The one thing I don't like about Diamondback

[BavarianBeatle]

In this day and age, if you meet the height requirements and are seated properly, you need no restraint at all (Unless there is an accident of some sort)! DB, like all present day coasters, is engineered and designed so that is not capable of generating forces that are sufficient to eject a rider from the train.

(Insert game show fail sound)

You clearly have not ridden DB or Magnum at CP in the front car of the train. You are literally thrown against the restraints, it seems like more than enough negative G forces to eject you from the ride.

I will respond to just a few of the flaws in your logic.

1) I said, "in this day and age." And yet, you attempt to support your position by using as an example Magnum, which was designed over 20 years ago by a company that no longer exists. With all of the technological advances in the last two decades, I don't believe Magnum is an appropriate example.

2) Lets assume an engineering company knew that one of their coasters was capable of ejecting a rider, but built it in that manner anyway. In the unlikely event that anyone was ejected, they would be sued literally out of existence, and the individuals who allowed a coaster to built knowing of the possibility of an ejection of a passenger would be subject to criminal prosecution and prison.

3) My sources are engineers with advanced degress who may or may not have "ridden DB or Magnum at CP in the front car of the train."

The point of me relaying this information is to reassure people that there is no need to be afraid of roller coasters. When you are on a coaster you are in one of the safest places in the park.

[beastrider97]

The point of me relaying this information is to reassure people that there is no need to be afraid of roller coasters. When you are on a coaster you are in one of the safest places in the park.

I have to agree. Coasters are very safe during our time.

[The Interpreter]

And not just criminal prosecution, either. Are we truly to believe that anyone would purposefully and knowingly design a roller coaster or its trains in such a manner so as to unnecessarily subject its riders to grave risk of injury or even death? As many a park general manager has said "My family comes here. I want this park to be as safe as possible." The same is true of rides manufacturers. It's not just that they don't want to go to jail, they don't want to be sued, but they also don't want anyone to be hurt on what is supposed to be a fun contraption. Just imagine living with yourself knowing that your creation caused someone to die. Living, breathing, human souls design, build, purchase, install and operate rides.

[skaterboy22101]

I think on DB that there is a back up safty feture. Like the anti-rollbacks, just an anti-restraint ups

And quite honestly, I would love to ride it with no restraints! You wouldn't fall out of your seat anyway. Just like you don't need any restraint on Vortex.

You wou;d be in more danger standing in the queue line then on the actual ride!

[The Interpreter]

There are still some rides with no restraints, though they are very rare in the USA. Leap the Dips comes to mind at Lakemont. Until recently, there was one at Indiana Beach, Tig'rr Coaster, which I believe now has restraints. Whizzer at Six Flags Great America didn't have any until recently. And Joyland's wooden coaster had PTC trains with fixed lapbars (like Kennywood's Jackrabbit, but withouth the horse bridle belt restraints).

[vortexfan]

1) I said, "in this day and age." And yet, you attempt to support your position by using as an example Magnum, which was designed over 20 years ago by a company that no longer exists. With all of the technological advances in the last two decades, I don't believe Magnum is an appropriate example.

2) Lets assume an engineering company knew that one of their coasters was capable of ejecting a rider, but built it in that manner anyway. In the unlikely event that anyone was ejected, they would be sued literally out of existence, and the individuals who allowed a coaster to built knowing of the possibility of an ejection of a passenger would be subject to criminal prosecution and prison.

3) My sources are engineers with advanced degress who may or may not have "ridden DB or Magnum at CP in the front car of the train."

Would you agree, then, that if Maverick had no restraints the riders would not fall out on the first drop? Or that if Hydra: The Revenge had no restraints riders would not fall out of the jojo roll? Or that if El Toro had no restraints, riders would still be firmly in their seats after each airtime hill? Or that if an S&S Screamin' Squirrel had no restraints, riders would still be sitting in their seats in the upside-down position?

[RWildman424]

In this day and age, if you meet the height requirements and are seated properly, you need no restraint at all (Unless there is an accident of some sort)! DB, like all present day coasters, is engineered and designed so that is not capable of generating forces that are sufficient to eject a rider from the train.

(Insert game show fail sound)

You clearly have not ridden DB or Magnum at CP in the front car of the train. You are literally thrown against the restraints, it seems like more than enough negative G forces to eject you from the ride.

I will respond to just a few of the flaws in your logic.

1) I said, "in this day and age." And yet, you attempt to support your position by using as an example Magnum, which was designed over 20 years ago by a company that no longer exists. With all of the technological advances in the last two decades, I don't believe Magnum is an appropriate example.

2) Lets assume an engineering company knew that one of their coasters was capable of ejecting a rider, but built it in that manner anyway. In the unlikely event that anyone was ejected, they would be sued literally out of existence, and the individuals who allowed a coaster to built knowing of the possibility of an ejection of a passenger would be subject to criminal prosecution and prison.

3) My sources are engineers with advanced degress who may or may not have "ridden DB or Magnum at CP in the front car of the train."

The point of me relaying this information is to reassure people that there is no need to be afraid of roller coasters. When you are on a coaster you are in one of the safest places in the park.

In this day and age, Intamin has built 2 coasters that I know of with past vertical drops. Simple physics will tell you that you would be ejected from your seat on those first drops alone. The second hill on Maverick would also eject you from your seat. I know this because every time I go over that hill, I am thrown into the shoulder harness with almost enough force to hurt. The reason they can design coasters like this is because of the fail safe harnesses that accompany them.

EDIT: Vortex beat me to the point. It was also better.

[teenageninja]

Magnum was a poor example, I apologize. However, clearly we have some valid points here. What about the Mohrer-Sohne X-Coasters, with the extended inversions. These rides have been designed with the restraints in mind. I understand your point about Ethics and Advanced Engineers stating they would not design a ride with this in mind, but clearly the Screaming Squirrel, Maverick, Fahrenheit, etc require restraints to keep the riders in. I am a pretty daring person and Diamondback is one of 3 rides in the park I wouldn't ride without restraints.

[BavarianBeatle]

Well, perhaps I was a bit overbroad in what I said... Obviously, Firehawk and flying coasters in general are rides that you would fall out of without restraints. As are rides that deliberately hang you upside down (for example, The Crypt) and Screamin' Squirrel rides. I should have said there is not sufficient "airtime" on today's rides to completely throw a person out of the train.

Honestly, I don't believe Maverick could do so either. It would eject a rider from the seat, but not completely out of the train. But this is something that can be debated forever and we will never know the true answer.

You are apparently more daring that I am. I can think of more than 3 rides at KI that I would not ride without restraints (Invertigo (hanging before you drop while facing forward), The Crypt, Firehawk, Delerium (I think the first and last few swings could dump you because it isn't going fast enough for the G forces to hold you in), and, of course, EXtreme Skyflyer....LOL.

[Kris_2009]

Yeah when I first got on I was like YESSSS!!! no seat belt, then after the second hill I was like WTF?!?!? NOO SEAT BELT. This talk of having no restraint is crazy and obviously you haven't rode in the back. You would get thrown out, trust me. I had more room then I should of on my lapbar and my butt came wayyyy out of that seat.

[Zorba]

You are apparently more daring that I am. I can think of more than 3 rides at KI that I would not ride without restraints (Invertigo (hanging before you drop while facing forward), The Crypt, Firehawk, Delerium (I think the first and last few swings could dump you because it isn't going fast enough for the G forces to hold you in)

There is no radially downward G force at the top of any swing on the Delerium. So you could fall out on the top of any of the swings.

[Zorba]

Just imagine living with yourself knowing that your creation caused someone to die.

That is something a huge number of engineers have to deal with. Something to think about before going to engineering school. Obviously engineers always design to avoid failure, but stuff happens.

EDIT: I don't mean that to sound cold hearted, but it is the truth.

[BavarianBeatle]

You are apparently more daring that I am. I can think of more than 3 rides at KI that I would not ride without restraints (Invertigo (hanging before you drop while facing forward), The Crypt, Firehawk, Delerium (I think the first and last few swings could dump you because it isn't going fast enough for the G forces to hold you in)

There is no radially downward G force at the top of any swing on the Delerium. So you could fall out on the top of any of the swings.

That I don't know. Because it spins you are experiencing multiple forces at the same time, the physics of which are well beyond my knowledge. I've never felt any sense of danger on Delerium, though. I enjoy it very much.

[VortexJunkie]

Forget seatbelts let's get a 5 point harness, helmets, knee pads, mouthpieces, and parachutes for every DB rider... B&M makes incredible coasters and they have a great safety record. If they say seatbelts aren't required then I don't need one. I got a lot of air time on DB and I don't want a redundant restraint to take that away.

[Jamesv7]

Yeah when I first got on I was like YESSSS!!! no seat belt, then after the second hill I was like WTF?!?!? NOO SEAT BELT. This talk of having no restraint is crazy and obviously you haven't rode in the back. You would get thrown out, trust me. I had more room then I should of on my lapbar and my butt came wayyyy out of that seat.

I 100% agree with you on that I was way out of my seat to and I liked it.

[Aaron]

I will respond to just a few of the flaws in your logic.

1) I said, "in this day and age." And yet, you attempt to support your position by using as an example Magnum, which was designed over 20 years ago by a company that no longer exists. With all of the technological advances in the last two decades, I don't believe Magnum is an appropriate example.

The physics and math behind all modern roller coasters is the same as it was over 20 years ago. The way the rides are designed, however, allows designers to be more precise in these calculations. The physics and fundamental equations don't change, however the technology making these calculations easier and faster, does.

Naturally with that power, it is possible to design a ride that would make it literally impossible for the rider to leave their seat without a lapbar, but anytime you experience airtime, you would without a doubt be nearly leaving, or leaving the train. (*cough* death on the Raven a few years ago?) There are some coasters where the negative Gs experience would not be enough to leave the train entirely, but there are PLENTY of modern coasters where the negative Gs experienced are more than enough to eject the rider. It all depends on the rider and the design intent.

This is all coming from someone who has their degree in Mechanical Engineering and about to begin their Masters in Mechanical Engineering and Vehicle Dynamics. I think I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT:

That is something a huge number of engineers have to deal with. Something to think about before going to engineering school. Obviously engineers always design to avoid failure, but stuff happens.

EDIT: I don't mean that to sound cold hearted, but it is the truth.

It's not cold hearted at all. I have lost track of the number of times professors emphasize to students in engineering that, "You will be designing and creating things that have the ability to kill." It's why the study of engineering is not an easy one and requires an enormous amount of dedication and passion.

[The Interpreter]

As for the death on Raven, it has not been clearly established that the rider's exit from the train was caused purely by ride forces. This factor must, sadly, also be taken into account when designing rides nowadays. Riders should not just be protected from ride forces, but also be unable to voluntarily or involuntarily exit the train while the ride is in motion. See also Flight Commander.

Terpy, choosing his words carefully

[dakota2112]

Everyone's talking about whether or not you really need a restraint on this ride or that ride... but you're all talking about the ride in NORMAL OPERATION. What about when something catastrophically goes wrong, like the train leaving the track or coming to an abrupt halt? Another automotive example: you don't NEED that seat belt in your car, until the accident happens...

I have nightmares about my son and myself riding Delirium, his restraint flies open and there's nothing I can do to stop it because I myself am strapped into the machine. But in waking hours when we actually ride it, I worry not - all because of that little safety belt. Call me crazy, but it's human nature

[Ki Man]

In the front seat..you'd fall forward and out of the seat on the first drop if there was no restraint.

There's no question that some coasters you could ride without a restraint..hell, Matterhorn at Disneyland uses a seatbelt...that's it! And mine was usually so loose that it really didn't make a difference that it was there. But Diamondback....no, you'd fall out of the train in MANY places along the track without a restraint. That's a fact.

[dare-to-fly]

All of these posts are making me appreciate Tig'rr at Indiana Beach. For those who don't know, it has absolutely no restraints whatsoever!

Flyer, who likes such.

[CarrieR]

I had the fortune of riding both Leap the Dips and Tigg'r last summer; at that time, neither had restraints. It's possible T got them since then, but I don't believe it has.

I had no qualms about riding LTD without restraints... concerns the coaster was going to collapse, yes... that I was going to fall out of the car, no. (Although it DID have a bit of airtime at points!) Tigg'r, on the other hand, gave me a bit of pause on the first drop... when you realized you were STANDING, in the car, restraint-less. LOL. (The angle at which I had to sit/lean back in order to put feet on the footholds and back against the back of the seat plus the angle of the drop led to essentially standing up in the car.) I also rode Kennywood's JackRabbit pre-current belts... the double-dip on that was probably the only time I've been TRULY scared of death on a coaster.

That said, none of these coasters is Diamondback. You couldn't PAY me enough to ride it without restraints. AE or Racer, sure, no problem... although it's not a BAD idea to have a restraint, I wouldn't think 'imminent death' if I didn't have one.

Think about a ride like Superman at Six Flags NE -- if the restraint is not right, you will fall out and die. The restraint was not properly restraining the passenger... ergo he fell. D'back (which I have not yet ridden) seems to be compared to MF, which is very similar to S:ROS. They're not the same rides, no, but I think the point remains valid that they're similar enough in their design and forces to draw a comparison. So riding DB without restraints... probably not the best plan. To me, any time you're being actively restrained by the restraint -- when your body weight is against it, being held in -- then that restraint is absolutely necessary to avoid ejection from the coaster.

So, BB, although I have a lot of respect for you as a poster around here, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

[The Interpreter]

Terpy, choosing his words very carefully (again):

There is no evidence indicating that the rider who was ejected from Superman: Ride of Steel at Darien Lake in New York was not attempting to stand up...

Again, a major purpose of modern day restraint systems is to also restrain those who cannot or will not conform their riding conduct to the expectations of a reasonably prudent rider. Sad to say.

[Aaron]

Terpy, choosing his words very carefully (again):

There is no evidence indicating that the rider who was ejected from Superman: Ride of Steel at Darien Lake in New York was not attempting to stand up...

Again, a major purpose of modern day restraint systems is to also restrain those who cannot or will not conform their riding conduct to the expectations of a reasonably prudent rider. Sad to say.

Indeed. One of the unique features on Diamondback's trains is the raised seating. While this may seem that it's solely to enhance the ride experience and feeling of freedom, it's actually a safety feature designed to thwart potential misbehaving riders. By having the their feet dangling, riders no longer have any leverage for their legs in the event they decided to try to 'free' themselves from the restraint.

[The Interpreter]

Not to mention the riders are tilted slightly back...a safety feature first seen on Nitro.

Kumba type trains will not be seen again from B and M.

[LongliveKingsCobra]

Kumba Style?

May I ask what is this style?

and therfore would like an answer....bwahahah Terpy, you can't just say "Yes"... I have won!

[The Interpreter]

Kumba trains have you sitting with your thighs horizontally...they also have over the shoulder restraints, though...as do the floorless coasters, but the seats on those also tilt slightly backwards nowadays...

[teenageninja]

Aaron,

Thanks for the hook up again, I appreciate you saving me butt as usual!

Someone could always get an accelerometer app on their touch/iphone and run it prior to sitting in the ride. I'm sure that would put some doubt into the equation.

[LongliveKingsCobra]

Thanks Terpy!

I thought they were like that, Shoulder Restraints(sp?) on DB, might as well take out one of the hills.

[The Interpreter]

Not exactly the most comfortable trains in the world:

http://www.rcdb.com/ig94.htm?picture=9

[HandsUp]

Part of the thrill is feeling unsafe when you are in fact safe. I trust the engineers, and part of the engineering is to manufacture the feeling that you're 'hanging out there'. One reason why I love TTD and MF-no shoulder bars. I imagine that DB feels somewhat the same with clamshells and dangling feet (I'll know for sure on Sunday!).