New Arrow Dynamics coaster under construction!

[TheKlockster]

By old school approach, are you referring to the bending of coat hangers into cool looking shapes?

[thejoker8388]

I've heard another reason for Arrow coasters being rough is that the inversions weren't tailored individually for each ride, instead each loop, corkscrew, etc... was the same size no matter how tall the coaster was or how much force the coaster had going into the inversion.

A great picture showing the uniform size of all Arrow loops is this picture of shockwave that used to be at Six Flags Great America. There's a huge slope leading up to the actual loop; whereas any modern day coaster manufacturer has different sized inversions depending on how much force there is going into the inversion, which can be shown by this picture of Dominator at Geauga Lake. The loop actually starts as soon as the train begins traveling upwards compared to Arrow's where there's a large slope before the actual loop. This probably makes for a large difference in the amount of roughness encountered not only during the inversion but also in the transitions for inversion to inversion.

[TheKlockster]

Yeah it is all about transitions. Look at Vortex. Going into the loops, it could do a swooping drop that would curve nicely into the loops, but it goes straight down, then pulls up into the loops real quick you just get punched with this big whop of g force. Then the corkscrews. Coming out of the block brake, you drop straight down, then twist sideways, travel sideways for a second then are sucked up into the first corkscrew. Then coming out of the corkscrew, the track just twists and slams you against the side.

Basically you could nitpick and find bad transitions every single time Vortex makes a change in elevation or direction. The entire thing is a series of bad transitions...

[RailRider]

Toomer, besides using the metal wire to design inversions also had a knack for doing everything on paper. This is why you have the long slopes up to some loops and massive break runs on various Arrow designs. They didnt change the design or the element, they just determined that to lessen the g-force they either needed more track or less speed. Toomer was a pioneer in design, but he never got in to customizing track for rides. As a loop on Vortex will work just fine as a loop on Drachen Fire, who cares about speed and force of the ride. We can figure that out latter.

[Gordon Bombay]

Did toomer really bend coat hangers to make models?

[TheKlockster]

Well some kind of stiff wire. He would bend it to get cool looking layouts - then design the coaster on paper to follow his wire model. And he always did it on paper - he never used computers. Did everything by hand. Thats why, like railrider said, on all the other Arrow megaloopers except Vortex, that first hill, where Vortex has that pop of airtime, would usually end in a loop. It would be a straight slope upward with a loop at the top. He couldn't tailor his elements to properly fit the situations. He had one loop, one Corkscrew etc. That's also why his boomerangs are so bad. Its a half corkscrew into a half loop. I mean - for all intents and purposes - you could say he designed his coasters with Roller Coaster Tycoon 1. You know how you just click insert vertical loop and it pops in - with no control over its size or tightness...

Also Ron Toomer refused to ride any of his coasters!

[DeLorean Rider]

This is true, Ron Toomer never ever rode roller coasaters. He disliked the sensation of them greatly. I always believed that this led to one reason why they were so rough, cause he didnt know they were rough, lol. Personally I think that the only successful arrow looping coaster was Tennessee Tornado. Its a shame that they didnt get it right untill their last one.

[The-Snapper]

This is true, Ron Toomer never ever rode roller coasaters. He disliked the sensation of them greatly. I always believed that this led to one reason why they were so rough, cause he didnt know they were rough, lol. Personally I think that the only successful arrow looping coaster was Tennessee Tornado. Its a shame that they didnt get it right untill their last one.

I totally agree T Tornado is a kick ass ride!!

[RailRider]

To the 3 previous posts I could not agree more.

Toomer never rode them, never used computers and thats why they are some of the roughest transitions. His own coasters made him sick. How bad is that?

I agree T Tornado is the best Arrow looper I have ever been on, but am I correct in saying Toomer was no longer with Arrow when that coaster was designed? I beleive he left/retired a few years prior. I beleive Alan Schilke designed TT and he is also the designer of X. Kinda the man that was waiting in the wings while Toomer puttered around with his wire and paper.

[Legend Rider]

the whole thought being the size of loopd doesnt change is true, however, they are far more advanced than you think, each loop is elevated to the appropriate height, meaning, that slight elevation difference in Vortex's loops, was carefully planned, if they were the same, then the second would experience hang time, or if the rails are cold, not even proceed past it.

[The Interpreter]

With all due respect, Toomer was brilliant. He took coasters where they had not been before. Without him, we probably wouldn't be where we are now.

Besides, one word:

Magnum.

Ahhhhh.

[TheKlockster]

I agree with the interpreter. Although I don't think Toomers coasters are extremely well designed, I do like them, and you have to consider he was a pioneer.

And Legend Rider, I am going to have to throw a dictionary and a book on grammar at you. But yeah you are correct in your post, the reason the second loop is lower, is to account for the loss in velocity due to friction between the loops.

[Delirium_Guy]

dude, cci wasn't ALL bad... Legend... Raven...

They designed AMAZING rides. Problem was, they built them like ****. Pretty much every ride they built, with the exception of a few, had to be retracked after the first season. Track work, structural problems. They tried to blame PTC trains, which is why they switched to Gerstlauer. The problems continued to persist, though. There were a few rides that you could tell were beefed up at the Parks recommendations though. But come on, Shivering Timbers only cost Michigan's Adventure $3 million to build.....and thats a HUGE ride. You draw the picture. Ever see that final helix sway? It moved about 6 feet or so when it opened.

[The Interpreter]

Actually, I understand the major reason they switched to Gerstlauer had to do with the fact that for some reason or other they could no longer get PTC trains. It was easier for Denise and company and less damaging to business to tell people and parks that they CHOSE to use Gerstlauer trains. Yeah, sure. About like someone chooses to heat their house with wood after the natural gas is cut off for some reason....

Where CCI's did later appear with PTC trains, the parks most often had purchased them directly from PTC.

As for CCI building low cost coasters, the parks got what they bargained for. They were willingly buying low cost up front. CCI COULD build long lasting rides, or they could build economical first cost rides. They bid the latter, thinking that if the parks wanted more they could always add to the cost later. Meanwhile, their major competitor built far fewer rides that cost quite a bit more but have lasted far better as well.

And SOME CCI's held up well...like Boulder Dash and Ghost Rider...coasters where the parks or local codes required them to build them to a higher, and more costly standard. Needless to say, they cost more than the 'standard' CCI construction methods.