Cedar Point to Remain Flagship

[The Interpreter]

and get a bulk of capital expenditures---article in local Sandusky, Ohio paper.

Here are some quotes from the story. You really will want to read the entire thing, which is posted at the link at the end of this post.

...Cedar Point usually gets a bulk of the capital dollars, which will continue, said Dick Kinzel, president, chairman and chief executive officer, on Wednesday....

"A park like Cedar Point can justify a major new attraction every two or three years," [stacy] Frole [Cedar Fair's director of investor relations] said....

"Cedar Point will remain the flagship," said Beth Robertson, vice president of communications for the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions. "It will remain the destination."

Robertson said Paramount's Carowinds, near Charlotte, N.C., is a destination as well because of the weather and the park being half in South Carolina and North Carolina.

"It's a fun hook," she said....

Interestingly, there is not one single word about Kings Island in that story. (The effect this story, if accurate, and not just Sandusky area support from public relations, will have on Kings Island is why I posted this here and not in Other Parks. This really IS about Kings Island and the future of Kings Island, not just about Cedar Point!)

Here, a link, to pointbuzz.com, which reprints the story:

http://www.pointbuzz.com/news.htm?id=926

[jzarley]

It really does make sense...Cedar Point is a full-fledged destination resort, whereas KI is mainly a day trip kind of place. Kinzel mentioned several times that CF overall has a guest per cap spending rate that is about $4 higher than Paramount Parks, my guess is that amount is considerably greater if you're just looking at CP. Of course, that's not to say that KI will be completely ignored...it's still a park that pulls in 3M+ per year. (And, hey, if "Patriot", "Hydra", and "Steel Force" is how they treat their second tier parks, I can live with that )

I've always been suprised that Knotts didn't rise into that "flagship" spot, considering its location and year-round operation.

Anyone else think that Wonderland would make a great spot for a "Castaway Bay" resort/indoor waterpark?

[Gordon Bombay]

Do you two gentleman think that Kings Island will eventually become a destination spot like CP with the latest edition of the GWL and whats t come from CF. Could you see CF turning PKI into a destination spot like CP?

[WooferBearATL]

Oh WOW! Seems like days may be very bright for Carrowinds. I can see all types of Resort type attractions being put in around there but I'm not really sure where they'd put them.

[Reclaimer]

I have a feeling KI will still be treated like royalty...somewhat. Like a 'little brother' to Cedar Point.

Kinzel loves Kings Island and has been wanting to purchase it for quite some time, as seen in this article:

http://www.pointbuzz.com/news.htm?id=928

"Even before CBS announced the parks were for sale in January, Cedar Fair executives were visiting the parks in case it did come true.

"We always wanted Kings Island -- it's a real jewel," Kinzel said.

Cedar Fair had tried to buy Kings Island in the early 1990s, but Paramount spent more, Kinzel said. This time around, it wasn't an option to buy only Kings Island because CBS always intended on selling all five Paramount Parks, Frole said. "

[jzarley]

And, what could really feed Carowinds development is the rapid (and projected) growth of the Charlotte MSA. (Unless, of course, the land value rises so much that selling it for other development becomes much more lucrative than revenue from park operations...)

You're right, though...land for expansion is pretty tight the way it is at that park.

[WooferBearATL]

Carrowinds is easily the most land locked park in the chain. But who knows, Disneyland seems to be able to find property as crowded as it is around there.

[Shaggy]

Both Carowinds and Wonderland are land locked. I was shocked the last time I was at Wonderland and saw all the urban spread surrounding it. In the course of 5 years, the park has been engulfed by development. The park even sold off most of it's unused land to a condo developer. It's quite sad.

Shaggy

[adam12]

http://www.pointbuzz.com/news.htm?id=928

"The former owner of Kings Island's, Taft Broadcasting Company, made a play for Cedar Point in the 1970s. Cedar Point wasn't even for sale."

That's AWESOME! Can you imagine if that would have went through? Kings Island would have been "King of Ohio" when it comes to amusement parks!

-adam12

[KIBeast]

Combat, I think that eventually King's Island will become a resort destination. Not sure if any of the other parks will follow suit. What King's Island needs is a hotel, campground, and some kind of camper village, all within reasonable distance to entrance gates.

[jzarley]

Do you two gentleman think that Kings Island will eventually become a destination spot like CP with the latest edition of the GWL and whats t come from CF. Could you see CF turning PKI into a destination spot like CP?

I think it's really impossible to say what will happen in the future at this point , but it sure is FUN to speculate!

Having worked for a hotel corporation that owned/operated over ten properties in the Cincinnati metro area, I can tell you that hotel bookings are pretty good there year-round, and very strong during the Summer. And, Warren County reports that their largest industry is tourism. So, it seems somewhat logical that there might be some growth opportunities there for Cedar Fair.

Since the parks are a "mature" industry and won't see a lot of attendance growth, the method for growing revenue falls to increasing the average guest's length of stay, and/or per cap spending. To do that, you've got to give them something to do while they're there.

Here's what I think would be cool (and, again, I'm just speculating/talking off the top of my head):

1) Repackage Boomerang Bay as a separate gated attraction (all of a sudden what most people did in a day, they'll now take two days to do...)

2) Take some of that available land to build a "Challenge Park" type area that's separate from the main park...with a few minature golf courses, and move the "pay-to-play" attractions there. (I'd put this out in the front somewhere so that it's easy to get to, and could have a much longer season than the rest of the park.)

3) Re-open a new campground, possibly with some Light House Point-esque cabins.

4) Build a "Nickelodeon Family Suites" hotel. I'm not sure how Viacom has structured the licensing with Intercontinental for this concept, but if the licensing could be resolved this could be a real hit for CF. The one in Orlando is doing abolutely fantastic!

Again...just some uninformed rambling on my part

[Shaggy]

I would think that one thing is a given... CF is HUGE on camping accomidations... so I'd expect the KI Campground to return in forthcoming seasons.

Shaggy

[MrPKI]

That would be a great thing to have back. We always stayed at the campground whenever we could.

I don't like the idea of the separate gate Boomerang Bay or extra challenge park, though. That's just another thing to bring the park down to "Cedar Fair standards". I guess the challenge park is just more-or-less the copying of CP, but the separate-gated waterpark makes it much less of a draw IMO.

I would probably almost never go there if it cost extra. And I'm sure the GP would notice the change as well. There's no need to increase the price of what has been an included in admission waterpark from the beginning. HW does great getting people to come to their park with the help of the waterpark. Putting an extra price on the current one would draw people away more than toward the waterpark IMO.

Another thing on cost-extra waterparks that I've noticed is that they don't seem to have the most up to date attractions. When I went to CP's Soak City, it seemed like they were still back in the early '90's in terms of current rides? Things like Tazmanian Typhoon, the Flowrider, Coolangatta Racer, HW's Jungle Racer, Bahari River, and Zinga, ect. are the new life of waterparks. There's just something amazing about how rides like these can be marketed as opposed to "We have a new body slide". You know, everyone's seen those before. This actually brings me to an interesting question......when was the last time CP added anything to their waterpark?

I like the Nick suites hotel idea though, but I'm not sure how likely that is with the GWL going up now. Maybe they would add that to the property in a few years. That would definately bring in the bucks.

[jzarley]

This actually brings me to an interesting question......when was the last time CP added anything to their waterpark?

"Splash Zone" (one of those interactive water play structure things) was added in 2004. In 2005 they added some rentable cabanas and a new swim-up bar. At some point or other in the last few years, they also added a "rushing river" (it's like a fast, lazy river that's pretty fun) but I'm not exactly sure when it came about.

Keep in mind my whole reasoning behind making BB a separate gate...to increase Length-of-Stay. I'd also imagine admission at the "main" park would decrease (say...to $39.99 or so) if that were to happen. I really do think there's opportunity there for incremental revenue, as well as increasing the average guest LOS.

As far as going "down to Cedar Fair's standards", considering their superior per-cap spending and better operating margins, from a business standpoint that's a pretty good standard to "go down" to.

But, again, this is all just talk and idle speculation anyway...

[Erosarrow05]

Well in 2004 CP added the water fortress like PKI's and virtually every other waterpark .... Those things while very popular, are a dime a dozen.... Before that, the last install at Soak City was the second wave pool.... I would have to agree though that charging extra for BB would be more of a deterrent than a draw. I do believe that PKI has the ability to become a resort destination like CP - the question is, will CF invest the money to make that happen - probably not.

ps - i love everyones homemade graphics about "Kings Island - a Cedar Fair LP park" .... super cute - *sarcasm off*

[Reclaimer]

What does your last comment have to do with anything being discussed here?

It's a signature...find something better to whine about. Jesus.

[The Interpreter]

Erosarrow05, you may as well love those graphics, as I can about guarantee you that is the way Kings Island will be referred to next year. . .

[WooferBearATL]

Both Carowinds and Wonderland are land locked. I was shocked the last time I was at Wonderland and saw all the urban spread surrounding it. In the course of 5 years, the park has been engulfed by development. The park even sold off most of it's unused land to a condo developer. It's quite sad.

Shaggy

OH WOW!

I haven't been to Wonderland for about 8 or 9 years but there used to be NOTHING around the park. It was just beautiful.

[PKIVortex]

Cedar Fair does have 3 parks that do not charge extra for their Waterparks. GL, DP and MA. I'm sure it's unlikey that Cedar Fair would start to charge for the Paramount Parks waterparks. Of course anything is possible. Lets hope not though.

[KIBeast]

The only way that BB becomes a separate gate is IF, and this is a big IF, KI becomes a resort destination. Say it with me now...RESORT DESTINATION. Otherwise, it stays the same. It is NOT common practice for Cedar Fair to charge for separate gates. It's already been mentioned that a good portion of them do not.

[MrPKI]

"Splash Zone" (one of those interactive water play structure things) was added in 2004.  In 2005 they added some rentable cabanas and a new swim-up bar.  At some point or other in the last few years, they also added a "rushing river" (it's like a fast, lazy river that's pretty fun) but I'm not exactly sure when it came about.

I went to Soak City in '04 and I remember there being a swim-up bar. Did they get a new one? Sure the cabanas are great, but they aren't something that everyone can always do. I guess that's why I'm not as big a fan of the challenge park type stuff and the pay-extra waterpark. It feels like there are so many strings attached to what is just supposed to be a fun day at the park.

Keep in mind my whole reasoning behind making BB a separate gate...to increase Length-of-Stay.  I'd also imagine admission at the "main" park would decrease (say...to $39.99 or so) if that were to happen.  I really do think there's opportunity there for incremental revenue, as well as increasing the average guest LOS.

I can definately see why they would want to do this, and that's fine for all the out-of-town guests who are looking for a great vacation. But I think this is not a good thing for all the locals or people that drive two hours to the park and go home that night. They simply don't have time to experience most of what the park has to offer. At least you can get a sampling of the waterpark if you're there for a day. I think that adds great mental value to the whole deal (Just seeing that you can go to the waterpark for free gets a lot of people in).

As far as going "down to Cedar Fair's standards", considering their superior per-cap spending and better operating margins, from a business standpoint that's a pretty good standard to "go down" to.

From a business and operations standpoint, yes. But I guess I just don't like the idea of all this rearranging that comes with acquiring a new park. It's the changing of the atmosphere that gets me too, not the choice of attractions that CF puts in. It's the way they put them in that I don't like.

But, again, this is all just talk and idle speculation anyway... 

Agreed, we don't really know anything yet about how CF will go about changing the parks.

ps - i love everyones homemade graphics about "Kings Island - a Cedar Fair LP park" .... super cute - *sarcasm off*

That's kinda weird how no one who has those in their signatures has posted in this topic yet. I'm not a particularly big fan of them either. I guess I don't like the assumption that CF will put Snoopy all over the park. We just don't know yet. But hey, to each his own; It's their signature.

[The Interpreter]

The only way that BB becomes a separate gate is IF, and this is a big IF, KI becomes a resort destination. Say it with me now...RESORT DESTINATION. Otherwise, it stays the same. It is NOT common practice for Cedar Fair to charge for separate gates. It's already been mentioned that a good portion of them do not.

So Kansas City is a resort destination?

Who knew?

http://www.worldsoffun.com/public/tickets/

[jzarley]

The only way that BB becomes a separate gate is IF, and this is a big IF, KI becomes a resort destination.  Say it with me now...RESORT DESTINATION.  Otherwise, it stays the same.  It is NOT common practice for Cedar Fair to charge for separate gates.  It's already been mentioned that a good portion of them do not.

Ok...so keep in mind CombatStupendous89's post that kicked off the whole discussion to begin with:

"Do you two gentleman think that Kings Island will eventually become a destination spot like CP with the latest edition of the GWL and whats t come from CF. Could you see CF turning PKI into a destination spot like CP?"

So, yes, that's pretty much the scenario we were talking about...

Hypothetically suggesting that BB as a separate gate might make sense from a business standpoint really wasn't intended to upset anyone...

Again, this is all just blowing smoke/speculative fun.

[KIBeast]

^I wasn't upset. But, some people are assuming that automatically, since KI is now a CF property, BB will definitely be a separate charge. I'm saying that it's not necessarily going to happen. There are as many CF properties that do as there are that do not charge separate gates. And, there's also the assumption that the execs at CF haven't considered any of the things that we are talking about.

[Captain Picard]

We will find out when they start selling 07 passes.

[jzarley]

And, there's also the assumption that the execs at CF haven't considered any of the things that we are talking about.

My presumption is that you're not attributing either "assumption" to my posts, as I have written nothing that suggests, implies, or even remotely hints at such a thing.

[KIBeast]

No, I wasn't really referring to any one poster in particular. What I have been reading suggests that some believe that the execs at CF haven't considered some of the things that we are discussing, like separate gate fees and a lot of other junk.

[The Interpreter]

No, I wasn't really referring to any one poster in particular. What I have been reading suggests that some believe that the execs at CF haven't considered some of the things that we are discussing, like separate gate fees and a lot of other junk.

Junk???

[WooferBearATL]

No, I wasn't really referring to any one poster in particular.  What I have been reading suggests that some believe that the execs at CF haven't considered some of the things that we are discussing, like separate gate fees and a lot of other junk.

Junk???

Junk!

It's that new attraction that is part Flea Market. <G>

Oh, I got a million of em today!

[Jasper]

It will be sad to see PKI (CFKI) go down the drain if CF does not want anything to do with it. But i am sure that CF is a good company so they will still keep it up and running.