silly, Terp - the park is back to the way it was back before Paramount! That's what we've been hearing since 2007, after all. You think it would be just as easy to rename Fairly Odd Coaster to "The Beastie" as it would be to name it "Woodstock Express?" Balderdash! And unifying the parks where it's cheap (Snoopy, logos, menus, ride names) certainly doesn't bode well for the former Paramount Parks instead utilizing the beloved Scooby Doo, whose license certainly could be renewed for decades without outrageous cost. These things aren't just so cut and dry! Sure it would honor the parks heritage and actually take a step in the much-touted "pre-Paramount" direction, but who cares about things like that?! Not everyday visitors... ... right?

Seriously... You can't ask that yourself? FIRST of all, that's MY dog, thank you very much! It wasn't easy to train him to use Facebook, and all he gets is backlash! Good grief! All things old are new again: Tower Gardens was the name of that area before it was renamed The Paramount Story.

Yes, it's true, we pay $11.00 for a slice of dripping-wet pizza and a small fountain beverage while Universal visitors pay less than double that for all-day, all-you-care-to-eat trips through the food service lines including dessert. Disney's food costs less and is much better (both for you and in taste). Busch Gardens & SeaWorld offer higher quality food than most amusement parks for prices still lower than Cedar Fair. But, I'm sure our extra nickels are going towards something good!

Almost ironically, if our park was Universal's Kings Island, or Disney's Kings Island, food prices would drop, and food quality would increase exponentially. I kid you not. I very much enjoyed my $3.50 cheese, cracker, and meat platter for breakfast at Epcot in January. It was quite large, very fresh, and incredibly delicious. Likewise for my $8.00 (retail price, but "free" with my $20.00 all-you-can-eat-all-day-wristband) pasta & breadsticks, with dessert, at Universal Orlando.

And it's another time when I think to myself "Oh I'm sure they're planning on doing something - adding a dragster fin to the cars, putting on headlights, etc." But the fact of the matter is, just like post-Paramount, they've had plenty of time to consider alternatives, knowing full-well that the BMW license was ending. It's just like when they had a full year of planning, and 'Flight Deck,' 'Drop Tower,' etc are still the best we got. They had plenty of time to think of ways to remedy this forthcoming situation, and apparently, didn't take any action. What a surprise.

Who are you talking about??? I believe he's talking about the person who answers the 5@5 questions - if they were unhappy about Snoopy, or Backlot, or The Crypt, they certainly couldn't say it. They'd be required (whether its directly stated or not) to back up the park's decisions and to always try to market any change as a good change. In other words, he or she may hate the fact that Nickelodeon is leaving, but it's the point of their job to talk it up, be excited about it, and defend it. If they answered in the 5@5 "Yeah, I'm not too happy about Snoopy coming either... But maybe it'll grow on people?" they would most certainly find themselves at odds with the higher ups, and possibly out of a job.

Have you seen the trains? Of course it's careless... Look at them! They're rather have repulsive looking trains than to have really cool looking ones. And it's not a matter of paying for the license. Just add on new headlights! And for Heaven's sake, does BMW own the ride to license plates being on cars? If they do, I certainly owe them a hefty sum of money. The fact that they removed the aspects that don't even allude to BMW (doors, headlights, license plates, windshield) certainly makes me feel like they're trying keep it from looking like a car at all. The front of the Intimidator train now looks more like a car than our perfectly-crafted 3/4 scale MINI Coopers. That says something, doesn't it? If the point is that they don't want to pay for the BMW license, alright - at least design a vaguely-car-looking train in-house. But if they can't afford it, then why do they still own these theme parks? If they honestly don't have enough money to pay for the license, it's time to let the parks go. What won't they be able to afford next? First some silly, unnecessary rights like this... Then air conditioning... Then employees to sweep the street... I don't know why folks are saying this money they're saving here is going to another roller coaster. Have you forgotten that Cedar Fair will either be sold, or go bankrupt? The chances of us getting a new roller coaster from Cedar Fair are slim to none to say the least. At least, that's how I feel about it.

Exactly - so when we're not happy, it's not necessarily a "We hate Cedar Fair!" If Paramount did this, I would be ****ed at Paramount! It doesn't matter who did it, because whoever did is doing really useless, careless, and plain old stupid things to the park. Period.

That's what I mean - I realize as of late that, though I continue to have good experiences at Kings Island, it's because in my head I can hear the music on International Street, though it's not playing. Or, I can see the goddess on the wall inside The Crypt, and I recall how she used to "wake up." It always used to shock me when my friends would find Kings Island to be only slightly better than Cedar Point. But realistically, they don't have the benefit of remembering how it used to be, so they can't imagine a park where Premier rides are always set to musical scores, or where a certain Giant Top Spin provides a thrilling and immersive experience. They have not had those experiences, and try as I might, they cannot be coerced into feeling that they have. I will always see those creative and eye-catching MINI Coopers blasting around the track. What will first time visitors see? And is it really that bad? Or does it just seem so awful to me because I always compare it to what it used to be? Either way, I have been let down. Backlot isn't necessarily a fan favorite, but even casually-returning guests will not have this go unnoticed. If our trains look like Kings Dominion's, we're talking a MAJOR change that isn't going to simply blow over people's heads. It will be noticed. It's like a bad relationship - no matter how low they stoop or how many shortcuts they take, my excuse is always "But, I love it!" "It used to be so nice, and I know that the better version is still inside!" "Something will happen and it will change and we can live happily ever after!" Sigh...

It's very true - with the really "magical" parks, its the theme, the immersion, that really makes it. Think of Universal's Islands of Adventure - break it down and what have you got? Two roller coasters, two dark rides, three water rides, and shows. Why, then, is it consistantly considered one of if not the best theme park in the United States? It's the character! The themes, the relatable characters, the "streetmosphere," the feeling of being whisked away! I don't have conscious memories of Kings Island any further back than 1999, but even then I could feel an excitement and a sense of adventure that I no longer feel... The grand music on International Street, the dancing fountains, the lights, the sounds, the flowers, the waterfalls, the rivers... It was all so inclusive and so extraordinary. To know that I was in Ohio riding rides like Tomb Raider or The Racer or Flight of Fear or The Beast. Each one made the park, each could stand alone as a flagship attraction, each was so well-concieved and so intricate and detailed that it made me feel like I was someplace special, because I was! I no longer feel that, hard as I try. And please know, I do try.

And there is a reason ours is the first and only Giant one... The reason? See, The Crypt.

You can sort of tell that Premier might've kind of tried to weasel their way around the BMW thing... I mean, if they wanted to make MINI Coopers, they could've used the same cast as our ride. The fact that it's a little differently shaped and there are a couple of "tweaks" makes me think they were preparing themselves for: "Look, they're not MINI Coopers! We made MINI Coopers for the Paramount Parks, and these are different!"

^ And they're currently being sued for it, right?

I disagree with that, personally. Paramount put a LOT of investment into the park: 1996 - Flight of Fear 1997 - WaterWorks doubles in size 1998 - Three new kids rides, Action Theater movie changed 1999 - FACE/OFF and Drop Zone 2000 - Son of Beast 2001 - Nick Central 2002 - Tomb Raider: The Ride 2003 - Scooby Doo & The Haunted Castle, Delirium 2005 - Italian Job Not saying Cedar Fair isn't following in the same footsteps, just that it would be silly to say that Paramount didn't do huge investments, because they did. And while they were doing this, they were putting equally large investments into Kings Dominion, Carowinds, etc. Cedar Fair's sort of on a rotational program with two parks getting big rides every year, whereas in 2005 Paramount built two Italian Jobs and Tomb Raider: Firefall, as well as smaller additions at their other two parks so there were rarely any "dead years" where the parks were left unchanged. Sure it was more 'medium sized' additions like Scooby Doo rather than huge investments, but it kept the parks fresh and clearly there was never a problem with attendance... 2+2=?

If God is answering my prayers, not for long.

There's not a single ride I can think of that was here before Paramount that got re-branded with a movie name. If Paramount didn't own the park, here are some things we would not have: Drop Tower Invertigo Backlot Stunt Coaster Tomb Raider: The Ride Son of Beast Action Theater Scooby Doo & the Haunted Castle Flight of Fear Flying Ace Avatar It would be a very different park today had Paramount not owned it. That can be good or bad. There are those who would say that, had Paramount not purchased the park, it would not be open today. Similarly, should Cedar Fair put the parks up for sale and find no bidders, the park may not exist in the future. Paramount wanted to "put the park on the map" and in many ways, they did. We would certainly have a much different park without them, and as a Northeast Ohioan, I probably would not know it the way that I do if it were never owned by such a corporation. Cedar Fair has continued the trend and added two fantastic new rides. The question is, of course, if its worth it to sacrifice theme in order to gain thrills. There was a time, as I recall, that people were upset with the park sacrificing thrills in return for added theme. Few parks have found that perfect balance. I, myself, think that the park was never closer to balanced than it was under Paramount. Of all the theme park owners out there, I would argue Universal is the closest to perfect - they have the thrills that Disney often lacks, but a theme to match Disney's; their parks are very very clean, and their rides have relatable, current, emotional ties. Not to mention they have fantastic employees and great marketing. Cedar Fair is lacking in a few of those categories, as was Paramount.

^Exactly what I'm saying. Removing the things that are dead giveaways to the MINI brand like the stripes and the circular side mirrors. But honest to God, removing the license plates? The wind shields? The headlights? Come on now... Terpy always says "They wouldn't change it unless they had to." But then again, he also sometimes says "Perhaps they changed it just because they could." So which is it this time, Terp? The catch car of the Intimidator 305 train is now more detailed than Backlot Stunt Coaster. And when the 5@5 answerer said something like 'I've never gotten off that ride and said how great the stickers were,' I disagree. In fact, the highly detailed, fun little cars were the first things most people noticed, and all really thought it was clever and inventive.