Backlot Stunt Coaster Trains Being Stripped of Their Theming

[The Interpreter]

The disturbing thing to me at Carowinds, pizza-wise, on Friday was not that they now charge $4.49 a slice for pizza (they do). It was that the slices are less than half the size they used to be, and most had been sitting under the heat lamps for so long that the cheese had first melted, then burned...and oozed all over the plate. I asked a worker, nicely, if they would soon be making more. Her reply? "Not til that's gone, honey." At least she was honest.

What does this have to do with theming? Per cap spending helps pay for capex. When it goes down, unless admissions dramatically increase, so does capital spending...Lower food sales eventually means fewer flat rides and coasters...which means fewer admissions which means less revenue....Wait...both admissions and per caps are down at Cedar Fair...markedly so...It's not just the economy, in my opinion....it's high in park pricing and low quality and less than cheerful service.

[Tchu]

There are a couple of things that need to be said here.

First of all, just because the trains at Kings Dominion on opening weekend were very plain and 'unfinished' looking, doesn't mean the same will be the case at Kings Island come April 17th. We know there will be changes, but we don't know exactly what. It's possible the trains at KD will be updated. It was opening weekend... an early opening weekend compared to many other seasonal parks. My understanding is that much of Kings Dominion was looking and feeling a bit unfinished this weekend.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, while much can be debated about whether or not the agreement with BMW should have been renewed, it needs to be pointed out that all the talk and complaints of Cedar Fair unnecessarily removing headlight decals, doors, plates etc may very well be entirely inaccurate.

The Mini Cooper has a distinct look, and, given said distinct look/body design, if Kings Island were to leave headlight decals and license plates and little working doors, BMW could be well within their legal rights to seek atcion against Cedar Fair. It's not just the Mini Cooper logo that falls under legal protection. If the sum of the product is clearly meant to represent a Mini Cooper without the consent of BMW, Cedar Fair could face legal action.

The removal of the doors and headlight decals may have been 100% necessary in order to distance the product enough to satisfy legal standards.

At that point, as much as people may or may not like it, the park would have two options. Either remove as much as possible in the form of themed accessories to prevent the trains from looking like their original intention, or order entirely new trains in the more general or generic "car" shape so that they may be decorated with decals. The second option would be a very costly choice to make for a ride that isn't considered one of the park's premier attractions.

[The Interpreter]

Not to mention that even if the park were on sound legal ground not removing windshields, headlights, doors and mirrors, the costs of defending a legal action, which BMW has proven it is willing and able to file (See Freestyle Music Park, for example) could perhaps be avoided by being abundantly cautious. Litigation is time consuming, costly and frustrating. It also diverts one from matters at hand, like selling out to Apollo, defending legal actions associated therewith, etc., not to mention operating, maintaining and improving amusement attractions (and trying to figure out what the thunder Q is up to).

[bkroz]

I agree with much of what you said, but must fall back on a few things:

The idea of Kings Dominion working further on the trains as the summer progresses is nearly out of the question. The trains are on the track. Do you think they will carefully hop from one side of the station to the other applying decals? It would seem to me, admittedly as a layman in this department, that any cosmetic changes would occur off the track, in the maintenance shop. I could be dead wrong.

Another thing is, you are correct that the MINI is distinct - the circular mirrors, the circular headlights, and the characteristic "stripes" on the hood certainly had to be removed. But license plates? Keep in mind, these are licensed plates that were just recently updated to include the new Kings Island logo. I say again that, if MINI owns the rights to license plates, I have some serious fees to pay. I don't imagine any court would accept that Kings Island is, as BMW claimed with Freestyle, unfairly benefitting from a false endorsement, because a car-themed roller coaster has license plates.

I understand that the doors were likely a maintenance issue at least once, and when they train goes under for a change, you say "Well, let's just get rid of the doors while we're doing this." But license plates are certainly not the property of BMW, and headlights can easily be replaced with something shaped differently. They literally just painted over the entire carriage, and as was said, it looks like a $.05 toy from a drug store. Plus, making the trains all-red, all-white, and all-blue? Why?! At this point, the ride is so distanced from its Italian Job identity that it would take a lot of talk to convince a first time visitor that the ride ever had anything to do with the film. Thus, I fear this may be yet another example of Cedar Fair changing something just because they can.

If you ask me, we can make excuses til the cows come home, and say they were just being "overly cautious," but I've started to learn that the heads of Cedar Fair do not think in terms of "Well if we save money here, we can build better rides later." They think in terms of "Let's not spend any money, period. No water, no fire, no music, no effects, no fog, no BMWs. No one will notice."

Dear Mr. Kinzel,

We noticed.

[Diamondback96]

Except, the Intimidator licensing agreements are through Dale Earnhardt Inc. and not NASCAR. Additionally, both Richmond and Charlotte are home to Sprint Cup races. So the appeal of NASCAR in those cities is slightly higher than what it is in the Cincinnati area. I wouldn`t look for them to retheme Backlot at Kings Island anytime soon.

KI is closer to where the appeal is (Indianapolis) than CP, and CP has had NASCAR drivers there before.

[The Interpreter]

...not to mention Top Thrill Dragster....

[Creed Bratton]

I agree with much of what you said, but must fall back on a few things:

The idea of Kings Dominion working further on the trains as the summer progresses is nearly out of the question. The trains are on the track. Do you think they will carefully hop from one side of the station to the other applying decals? It would seem to me, admittedly as a layman in this department, that any cosmetic changes would occur off the track, in the maintenance shop. I could be dead wrong.

Another thing is, you are correct that the MINI is distinct - the circular mirrors, the circular headlights, and the characteristic "stripes" on the hood certainly had to be removed. But license plates? Keep in mind, these are licensed plates that were just recently updated to include the new Kings Island logo. I say again that, if MINI owns the rights to license plates, I have some serious fees to pay. I don't imagine any court would accept that Kings Island is, as BMW claimed with Freestyle, unfairly benefitting from a false endorsement, because a car-themed roller coaster has license plates.

I understand that the doors were likely a maintenance issue at least once, and when they train goes under for a change, you say "Well, let's just get rid of the doors while we're doing this." But license plates are certainly not the property of BMW, and headlights can easily be replaced with something shaped differently. They literally just painted over the entire carriage, and as was said, it looks like a $.05 toy from a drug store. Plus, making the trains all-red, all-white, and all-blue? Why?! At this point, the ride is so distanced from its Italian Job identity that it would take a lot of talk to convince a first time visitor that the ride ever had anything to do with the film. Thus, I fear this may be yet another example of Cedar Fair changing something just because they can.

If you ask me, we can make excuses til the cows come home, and say they were just being "overly cautious," but I've started to learn that the heads of Cedar Fair do not think in terms of "Well if we save money here, we can build better rides later." They think in terms of "Let's not spend any money, period. No water, no fire, no music, no effects, no fog, no BMWs. No one will notice."

Dear Mr. Kinzel,

We noticed.

Just give it up! There are times when the parks will work on ride vehicles throughout the season. Why do they have maintenance departments throughout the year. You do not even know 100% sure what the changes to BLSC will be, so why are you freaking out about it. If it happens it happens. We cannot do anything to change it. You are right, if these things were to happen, it would be so distanced from Italian Job. That's the point. Backlot Stunt Coaster does not equal Italian Job Stunt Track.

With your argument about spending money.... would you prefer them continually spending money on contracts that are unnecessary, having effects that are breaking down more often than not, etc. that they keep spending unnecessary money and go even further into debt? Yeah, let's do that! Send the company down the drains!!!

I say if you absolutely are appalled (like you sound you are) about a possibility of roller coaster trains being modified that you just don't even know how someone could even support it or ride the ride because it takes down the overall experience, don't ride it. Find a new experience you like!

[bkroz]

With your argument about spending money.... would you prefer them continually spending money on contracts that are unnecessary, having effects that are breaking down more often than not, etc. that they keep spending unnecessary money and go even further into debt? Yeah, let's do that! Send the company down the drains!!!

Let's see, spending money on contracts that are unnecessary, but add the overall experience? Effects that require maintenence, but payoff when maintained correctly? Spending money on things that aren't necessarily essential to the ride, but still intricate and fun? I believe that's exactly what Paramount did, and as I recall, the Paramount Parks were always doing fine, and had attendance matching Cedar Fair's, but while owning two less parks.

They managed to add small to medium sized additions to all of their parks nearly every single year that had nice effects that, even on their worst days, were miles beyond anything that Cedar Point has ever even dreamed of having. Now we get one huge addition, then nothing for four years. Diamondback is worth the wait, yes, but now what? For the next four years all of the remaining contracts in the park will expire. We'll have piles and piles of generic rides with no theme and no details. Then we'll get a big addition and we'll just all get over it? I don't think so.

Consider that the Paramount Parks, even in the deflated states, are still the highlights of the entire Cedar Fair chain. Because the sad, tiny little details that are desperately clinging to Backlot Stunt Coaster are still lightyears beyond anything Cedar Point has to offer. But I ask, once the flames stop working, do you think they'll be replaced? Every time a lightbulb burns out in The Crypt, it's just one less light. It won't be replaced. Every effect, every detail, will disappear one by one till we're nothing more than a smaller, "lamer" Cedar Point. That's where we're headed. It really is.

Kings Island is an amusement park now. It's sad. But it is.

[RaptorGuy]

I think the trains on Backlot Stunt Coaster are downright ugly! If I had my way, that coaster would be removed

and sent to Michigan's Adventure. It's a low capacity coaster, in a high capacity park. It never should have been

built to begin with at Kings Island. They took out 2 good flat rides for that, and in Kings Island fashion, all of

the themeing stopped working after the first week the ride was in operation. Some of it NEVER worked. It was a poor waste of space.

[Creed Bratton]

We're not owned by Paramount anymore. Cedar Fair took over and in doing so, the acquired parks and were not able to break even. Two different companies dude. If you rally enough people to say, hey, a few light bulbs in the Crypt have burnt out, please change them, the park will do so. But complaining about it on a Forum that the park has no control over does nothing.

I think you are completely wrong in saying that we're on track to become a lamer Cedar Point. I also think that your view on KI after it has been acquired by Cedar Fair is a bit biased. Yes, I would say that Kings Island is an amusement park now. But what's the point of going to Kings Island?????? Is it to look at all the pretty theming and notice that the music represents so much. NO. The point of going to Kings Island is to have fun. Ride rides. Hang out with friends. Do things you don't do daily. It's not sad at all.

Again I say if you don't like it, why even bother if you aren't actually going to go to the park and talk to Guest Services rather than complaining on KIC?

[The Interpreter]

Where on earth did you get the idea the acquired parks are not profitable?

Sigh.

[bkroz]

But what's the point of going to Kings Island?????? Is it to look at all the pretty theming and notice that the music represents so much. NO. The point of going to Kings Island is to have fun. Ride rides. Hang out with friends. Do things you don't do daily. It's not sad at all.

Again I say if you don't like it, why even bother if you aren't actually going to go to the park and talk to Guest Services rather than complaining on KIC?

For some people, the music, the flames, the water, the fog, all add to the fun. Trust me on that. Nothing starts my day off better than the grand music on International Street - without it, the park feels different. Many can attest to this. Additionally, riding Backlot Stunt Coaster is more fun with music and flames and water... And The Crypt is more fun with music and fog and lasers. Denying that would be silly.

And trust me on this: I have visited guest services, and according to the wonderful folks who work there, I'm not alone: "Change things back to the way they used to be." That's what I was told is the main thing that they hear at Guest Relations. Take that for what it's worth.

[The Interpreter]

And wait for 040810.

No one knows what happens next.

These could even soon be the "good old days."

Stranger things have happened.

Or the dark before the dawn.

Which?

That's the Q.

[Creed Bratton]

But what's the point of going to Kings Island?????? Is it to look at all the pretty theming and notice that the music represents so much. NO. The point of going to Kings Island is to have fun. Ride rides. Hang out with friends. Do things you don't do daily. It's not sad at all.

Again I say if you don't like it, why even bother if you aren't actually going to go to the park and talk to Guest Services rather than complaining on KIC?

For some people, the music, the flames, the water, the fog, all add to the fun. Trust me on that.

And trust me on this: I have visited guest services, and according to the wonderful folks who work there, I'm not alone: "Change things back to the way they used to be." That's what I was told is the main thing that they hear at Guest Relations. Take that for what it's worth.

I understand that for some people all of that add to the fun. Hey I like it but that doesn't mean when it goes away I go berserk. I'm don't visit Kings Island just for that factor. Mainly I go to ride rides, as I know a ton of people do.

I understand that people go to guest services and say change things back to the way they used to be, but hey we're no longer owned by Paramount or Taft. That's like saying "oh 1996 was such a great year let's go back and visit." That's just not possible. Things have been changed for a reason and there's nothing we can do about the changes in the past. I'm sorry to say that, because I'd like to change things but I just can't.

[bkroz]

Things have been changed for a reason and there's nothing we can do about the changes in the past. I'm sorry to say that, because I'd like to change things but I just can't.

^

You can't. They can. They don't. Maybe someone will.

It is impossible to go back to 1996. It is not impossible to re-theme The Crypt, to re-start the effects on Adventure Express or Backlot, or to play the correct music on International Street. Is it difficult? Maybe... It is possible? Yes.

[Creed Bratton]

You're not looking at the big picture. In the financial state of the company that owns the park, big changes are not going to happen, give or take the changes that have to be made due to contracts, i.e. PS.

You're right, doing all of those things would be difficult....and they all cost money.

[HTCO]

So Kings Island can't even put like a white stripe on the side of all the cars or something? They look like Hot Wheels without the stickers...

[The Interpreter]

You're not looking at the big picture. In the financial state of the company that owns the park, big changes are not going to happen, give or take the changes that have to be made due to contracts, i.e. PS.

You're right, doing all of those things would be difficult....and they all cost money.

That which is done is done because someone wanted it done in that particular way. Under Cedar Fair, that is almost always either Richard Kinzel or someone who reports directly to him. Unless and until that man is no longer in control of Cedar Fair, do not expect anything much different. It won't be happening. As a limited partnership, Cedar Fair's unit holders have virtually no voice in day to day operations. But now, Kinzel and his cronies cannot sell out (and retain an ownership interest while forcing others to sell) and collect big bucks without consent of the holders of 2/3 of the units. That doesn't seem likely, especially with the large institutional investors, Q and the Knott family all having announced they will be voting no.

Then there is the matter of the debt covenants...

Big changes ARE coming. And soon.

[bkroz]

You're not looking at the big picture. In the financial state of the company that owns the park, big changes are not going to happen, give or take the changes that have to be made due to contracts, i.e. PS.

You're right, doing all of those things would be difficult....and they all cost money.

If there comes a time when a companies finances require they only run what is "essential" on a ride (ex. the breaks, the chain...) and they couldn't run extras even if they wanted to (flames, water, music), then perhaps, just perhaps, they should not own said ride, or the park in which it resides, anymore. If Cedar Fair is going to "die," it is not fair for them to drag us down with them.

[The Interpreter]

It's a business. What is "fair" for customers has very little to do with anything.

That's the way it is.

Customers can best voice their concerns by voting with their nickels....

[shark6495]

You're not looking at the big picture. In the financial state of the company that owns the park, big changes are not going to happen, give or take the changes that have to be made due to contracts, i.e. PS.

You're right, doing all of those things would be difficult....and they all cost money.

If there comes a time when a companies finances require they only run what is "essential" on a ride (ex. the breaks, the chain...) and they couldn't run extras even if they wanted to (flames, water, music), then perhaps, just perhaps, they should not own said ride, or the park in which it resides, anymore. If Cedar Fair is going to "die," it is not fair for them to drag us down with them.

You are right but no one ever does it like that. Why do people push their fuel (in the car) to the last drop? or even let said vehicle to stay on the road even if it is dangerous? because they think it will be alright. A company does cost cutting because they think it will work. just my 2.5 cents

[Creed Bratton]

What Terpy said is correct, what is done is done.

Not to mention, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON WITH BLSC AT KI! There has been no press made about any changes made. There are 2 things you're going off of, a 5@5 answer that said that there is going to be A change, the 2nd thing you're going off of is what KD did. We're not KD. KD is our sister park, things are not 100% identical.

Then what is the escape if Cedar Fair dies?

Chill.

[The Interpreter]

Some things have most certainly not been cut. Take Mr. Kinzel's salary and bonuses, for example.

Distributions to unit holders? Those have been cut.

Incentives to employees? Ditto.

Investments in the parks? Ditto.

[HTCO]

What Terpy said is correct, what is done is done.

Not to mention, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON WITH BLSC AT KI! There has been no press made about any changes made. There are 2 things you're going off of, a 5@5 answer that said that there is going to be A change, the 2nd thing you're going off of is what KD did. We're not KD. KD is our sister park, things are not 100% identical.

Then what is the escape if Cedar Fair dies?

Chill.

You are the one that needs to take a chill pill sir...

[Creed Bratton]

Terpy, I'm not going to comment on that except I understand where you are coming from.

[Creed Bratton]

What Terpy said is correct, what is done is done.

Not to mention, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON WITH BLSC AT KI! There has been no press made about any changes made. There are 2 things you're going off of, a 5@5 answer that said that there is going to be A change, the 2nd thing you're going off of is what KD did. We're not KD. KD is our sister park, things are not 100% identical.

Then what is the escape if Cedar Fair dies?

Chill.

You are the one that needs to take a chill pill sir...

I'm not making something out of nothing and making claims that something is going to happen when no one really knows except park employees and the higher ups. Just saying.

[The Interpreter]

This is a very frightening time for many park employees, especially for middle management and above. Absolutely no one knows exactly what is going to happen in the next few weeks. It could even be that Q will cut a deal of some sort with Apollo and together they will take over the company. IF that were to happen, they'd doubtless at first say there will be no major changes. And there won't be. For a few days, weeks or even months. And then....

Even then, so many retail investors own units, it is not a given such a deal could gain approval.

[HTCO]

What Terpy said is correct, what is done is done.

Not to mention, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EVEN GOING ON WITH BLSC AT KI! There has been no press made about any changes made. There are 2 things you're going off of, a 5@5 answer that said that there is going to be A change, the 2nd thing you're going off of is what KD did. We're not KD. KD is our sister park, things are not 100% identical.

Then what is the escape if Cedar Fair dies?

Chill.

You are the one that needs to take a chill pill sir...

I'm not making something out of nothing and making claims that something is going to happen when no one really knows except park employees and the higher ups. Just saying.

First I never said ANYTHING about the cars at Kings Island in Mason, Ohio. Or as some would say Kings Mills, Ohio. Second, why am I being attacked for nothing here? I found your response in a rude tone, and I called you out on it. I really do not care.

HTCO is choosing his words carefully...

[Creed Bratton]

HTCO, that wasn't directed toward you.

With all of this, I've said my point of view. I'm out of this debate. Any further things directed toward me should be sent in a PM.

[thunderbeast1968]

I'm not sure "movie themeing is good idea. Let me explain, Top Gun for example is a old movie, and most young people have not even heard of it. I know, its not Top Gun anymore but....

The Superman brand or any other comic book hero is a lasting icon, But Top Gun? sorry.. or Italian Job

Harry Potter, may be the same in twenty years, no one cares anymore. The themeing will be changed in 4-5 years anyway.

By the way, no money to spend on BMW license fees, alot of money was spent to change Nickelodeon Universe to Planet Snoopy. Nick themeing was not old at all...

These are my (narrowminded opinions anyway) please don't hate on me ok? Thanks!!!!!!