eek! Top gun!

[catzdrummer09]

Ok...it's really not that complicated. Every single time I have been to the park since SOB opened, not once have I seen anyone come out of that line that wasn't bragging about the rush and excitement from the ride.

And...not once did I say anything about attention from the injuries. I was talking about the ride in general.

[Browntggrr]

Ok...it's really not that complicated. Every single time I have been to the park since SOB opened, not once have I seen anyone come out of that line that wasn't bragging about the rush and excitement from the ride.

And...not once did I say anything about attention from the injuries. I was talking about the ride in general.

Well if you actually stood at the end of the line to see every person, everyday, and get their review of how the ride was, that is complicated.

If you did not do that, you are just giving information of what you wanted to see.

And the accident is talking about the ride in general. How can anyone form an opinion, but not have all the facts? Yes, it is the tallest wooden roller coaster. Yes, it is the fastest wooden roller coaster. Yes, it caused multiple injuries due to a design flaw.

[Outdoor Man]

this is an entertaining "tennis match."

If I were to listen to the comments made about SOB I would assume that those same comments could have applied to the late "Bat" roller coaster, which met a life-ending fate because of..... drum roll........ maintenance costs. It was HUGELY popular. When it was opened always had lines. Of course it was always closed the following day because of those lines. Though technically it wasn't a record breaker, it was the FIRST of its kind and one heck of a ride. BUT- to value was exceeded by the cost of the "bragging rights" and it was removed.

SOB may be a record holder but it design is about 10 quarts shy on creativity and its demise would be no significant loss to the park experience.

If the current ridership evaporates to pre-2007 levels and another mishap or maintenance issue occurs- CF will take the path of least resistance, cut the losses and remove. That's a business decision. If you don't agree with that assessment, reference Geauga Lake.

[catzdrummer09]

^^ It's not "what I wanted to see" when I can clearly hear the comments of others.

[Browntggrr]

^^ It's not "what I wanted to see" when I can clearly hear the comments of others.

You really should listen much closer. What you believe to be cheering for the ride, are actually cheers that the ride is over. If you listen even closer, you will hear the groans of pain.

What you consider how boring SoB's layout is, there really is nothing exciting about the ride. The only rush you get is the speed down the lift hill, after that, it is a jackhammering ride that does not let up.

Now let's look at the facts. There is a constant arguement as to which the best coasters are. Coaster enthusiasts have their own agenda as to which element combination is the best. So every coaster poll you can find has a different top 10.

But guess what?

You'll never believe which wooden coaster is near the bottom of every poll. Yeah, the same one you hear, or claim to hear, cheers for.

Now how can all these polls disagree as to which the best wooden coaster is, yet agree as to which is near the worst? Hmmmm....

Prime example:

http://www.ushsho.com/woodpoll14yeartable2007.htm

Now don't let my comments fool you. I would rather have a terrible SoB than no SoB. But don't try and tell me that a majority of the public loves the ride because you have heard cheering after the ride and you have seen people marathoning it 4 to 5 times. There are some things that cannot be changed no matter how hard you want them to.

[The Interpreter]

Mr. Brown is a great guy, yet we often disagree on things park related. I can find nothing to disagree with in his post above, but for one thing. I would rather have no Son of Beast than the one we have. Just think of all the things the park could have done and should have done with all the money that's been poured into that thing so far. The problem is this....removing it would cost a lot more money than does the average ride installation at the average US amusement park. It is not an action to be taken lightly.

[WooferBearATL]

Mr. Brown is a great guy, yet we often disagree on things park related. I can find nothing to disagree with in his post above, but for one thing. I would rather have no Son of Beast than the one we have. Just think of all the things the park could have done and should have done with all the money that's been poured into that thing so far. The problem is this....removing it would cost a lot more money than does the average ride installation at the average US amusement park. It is not an action to be taken lightly.

I would think that very assumption would be oh so obvious to everyone.

[Browntggrr]

^ Hard to argue that.

For half the original cost of SoB, we could have had a fantastic coaster. (see Voyage or Thunderhead)

Oh well. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

[The Interpreter]

The very high removal cost is probably the ONLY reason it is still there.

So far.

[Browntggrr]

Now that it has been brought up; what would have been more expensive:

1) Removing the loop, making the necessary repairs & modifications, and purchasing/ modifing/ and testing new trains.

2) Complete removal prior to option # 1.

I am no accountant, but that is a tough one.

Especially since CF did not know if option # 1 was going to work.

Big risk.

Real BIG risk.

[CoastersRZ]

But at some point, the park will have to take a hard look at the annual maintenance that the ride requires and seriously consider the expense of removing it. At some point, the park will not want to keep throwing money at the ride, and it will make more sense to pay to get rid of the money pit. When will that be? Who knows. Hopefully, when that day comes, they have a new ride lined up that can draw in the crowds and revenue like Son of Beast was supposed to.

[The Interpreter]

And notice that so far this discussion has not included the costs of litigation and potentially higher insurance premiums, from injuries/claims/suits both prior to the July 2006 incident (including two broken necks), and the July 2006 incident, along with any injuries/claims/suits since...nor the bad publicity that results from those incidents and any future ones, if any.

[WooferBearATL]

I could see SOB listed as SBNO for some time before a decision is actually made to tear the structure down.

[The Interpreter]

And before someone asks, SBNO means standing, but not operating.

[KIBeast]

^^ It's not "what I wanted to see" when I can clearly hear the comments of others.

You really should listen much closer. What you believe to be cheering for the ride, are actually cheers that the ride is over. If you listen even closer, you will hear the groans of pain.

How do you know that for sure? Were you there at that time? Were you in the same crowd? Were you one of the patrons exiting SOB at said time? Maybe, just maybe, the improvements CF has made were enough to make this a likable ride to the GP(and maybe not to YOUR liking). And, have those coaster polls been redone after the problems have been fixed? If not, those opinions really aren't valid any more. I rode SOB last year and it was far better than previous years with the shuffling. I don't find it to be boring at all.

All I'm saying is that you guys are so convinced that no one likes this ride, even after the improvements have been made. Where's the data to back that up?

[Browntggrr]

Where's the data to back that up?

Go to other enthusiast sites to see the data.

Every site has fanboys and haters for a certain park, ride, company etc.

The one thing almost everyone agrees on is that SoB, even with the modifications, could close down tomorrow and they would not be upset.

I would more than happy to give a list of sites, just IM me.

[KIBeast]

^I do agree with you on that. I have read a few TR's and some say the improvements helped, others do not believe so. I've seen about half and half.

However, what about the GP's opinion? Seems to me THAT is probably more important than what the coaster community thinks. Albeit, you'd like to have both.

Believe me tggr, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that maybe your opinion of the coaster is getting in the way of what you believe is the GP's opinion.

[bhartley]

It must not be to bad . There is always a line of people wanting to ride it. If it was as bad as some claim then there would not be anybody left that would want to ride it.

[Browntggrr]

Sure the GP's opinion means more. Enthusiasts make up a very small percentage of the park's attendence.

But it is also the GP that gets most of their information from the local media and word of mouth, neither of which can be considered reliable.

[catzdrummer09]

^ But enthusiast opinions can? I'm really getting tired of seeing people say "well polls say......" or "enthusiasts say....." Honestly, how many people do you think check the web for the opinions of ACEr's etc. opinions on a certain coaster, much less know these organizations exist?

Were you standing with me when I heard these comments?.....highly unlikely....and even if you were I think you're letting your opinion get in the way and you're trying to substitute it for fact.

So seriously, get over the idea that statements made by enthusiasts, translation, enthusiast opinions, and polls of other peoples opinions are what everyone should believe and should be used as fact. I have seen you try to pass these things off as reliable data sources several times and it's really getting old.

[Browntggrr]

^ Well considering that the general public does not compile data, and enthusiasts do gather data, what can be considered valid?

Or should we not listen to anyone, how they feel, or their reaction to a ride? That is just arrogant.

Or is it, nothing is valid because some people want to look through rose colored glasses, and, god forbid, a ride they like is not well recieved.

What I find intresting is: what is the difference between what you heard with those "marathoning" guests on SoB 4-5 times and the information of how others feel that I have provided?

How do you know a majority of the public loves Son of Beast? A majority of the public doesn't even go to Kings Island..of those who do, a majority doesn't ride the roller coasters...of those who do, I doubt a majority of that minority of a minority even rides Son of Beast, much less loves it...

Well though I never claimed to be a statistical genius I think it is made pretty obvious when all I've ever heard is cheering after the ride and watched people "marathon", if you will, the thing about 4-5 times.

And, what is the difference between myself using an enthusiast internet site as a source of information, and you discrediting them, but you can use and enthusiast site, and post information as if it's valid?

I have good/semi-confirming news. If anyone has been reading the new track? thread you have seen the new red B&M track photos and the dispute between whether it's for KI or for Sea World in Florida where they're building a flyer called manta. Well, screamscape has artwork posted (which they can back up) and the track ISN"T RED...IT"S BLUE!!!

here's the link http://www.screamscape.com/html/seaworld_florida.htm

So the sites you bring up are to be believed, but the other sites that I brought up are just a bunch of people that just don't count?

... and I'm the one that is letting opinions get into the way of trying to substitue a fact?

Ok.

[catzdrummer09]

Um....excuse me...but the only reason I mentioned that site was to use the concept art images that it shows...did you even click the link first. There is a difference in trying to pass off opinions on a website as truth and showing images for which the site can provide proof.

And I'm not the arrogant one...there are other places on this site where people have argued the same point that I am...I am not arguing that the ride is great and I think everyone else should...I'm arguing the exact opposite in fact. It is you that is arguing that the ride isn't great and are trying to back up your opinion with the...well...opinion of others!

[dakota2112]

The very high removal cost is probably the ONLY reason it is still there.

So far.

Much like my inground swimming pool.

[catzdrummer09]

^ I'll take it off your hands

[KIBeast]

^ Well considering that the general public does not compile data, and enthusiasts do gather data, what can be considered valid?

Or should we not listen to anyone, how they feel, or their reaction to a ride? That is just arrogant.

Or is it, nothing is valid because some people want to look through rose colored glasses, and, god forbid, a ride they like is not well recieved.

What I find intresting is: what is the difference between what you heard with those "marathoning" guests on SoB 4-5 times and the information of how others feel that I have provided?

How do you know a majority of the public loves Son of Beast? A majority of the public doesn't even go to Kings Island..of those who do, a majority doesn't ride the roller coasters...of those who do, I doubt a majority of that minority of a minority even rides Son of Beast, much less loves it...

Well though I never claimed to be a statistical genius I think it is made pretty obvious when all I've ever heard is cheering after the ride and watched people "marathon", if you will, the thing about 4-5 times.

And, what is the difference between myself using an enthusiast internet site as a source of information, and you discrediting them, but you can use and enthusiast site, and post information as if it's valid?

I have good/semi-confirming news. If anyone has been reading the new track? thread you have seen the new red B&M track photos and the dispute between whether it's for KI or for Sea World in Florida where they're building a flyer called manta. Well, screamscape has artwork posted (which they can back up) and the track ISN"T RED...IT"S BLUE!!!

here's the link http://www.screamscape.com/html/seaworld_florida.htm

So the sites you bring up are to be believed, but the other sites that I brought up are just a bunch of people that just don't count?

... and I'm the one that is letting opinions get into the way of trying to substitue a fact?

Ok.

What I am getting at is what you and catzdrummer09 have heard is only a small sampling of public opinion. You are probably both right in what you have heard. But neither of you (and this really could include myself as well) have enough public opinion to know what the MAJORITY of the GP think. The only way you could do that would be to ask nearly every rider the opinion of SOB for at least one season. Even then, you couldn't really say that is the public's opinion of the ride, but it would at least be a much larger sampling of what the GP really thinks of this coaster. Plus, I'd like to know what the GP thinks after the modifications and removal of the loop.

[Browntggrr]

Um....excuse me...but the only reason I mentioned that site was to use the concept art images that it shows...did you even click the link first. There is a difference in trying to pass off opinions on a website as truth and showing images for which the site can provide proof.

And I'm not the arrogant one...there are other places on this site where people have argued the same point that I am...I am not arguing that the ride is great and I think everyone else should...I'm arguing the exact opposite in fact. It is you that is arguing that the ride isn't great and are trying to back up your opinion with the...well...opinion of others!

So I can only provide enthusiast sites and it is considered the opinions of others, and 4-5 marathoning trains is not the same thing?

And the real funny thing about your link to ScreamScape, the information they provide are from the same enthisiasts that you believe don't have a valid opinion.

Just from a numbers standpoint, you heard less than 30 people's opinions duiring the marathon, where I provided sites that have thousands of members.

There is no doubt that some people love SoB, and they are entitled to their opinion. But how 30 marathoning people can be compared and have more of an opinion to thousands of people on the internet is still rather confusing.

[The Interpreter]

Especially since those in the general public who don't like Son of Beast will self de-select themselves from marathoning sessions by not riding again!

[catzdrummer09]

Ok, this fight is getting really petty so I'm going to say a few more things and I'll be done because this really has to stop. I was not trying to say that what I said mattered more than what yours did. What I was trying to say is that from what I've heard, which I hear nearly everytime I go, is that the GP seems to like SOB. That's the trend that I have noticed. However, like someone else said, those who don't like it tend to avoid it. But, I will have to point out, the ride usually seems to have one of the longest lines in the park. But there are too many variables involved to say. But, when looking at data, I would say that the park values the opinions of the GP rather than the enthusiasts simply because they most likely make up a minority of the park's visitors.

The only reason that I got frustrated with you is that I felt that you were trying to pass off the opinions of others as fact in order to support your claims. Maybe that's not what you were intending but that's how I took it. This whole thing has been a really dumb arguement and maybe we should just put our differences aside and get on with Top Gun like the topic suggested.

[Skywriter]

Not lets all take a break and watch this : )

[KIBeast]

Let me just say this...I don't think either of you have enough data to say definitively whether or not the GP likes SOB. What you both have said are true, but like I said here or in another thread, what you both have is a small sampling of data, nothing more, nothing less. And until someone comes along and gathers such data, both arguements are really based on incomplete data. You both presented strong arguements, but there just isn't enough there to say one way or the other.