Documentary concerning Seaworld ("Blackfish")

[Tanna]

The documentary's main point waffles. I don't think it intends its core message to be that SeaWorld is evil because, in fact, SeaWorld's habitats and care for its menagerie of creatures certainly meets and often exceeds standards set by the AZA. That's why they didn't touch on the rest of the animals, really.

What they're attempting to convey, it seems, is that killer whales in particular should not be held captive because they're too intelligent and too emotionally self-and-group aware to lead fulfilling lives in a false environment the way a seal or an otter can. Here and there they touch on forcing animals to perform, but again only really in the context of killer whales. It seems that their intent is not to poopoo on SeaWorld, but to poopoo on any place that holds these intelligent whales captive... SeaWorld just so happens to be the face of it.

So it's a muddled message that screams "anti-SeaWorld" when I don't think that's constructive or even what they really intended.

That helps. I didn't understand why they avoided speaking of the other animals. Plus, it's off message to talk about a seal with a new flipper.

Edited to add:

Sheikra,

Are those fish snacks in coney containers to give to the dolphins?

[upstop]

One thing I noticed in the Ecorazzi article.....Heart canceled their concert with 2000 petition signatures. That is a drop in the bucket of potential concert goers....Hmmmm is there a petition to petition Heart for their lack of concern for their fans? Let's start one.

Unfortunately, when these rubes start showing their true politics, I sign off on them....in fact I think I signed off on Heart back in the late 80's. Truthfully they can hang with the Dixie Chicks as far as I'm concerned.

[shark6495]

eh, I feel that every one should stand for something. Some people should choose their "hills to die on" a bit more judiciously, but at leas they stand for something and can say they do it.

As for musicians that do it, I think it can help them cross over from bubble gum pop to music with a meaning.

If you want to feel bad about the flow of current musicians moving into politics... here is a top 50 of current political musicians/artists...

http://static.echonest.com/Top50PoliticalArtists/

(number 1 is Nicki Minaj, while Bob Dylan doesnt crack the top 25, so take that into consideration)

Top 10 political songs of 2013

http://www.msnbc.com/the-cycle/top-10-political-songs-2013

Beyonce and Lil Wayne?

Top 20 of all time?

http://www.newstatesman.com/music/2010/03/top-20-political-songs

Or my personal favorite, due to my time at Kent State and getting to visit the spots where the 4 died and seeing the memorial in person...

Sorry for high-jacking the thread... but if Heart or Willie Nelson can write an anti Killer Whale Captivity song that is as good as OHIO then I will give credit where credit is due...

[sheikra_rocks]

I was there about a month after the incident with Dawn. Tilikum was in the show, and there is NO WAY that whale has missed a feeding.

As far as I am aware Tillikum did not perform (I am assuming you are talking about Believe right?) in the show until well after the summer season had already ended following his attack on Dawn (actually it was more closer to a year later, around the time of the announcement that Believe was gonna be replaced). If you indeed saw him it wasn't intentional on SeaWorld's part because they did everything they could to shelter him in the back pools since the attack was still fresh in people's minds, Tillikum would have had to sneak to the show on his own. Sure you didn't mistaken one of the adult females for him?

SO they lied to me when they claimed their biggest whale was getting ready to splash me? I can also tell the difference between a male and female orca.

[sheikra_rocks]

Being present with a sign, ANY sign, is NOT doing anything BUT aiding and abetting the protesters:

* Many cannot or will not read the signs.

* Rules and laws typically prohibit the act of carrying signs, chanting, congregating for disruptive purposes, etc. The content of the signs is typically of little or no relevancy in determining whether the rule, regulation or law has been violated. Carrying and displaying an irrelevant sign at a protest is typically deemed as participating in that protest--by the owner, by visitors, by law enforcement, by prosecutors, judges and juries.

* Many will assume, incorrectly, that they know what they say.

* Many will not want to go anywhere near where there is a crowd with signs. Some will leave before entering the park, depriving it of income. Some will NEVER return.

* You are contributing toward potential disorder and violence...on or near park property. You could even be risking your liberty, your arrest record, your health or your life. What other protesters may do is unpredictable, and they certainly are not going to be happy you are belittling them and what they see as a worthy cause worth fighting for.

* Ironically and sadly, your presence legitimizes their protest, giving it credibility and perhaps the small edge that the fight is worth going on. These people want attention. Your presence helps to cause publicity, concern, disorder and confusion, all contributing to their goals: make SeaWorld an unpredictable, uncomfortable place and make people not want to be or go there.

* Typically, you are breaking park rules.

* If protesters are arrested, injured, or, heaven forfend, killed, you likely will be as well. Law enforcement and even park fans engaging in self help typically have little to no inclination or time to make fine distinctions as to intent when engaging in remedial, law enforcement or palliative measures.

Joining protesters, but with irrelevant signs, is typically a very bad idea. Very bad, indeed.

Not to mention that were a bird or a flock of birds flying overhead determined to dive bomb the protesters on a disposal run, you'd be also within their sights!

*Um it was a joke.

*Don't speak down to me.

*That is all.

[sheikra_rocks]

Sheikra,

Are those fish snacks in coney containers to give to the dolphins?

Basically.

I have fed the dolphins several times. They specifically tell you not to lift the carton above the ledge.

[PREMiERdrum]

I think it's a discussion worth having, but I'd be far more concerned at what's happened to Shouka (a former Ohio gal!) out at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom before I'd be bludgeoning Sea World.

[The Interpreter]

I think it's a discussion worth having, but I'd be far more concerned at what's happened to Shouka (a former Ohio gal!) out at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom before I'd be bludgeoning Sea World.

Uh...Shouka is at SeaWorld.

San Diego.

Has been for quite some time.

New Six Flags management did that among its first....moves.

[faeriewench]

SO they lied to me when they claimed their biggest whale was getting ready to splash me? I can also tell the difference between a male and female orca.

They've done it before. It was more common in the AB days tho.

I think it's a discussion worth having, but I'd be far more concerned at what's happened to Shouka (a former Ohio gal!) out at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom before I'd be bludgeoning Sea World.

What Terpy said, she is happily at San Diego. Much better orca now than she was when she lived with Six Flags. I got tons of pictures of her with her new friends

[PREMiERdrum]

SO they lied to me when they claimed their biggest whale was getting ready to splash me? I can also tell the difference between a male and female orca.

They've done it before. It was more common in the AB days tho.

I think it's a discussion worth having, but I'd be far more concerned at what's happened to Shouka (a former Ohio gal!) out at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom before I'd be bludgeoning Sea World.

What Terpy said, she is happily at San Diego. Much better orca now than she was when she lived with Six Flags. I got tons of pictures of her with her new friends

I think it's a discussion worth having, but I'd be far more concerned at what's happened to Shouka (a former Ohio gal!) out at Six Flags Discovery Kingdom before I'd be bludgeoning Sea World.

Uh...Shouka is at SeaWorld.

San Diego.

Has been for quite some time.

New Six Flags management did that among its first....moves.

Holy smokes, this happened in August of last year??? Where have I been?

Glad to see she's happy. The underhanded way they got her here to Six Flags Worlds of Adventure is really sad.

[faeriewench]

Yeah, she been there for a bit over a year. Her spunk probably impressed the matriarch (when other pod members tried to dominate her she nipped right back) because she is well liked by the entire pod. In shows, she flies! I do mean fly, it is funny to watch the other females try to jump higher than Shouka, you can almost see the competitiveness there. All the bad habits she displayed at Six Flags (example: regurgitating constantly) she no longer does. Though personality wise, she is rather unique if at times a bit puzzling.

[PREMiERdrum]

Yeah, she been there for a bit over a year. Her spunk probably impressed the matriarch (when other pod members tried to dominate her she nipped right back) because she is well liked by the entire pod. In shows, she flies! I do mean fly, it is funny to watch the other females try to jump higher than Shouka, you can almost see the competitiveness there. All the bad habits she displayed at Six Flags (example: regurgitating constantly) she no longer does. Though personality wise, she is rather unique if at times a bit puzzling.

I have a buddy who was one of her trainers at SFWoA, and he said her behaviors there were obvious to him before she was moved, but brass didn't want to hear of it. Glad to hear she's doing better.

[faeriewench]

She do the regurgitating a lot in SFWoA? Just curious. I know cetaceans don't have a gag reflex so it really doesn't hurt them but it is unneeded habit and I'm glad SW got her to break it. The SW orcas, particularly at San Diego, do it too but it is with fish when they want to screw with the birds, but other than that she no longer does it just to do it. lol...

SW has done some good for orcas that don't belong to them as well if anyone is curious. Kshamenk, the lone male orca at Mundo Marino in Argentina WAS a real agitated orca that eventually started getting rough with his trainers and trying to...uh..knock up his bottlenose dolphin companions (primarily Floppy...poor doll). SW taught his trainers how to better care for him and giving him more mental stimulation, presently he is a much more mellow orca and Floppy is a happier dolphin. (though I wish his living condition would improve as well) This info comes from someone that gets to observe Kshamenk often.

[PREMiERdrum]

She do the regurgitating a lot in SFWoA? Just curious.

He never mentioned that, but in her last 6 months or so there she had developed a nasty habit of hitting and rubbing her nose against the tank in the rearmost pool (opposite the show pool). Far too often in those last few months was she kept in one of the tiny side pools between shows.

[faeriewench]

One thing I noticed is the random places she'll just sit either to observe or sleep. Like for instance....parks herself tail first up against the gates. The other orcas in the pool with her at the time trying to get around her so they can get to the gate to see what the other pod mates elsewhere were up to was rather interesting as she wouldn't budge at all. I love how ever since her arrival Corky, the second oldest captive orca, has been vocalizing a lot more. Listening to her calls, now its easy to see where the orca vocals used in the Free Willy movies actually came from (they were not really Keiko's calls at all). Though that scene in the movie drives me nuts cause they make it sound like the noises come from their mouths when its actually the blowhole, oh well, that's Hollywood.

[Tanna]

Here's two odd questions:

Some ex trainers type that they had been let go for either kissing the whales' tongues or interactions otherwise to the tongues.

From what I'm seeing in videos, this is part of positive reinforcement, so how would a trainer be fired over this?

Secondly, i was told by the breeder I bought my dog from that my Scottish Terrier will always be four years old development wise; is there information out there as the "age" of an orca's development?

To me, even at their worst, these whales are acting no different than a houseful of Irish American teenagers with their mom off at work.

[The Interpreter]

Is it positive reinforcement to kiss an Irish American teenager's tongue?

Terp, who likes to ask questions, and couldn't hold his tongue!

[faeriewench]

Here's two odd questions:

Some ex trainers type that they had been let go for either kissing the whales' tongues or interactions otherwise to the tongues.

From what I'm seeing in videos, this is part of positive reinforcement, so how would a trainer be fired over this?

It is positive reinforcement in orcas (kissing and/or rubbing the tongues). As well as hugs and rub downs (orcas are very itchy animals so they love good rub downs).

[LoraX]

Is it positive reinforcement to kiss an Irish American teenager's tongue?

Terp, who likes to ask questions, and couldn't hold his tongue!

As long as we don't have to kiss you on your tongue or give you a good rub down it's all good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[faeriewench]

Secondly, i was told by the breeder I bought my dog from that my Scottish Terrier will always be four years old development wise; is there information out there as the "age" of an orca's development?

To me, even at their worst, these whales are acting no different than a houseful of Irish American teenagers with their mom off at work.

Orcas and bottlenose dolphins are like giant toddlers. Curious about anything and everything...and always must touch. Which is kind of a reason why you don't see SW put kelp and other things in the pools to simulate a natural ocean environment. Sand has back washed into the pools at San Diego before on accident, and they had a curious orca that ingested huge quantities of said sand which tore up his stomach. Since they don't have hands or paws to explore their environment with they gotta use their mouth. Other aquariums use kelp and have had issues with dolphins eating them, some have gotten pretty sick. San Diego used huge rocks too big for them to eat, but had to be removed for the new safety measures being implemented. Orcas have a habit of eating anything in sight, compared to bottlenose dolphins that is, even necropsies on dead orcas that washed ashore in the wild show they eat a lot of rocks. Very curious animals

Meant to type this last night but it was so late when I got home from work couldn't stay up. XP

[Tanna]

Thanks. I was reading of them raking each other and chasing each other in displays of dominance, and thought to myself, "Heck, what Irish Catholic kid hasn't done that to their siblings?"

They make a point to show what the whales do to each other in the film, but I suspect that this happens in the wild, too.

In honesty, he's not small, and if you plunked a big ole kid like that in my room when I was jostling for space in the first place, there'd be elbows all around to send a message.

[faeriewench]

They make a point to show what the whales do to each other in the film, but I suspect that this happens in the wild, too.

Yes, they do rake one another in the wild too as it is how they sort their hierarchies out. All animals that live in groups be it pods, prides and packs...do it in some form or another. Why animal rights extremist try to paint this picture that living in the wild is rainbows and unicorns is beyond me. Captivity is not, but neither is the wild. Wild bottlenose dolphins get extremely BRUTAL among each other in the wild even, I've personally seen that.

[shark6495]

Its about the money. Saying "hey all animals are mean to each other, either in the wild or captivity" would bring in no shock value.

Its the same thing that I could tell you this. "If you asperate (food/liquid down your trachea/windpipe) you are more likely to get pneumonia and could eventually die. "

Now how does the same truth sound " At night, most to all people will asperate while they sleep (natural saliva/mucus), but if you take time for Oral care (brushing of the teeth, mouthwash, etc) you should be a-ok. Also, most young people have healthy enough immune system, you can asperate food and be fine as well. However, if you asperate (food/liquid down your trachea/windpipe) you are more likely to get pneumonia and could eventually die."

Same truth, one is boring and common sense, the other is shocking and makes you not want to put any food/liquid into your lungs. Same with these animal docs. If you think about it, of course all animals fight for dominance. But if you put it under a microscope and only look at a small subset, then it looks bad.

The director admits she is not an activist just a mom with a question and an ability to make a compelling documentary. I would be interested if any of her early contacts or producers either had an axe to grind with SW or was against any zoos, etc. If this was the case its very easy to help create a mood with a movie.

Honestly, to be a documentary maker, you only need to be able to ask a good question and find the answer. To be a good documentary maker, you need to be able to keep an honest and open discussion while getting information from both sides....

[The Interpreter]

They make a point to show what the whales do to each other in the film, but I suspect that this happens in the wild, too.

Yes, they do rake one another in the wild too as it is how they sort their hierarchies out. All animals that live in groups be it pods, prides and packs...do it in some form or another. Why animal rights extremist try to paint this picture that living in the wild is rainbows and unicorns is beyond me. Captivity is not, but neither is the wild. Wild bottlenose dolphins get extremely BRUTAL among each other in the wild even, I've personally seen that.

Humans are animals, being neither plant nor mineral. Humans fight for dominance, be they domesticated or held captive. Some act out in various ways. Some constantly rub up against the built environment, others against the system in various ways.

There are even those who believe we are ourselves being held captive by a higher power, with differences of opinion amongst that group as to how much, if any, free will we have.

Documentaries have been made about that, too. Some are rather eerie, like Area 51.

There was even a movement to release to the wild groups of humans previously labeled as mentally ill--some would say those releases have not been all rainbows and unicorns, but have instead greatly contributed to hunger, poverty, and homelessness; others just as valiantly insist that human dignity was served and the rights of the mentally disabled were furthered.

It's all a matter of perspective.

[TTD-120-420]

Terp, what is the name of the area 51 documentary?

That place has always interested me.

[The Interpreter]

The? There have been many, not to mention the many, many programs Art Bell did based on it. Books, too...

Terp, who lived less than a dozen miles from Roswell for a time...but that was Roswell, Georgia.

[TTD-120-420]

I was wondering if you had a specific one since you said it was eerie.

[The Interpreter]

The area, not the documentary. Though Art Bell could make a chocolate chip cookie recipe sound like an eerie conspiracy.

[thedevariouseffect]

I remember one I watched as a kid, some guy got in trouble for asking for information from Bill Clinton and couldn't talk out of his office or something, that was ages ago...

Just recently too the CIA confirmed the existence of Area 51 for U-2 classified project papers declassified and released

Also..someone on base here in the IT dept is amazing, and likes to have fun. One of the networks on base is Area 52 haha

[TTD-120-420]

I used to always watch shows on the Discovery and History channels that talked about aliens and Area 51. I know exactly what you are talking about with the Bill Clinton incident.