Trim Brakes

[The Beast Rider]

Well I guess you could go back and forth like this and find reasons for either side. If you look at HW's schedule you could say wow..its open DAILY beginning May 3rd and KI is only open weekends. Yes HW does close about 3 wknds earlier than Ki but I do not see it as one has more operating days then the other ..that argument does not wash. Now KI does have a much higher attendance of course. But what about the parks out there that match that attendance or open year round that do not have trims? I guess there will be another excuse for that. It's a choice each park makes. No one is ripping on this or that park. People who love coasters (for the most part) love coasters without trims and that is a fact. We can't always get what we want but we can always ***** about it. ;-)

KI has more operating days and more operating hours which equals less time to provide the maintenance needed to have a trimless ride.

What I understand to be Beast's history:

April 1979- Beast opens, with 4-bench trains and traditional lap bars.

Mid 1979- Brakes added to first drop

1980- Brakes added to helix drop.

Early 80's- 4-bench trains replaced with 3-bench trains, due to tracking problems. These trains featured traditional lap bars once again.

Late 80's- Headrests added to trains.

Early 90's- Ratcheting lap bars added. I believe the headrests were covered with a vinyl material in this year.

Early 2002- Skid brakes replaced with magnetic brakes in every trim location, except for the first drop.

Mid 2002- Magnetic brakes replaced skid brakes on first drop.

2004- Retracting seat belts added.

What I question is: how can a person know what kind of forces, Beast in this discussion, a coaster has w/o trims since the ride has always had brakes magnetic or skid?

The reason why I bring it up, is that smaller coasters (like Blue Streak at CP) does not have trim brakes on the ride at all. Yet larger coasters, ones that exert more force, have trims.

Well, how very interesting. You say that Beast opened to the public with no brakes on the first drop nor the helix drop. I thought I read in argument after argument that no brakes were added to Beast that were not original? Hummmmm.

As far as knowing the forces that Beast can produce, you neglect to remember the coaster events in which all the trims were disabled. Trimless rides don't you know. There weren't very many, but yes, they did happen.

[Browntggrr]

Well, how very interesting. You say that Beast opened to the public with no brakes on the first drop nor the helix drop. I thought I read in argument after argument that no brakes were added to Beast that were not original? Hummmmm.

As far as knowing the forces that Beast can produce, you neglect to remember the coaster events in which all the trims were disabled. Trimless rides don't you know. There weren't very many, but yes, they did happen.

Are you kidding?

You are just trying to split hairs to argue something that is pointless. They added brakes to the ride within the first 12 months of the rides' operation, and the brakes have since lasted almost 30 years later for a good reason, they are obviously necessary for most people. It is certainly not unique to Beast that modifications were made shortly after a new coaster is built.

Are you going to try and argue that the inversion on Maverick did not need to be removed since some people rode it with the inversion?

Technology back in '79 is nowhere near what it is today, so yeah, things were obviously changed since day one. And even in today's World, things are still changed early in the life of a coaster.

So please tell me, what trimless ride experiences, and what events, do you have on Beast? I would love to hear your first hand opinion.

And since we are now splitting hairs, I love your name "The Beast Rider" with the signature "Welcome to Cedar Fair, the trim brake capital of the world!" Did you know that CF has added no brakes to Beast? Just an FYI.

[The Beast Rider]

Well, how very interesting. You say that Beast opened to the public with no brakes on the first drop nor the helix drop. I thought I read in argument after argument that no brakes were added to Beast that were not original? Hummmmm.

As far as knowing the forces that Beast can produce, you neglect to remember the coaster events in which all the trims were disabled. Trimless rides don't you know. There weren't very many, but yes, they did happen.

Are you kidding?

You are just trying to split hairs to argue something that is pointless. They added brakes to the ride within the first 12 months of the rides' operation, and the brakes have since lasted almost 30 years later for a good reason, they are obviously necessary for most people. It is certainly not unique to Beast that modifications were made shortly after a new coaster is built.

Are you going to try and argue that the inversion on Maverick did not need to be removed since some people rode it with the inversion?

Technology back in '79 is nowhere near what it is today, so yeah, things were obviously changed since day one. And even in today's World, things are still changed early in the life of a coaster.

So please tell me, what trimless ride experiences, and what events, do you have on Beast? I would love to hear your first hand opinion.

And since we are now splitting hairs, I love your name "The Beast Rider" with the signature "Welcome to Cedar Fair, the trim brake capital of the world!" Did you know that CF has added no brakes to Beast? Just an FYI.

To be perfectly honest, I don't know anything about the inversion on Maverick, other than it was removed. Apparently, you didn't read the sarcasm in that post. However, I do love to split hairs.

I do know that CF has not added any brakes to Beast, and I suppose they technically have not added any to Racer, Beastie, FOF, or SOB either, even though the trim on those coasters are now in continuous use (which they were not before CF). You have to agree, they certainly have not removed any, either.

[Browntggrr]

I do know that CF has not added any brakes to Beast, and I suppose they technically have not added any to Racer, Beastie, FOF, or SOB either, even though the trim on those coasters are now in continuous use (which they were not before CF). You have to agree, they certainly have not removed any, either.

Well, there is no reason to remove any brakes if they have always been there.

And I would like to see the facts that trims are constantly being used in the coasters you mentioned. In all my trips to KI, I have not noticed anything different on any of the rides.

And don't forget to give us your first hand opinion, and dates of the events, on the trimless rides on Beast. I am anxious to hear about them.

[Zorba]

Is it just me or does the trim on the Red racer seem a little strong than the one on the blue side? I've noticed the last couple times I was there the two sides would be tied going into the trim, then the blue pulls way out into the lead. I didn't notice this at all the beginning of the season.

[Gordon Bombay]

You know, I have gone back and read through the vast majority of the Trim Brakes threading. My first impression: I sure hope that "dare-to-fly" doesn't drive a car because his perception of speed is very skewed. I've been riding Beast since the year that it opened. Yep, rode the 40 passenger original trains and was there the year they went to the shorter trains. There has been a trim brake on the downhill into the helix since day one, only then it was a skid brake.

Like others, I was disappointed with one of the new magnetic trims. In particular the one in the "outwoods station" (don't remember what KI calls it. They do have a name for it.) There was always a skid brake in that area but it was smoother and more gentle than the mag brake. I was disappointed with the very hard discernable braking near the end of that platform. But I really don't believe that it is any slower than the "skids" were going into the turn to the tunnel run.

As for requiring trims. CCI used to pride itself on designing coasters with no trims anywhere on the run. Most of those are still running. CP Mean Streak was originally designed and built without a trim at the bottom of the chain drop. However, it was tearing the structure apart so badly that the decision was made to trim it enough to ease some of the stress on the structure.

Well thought out and planned designs won't need trims on the run. I regress; CCI used to pride itself. But with the skyrocketing cost of materials and manhours, trims came and are here to stay. Sometimes "YEA" sometimes "YUCK".

All said, I don't honestly feel that there is a noticeable difference in the speed of Beast from year 1 to today.

Well said bear! Although, I have to point out that The Beast has had the same trains since day one, just heavily modified to accomidate different seating arangments, different lap bar mechanisms, different congifgurations of padding and headrests, and so forth. The chassis on all of the cars are original, yet were cut down when they were modified from four rows to three. Many other parts of the trains are also original.

You are positively wrong about The Beast having the same trains since day one. The original trains were red blended into yellow and had 4 seats per car instead of the 3 seats today. Guess I will have to do the research and dig up the photos of the original trains. They were too long and way too heavy and were replaced somewhere around year 3 with the 3 seat trains.

I believe that Gordon is right about the trains. The trains have been modified a number of times over the years. I also believe the chassis of the trains is the original, but has been heavily modified to remove the fourth seat.

Also, you don't have to look back to the beginning of The Beast notice the slowing down. It is easily noticeable just from a few years ago. It really started to go downhill with the addition of the magnetic trims.

Thanks Beast Rider, the chassis on the current Beast trains are original to the ride, as are many other mechanisms. Bear, they can repaint trains...in fact they repaint all the wood coaster trains every year (not sure about Son of Beast and Adventure Express, which the wood coaster department maintains, but the PTC trains on Racer and Beast receive a fresh coat of paint each off season).

As for the brake line of Beast being a trim brake, it was in fact always there braking the ride to keep it running within "acceptable" paramaters. In the past, yes, it was a block for the ride and could be stopped there and the ride resumed with feed motors, however it always featured a skid brake for trimming the ride.

Also the brakes on Beast do not make it go any slower, the braking is just way more abrupt and sudden than it was in the past. The skid brakes acted on friction and could be raised and lowered by a counterweight depending on how maintenance wanted the ride to run. When raised higher, they created more friction for more braking, when lower, they allowed less friction for less braking. The skid brakes extended nearly all the way down the first drop, a good deal down the second drop, right before the pneumatic pinch brakes in the brake line, and right as you entered the final brake run. The magnetic brakes do the same job, just much more quickly and do not require the signifigant amount of length the skid brakes required.

Vortex separating from the supports in 1988? Welded steel just coming apart? With how fast that train takes that turn, I really doubt there never used to be some form of braking there.

[dare-to-fly]

Yes the trim on Red Racer is overkilled at the moment. (Even though it has brand new track.) The one on both sides need to go, but I'm not getting into that argument again.

True enough, Cedar Fair did not add brakes to any of KI's coasters (except perhaps the new one on Backlot Stunt Coaster (but I will ADMIT I'm not sure when it was added right after the "splashdown" moment.) However, they HAD to add the ones to Magnum, Mean Streak, Maverick, Cedar Creek Mine Ride (when used), Mantis, Raptor, and especially the ridiculous ones on Gemini, so they obviously share KI's philosophy of trimming rides to death as a substitute for good maintenance.

The former block brake of The Beast were skid brakes. You can't have it both ways. Either they can control the brakes or they can't. If they would have had to manually adjust the counterweights, it would not have been able to stop a train because it wouldn't have been able to adjust itself.

Speaking of being able to have a trimless ride, who would remember exact dates and times. I personally have read about them, but unfortunately never got to experience them. If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight.

Now, for my all-important message directly to Cedar Fair. I honestly think the vast majority if not all of the enthusiast that I constantly hear sharing my complaint of the brakes on The Beast would shut up if the brake at the top of the second hill was completely removed. Removing one brake would not make a great deal of difference maintenance wise I wouldn't think, and that would allow The Beast to have the airhill that it so desperately craves, and HAS, and that would make the pacing of the rest of the ride slightly faster, and therefore satisfy our craving for intensity. We would all shut up, I believe, if just that one brake was gone.

[Browntggrr]

I personally have read about them, but unfortunately never got to experience them. If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight.

So you really have no idea about what kind of ride a trimless Beast will give.

But you feel the need to question why the trims are there, and on top of that criticize a company and question their maintenance procedures(which only happens to be one of many reasons trims are necessary)? Based on second hand information?

You need to seriously explore other parks than the 14 you have been to and form your own opinion. Not an opinion based upon some else's ideals. You need to expand your horizons and get to other parks to see that trims on larger coasters is not unique to only a small handful of parks.

Never having a trimless ride, and then telling a company on how their coaster should operate is not only arrogant presumption, it is immature.

[dare-to-fly]

I personally have read about them, but unfortunately never got to experience them. If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight.

So you really have no idea about what kind of ride a trimless Beast will give.

But you feel the need to question why the trims are there, and on top of that criticize a company and question their maintenance procedures(which only happens to be one of many reasons trims are necessary)? Based on second hand information?

You need to seriously explore other parks than the 20 you have been to and form your own opinion. Not an opinion based upon some else's ideals.

Never having a trimless ride, and then telling a company on how their coaster should operate is not only arrogant presumption, it is immature.

However, being as the faster The Beast runs, the better the ride is, one can only imagine the kinds of rides The Beast would give if given the opportunity. Talk to anyone other than the also arrogant members of this trim brake forum....I mean coaster forum, and they will tell you the same thing. I've also noticed I'm not the only member of this forum that feels this way about the trims. In case you haven't noticed, there are MANY!

Plus, I HAVE my own opinion. The only thing that I lack is being able to ride The Beast completely trimless to tell what the ride is supposed to be like. Again, the faster it moves, the better the ride always is to me. And as I already said, get rid of the one, and I'll gladly shut up.

Also, speaking of being presumptuous, how would you possibly have a clue how many parks I've been to or how many coasters I have ridden to possibly know what kind of forces I have experienced or what my preferences are????? Talk about being arrogant. As for immature, so is turning everything into a full scale debate, not that I'm doing anything to curb that, but you're not innocent yourself.

[Browntggrr]

Go ahead and move on to other parks than the 14 you have been to.

You don't like trims. Good. Move on. They have been on Beast for almost 30 years now and your constant, inexperienced whining is baseless due to have no first hand experience. You have no idea what kind of ride Beast will give trimless, but since YOU believe it would be good for the ride, and everyone else for that matter, the park should do it?

Wow. You really need to get out more.

[Browntggrr]

Also, speaking of being presumptuous, how would you possibly have a clue how many parks I've been to or how many coasters I have ridden to possibly know what kind of forces I have experienced or what my preferences are????? Talk about being arrogant. As for immature, so is turning everything into a full scale debate, not that I'm doing anything to curb that, but you're not innocent yourself.

From you own mouth on another site:

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:

Starting with number 1:

Phantom's Revenge @ Kennywood

Millennium Force @ Cedar Point, Magnum XL 200 @ Cedar Point (depends on whether the trim brake is on for Magnum as to which I like better)

Dominator @ Geauga Lake (or was)

Raptor @ Cedar Point

Top Thrill Dragster @ Cedar Point

Flight of Fear @ Kings Island

Top Gun @ Kings Island

Hangman @ Wild Adventures

Thunderhawk @ Geauga Lake (was)

Boomerang @ Wild Adventures

Head Spin @ Geauga Lake

Maverick @ Cedar Point

Corkscrew @ Cedar Point

Iron Dragon @ Cedar Point

Vortex @ Kings Island

The Serpent @ Americana (was)

Corkscrew @ Michigans Adventure

Firehawk @ Kings Island

Wicked Twister @ Cedar Point

Double Loop @ Geauga Lake (RIP)

Face Off @ Kings Island

Italian Job Stunt Track @ Kings Island

Swamp Thing @ Cypress Gardens

Swamp Thing @ Wild Adventures

Runaway Reptar @ Kings Island

Wildcat @ Cedar Point

The Windstorm @ Old Town

Galaxi @ Indiana Beach

Okeechobee Rampage @ Cypress Gardens

Ant Farm Express @ Wild Adventures

Beaver Land Mine Ride @ Geauga Lake

Mad Mouse @ Old Indiana

Mad Mouse @ Michigan's Adventure

Bug Out @ Wild Adventures

Mantis @ Cedar Point

Tig'rr @ Indiana Beach

Wild Mouse @ Idlewild

Gold Rush @ Wild Adventures

The Stinger @ Fayette County Free Fair

Scooby's Ghoster Coaster @ Kings Island

Toboggan @ Lakemont Park

The Howler @ Holiday World

Those parks equal to a rather small amount of parks.

And of those parks, only 4 really have large enough coasters to need trims. Hit some SF, Busch, Universal, and Disney parks to see why trims are used on coasters.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

...True enough, Cedar Fair did not add brakes to any of KI's coasters (except perhaps the new one on Backlot Stunt Coaster (but I will ADMIT I'm not sure when it was added right after the "splashdown" moment.)...

...If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight....

...Now, for my all-important message directly to Cedar Fair. I honestly think the vast majority if not all of the enthusiast that I constantly hear sharing my complaint of the brakes on The Beast would shut up if the brake at the top of the second hill was completely removed...

... Removing one brake would not make a great deal of difference maintenance wise I wouldn't think,...

- Backlots trim brake has been there since day one. So now you know.

- I'd rather take advice from a goat

- Just a strongly educated guess here, but I honestly think Cedar Fair doesn't give a rats behind what you, or any other enthusiast thinks about the trim brakes on The Beast.

- You think wrong.

[dare-to-fly]

...True enough, Cedar Fair did not add brakes to any of KI's coasters (except perhaps the new one on Backlot Stunt Coaster (but I will ADMIT I'm not sure when it was added right after the "splashdown" moment.)...

...If you were asking me, I would tell you to forward your question to Mr. Don Flint of KIExtreme.com! He'll set you straight....

...Now, for my all-important message directly to Cedar Fair. I honestly think the vast majority if not all of the enthusiast that I constantly hear sharing my complaint of the brakes on The Beast would shut up if the brake at the top of the second hill was completely removed...

... Removing one brake would not make a great deal of difference maintenance wise I wouldn't think,...

- Backlots trim brake has been there since day one. So now you know.

- I'd rather take advice from a goat

- Just a strongly educated guess here, but I honestly think Cedar Fair doesn't give a rats behind what you, or any other enthusiast thinks about the trim brakes on The Beast.

- You think wrong.

1. Okay.

2. That's your problem, not mine.

3. That's EXACTLY the problem, glad you highlighted it.

4. Prove it!

--

Those parks equal to a rather small amount of parks

1. I've added quite a number of parks since then.

2. Working on that!

3. I've seen coasters that need trims, but very, VERY rarely, and certainly not as many as KI uses.

4. You have way too much time on your hands if you're going to look up someone else's park logs, coaster ranks, etc. just so you can be an arrogant jerk consistent with what I have seen on this forum.

And...most importantly, that's only the steel coasters. Try looking for all of them.

[Browntggrr]

4. You have way too much time on your hands if you're going to look up someone else's park logs, coaster ranks, etc. just so you can be an arrogant jerk consistent with what I have seen on this forum.

Actually it took about 5 minutes to find out you really have no basis of comparison for any opinion on trims.

Everyone wants a coaster to go faster and have airtime, but it is the person who understands why a park will make a decision to have trims that is the true enthusiast. They know that the ride is there for everyone's enjoyment, not just their own enjoyment.

And if you think I'm an arrogant jerk, given your limited view on things, I'll take that as being a really good guy. Thanks for the compliment!

[dare-to-fly]

4. You have way too much time on your hands if you're going to look up someone else's park logs, coaster ranks, etc. just so you can be an arrogant jerk consistent with what I have seen on this forum.

Actually it took about 5 minutes to find out you really have no basis of comparison for any opinion on trims.

Everyone wants a coaster to go faster and have airtime, but it is the person who understands why a park will make a decision to have trims that is the true enthusiast. They know that the ride is there for everyone's enjoyment, not just their own enjoyment.

And if you think I'm an arrogant jerk, given your limited view on things, I'll take that as being a really good guy. Thanks for the compliment!

Taking a direct insult as a compliment sounds right up your alley. One should point out that I really don't give a flying radiator hose why a park kills a ride with a trim brake. I'm a coaster enthusiast not a business enthusiast like yourself. I'm just simply pointing out that the rest of us who are true coaster enthusiasts would be happier if a coaster was allowed to live. You don't have to go to 500 parks to see that Kings Island and Cedar Point use trims more than the other said parks. If I discover something to the contrary in the future, you'll be the first to know. I won't change my mind.

[Browntggrr]

Taking a direct insult as a compliment sounds right up your alley.

Well considering it came from you, what else to you expect?

One should point out that I really don't give a flying radiator hose why a park kills a ride with a trim brake.

How do you know that a park is killing a ride with a trim? What experiences do you have with the subject? Or are you just trying to give off second hand information and pass it off as your own again?

You don't have to go to 500 parks to see that Kings Island and Cedar Point use trims more than the other said parks.

You may want to clarify that. In your opinion, YOU don't have to go to other parks to see that KI and CP use trims more than others.

But in reality, they use trims just like everyone else. You just have not been to enough parks to figure that out.

If I discover something to the contrary in the future, you'll be the first to know. I won't change my mind.

So if you discover something in the future, I'll be the first to know.

Well thanks, I appreciate that. But what I don't understand is the "I won't change my mind" part. Does that mean you are so closed minded that once you finally do get to other parks not associated with CF, you still won't change your mind on trims or that CF is the only chain that over uses trims?

Since you have already admitted that CF has not added any trims to KI's coasters since the Paramount regime, and, given your limited experience with other parks, I am surprised that you have not figured out that if the two biggest parks under different ownership that you have been to use trims, other parks probably use them as well.

[dare-to-fly]

Taking a direct insult as a compliment sounds right up your alley.

Well considering it came from you, what else to you expect?

One should point out that I really don't give a flying radiator hose why a park kills a ride with a trim brake.

How do you know that a park is killing a ride with a trim? What experiences do you have with the subject? Or are you just trying to give off second hand information and pass it off as your own again?

You don't have to go to 500 parks to see that Kings Island and Cedar Point use trims more than the other said parks.

You may want to clarify that. In your opinion, YOU don't have to go to other parks to see that KI and CP use trims more than others.

But in reality, they use trims just like everyone else. You just have not been to enough parks to figure that out.

If I discover something to the contrary in the future, you'll be the first to know. I won't change my mind.

So if you discover something in the future, I'll be the first to know.

Well thanks, I appreciate that. But what I don't understand is the "I won't change my mind" part. Does that mean you are so closed minded that once you finally do get to other parks not associated with CF, you still won't change your mind on trims or that CF is the only chain that over uses trims?

Since you have already admitted that CF has not added any trims to KI's coasters since the Paramount regime, and, given your limited experience with other parks, I am surprised that you have not figured out that if the two biggest parks under different ownership use trims, other parks probably use them as well.

1. Considering that it is you...that!

2. Let me give you a few examples...Gemini, reduced to a crawl around the third turnaround and again before the helix, which takes the fun and airtime out of the last return trip and all the fun out of the helix. Without = a blast. Magnum with trim = okay, Magnum without = a blast. Mean Streak with trims = smooth, but lacking any kind of coaster like intensity except in a few spots, without some of the trims = rough, but it has some speed to help it out. Maverick with trim--silly, Maverick w/o trim--second half the ride is insane. Voyage with trim = insane, without = insane gone insane. Mantis w/ trim = whiplash on downhill section and slower ride, Mantis w/o trim--no whiplash on downhill section, but bad example because I'm partial to the hang time at the top of the loop. Flight of Fear = more fun with extra launch speed and no trim brake. Racer = much more airtime and much more fun without trim. Beastie = more fun without trim, and having one is just dumb. I can go on, you asked!

3. Doubtful. I understand that there are other parks that use trims, and quite a number, and I understand the need for them on a very rare occasion. While Cedar Fair hasn't added any to KI's coasters, I remind you that they have to their own, and I have yet to find other parks (even among the CF chain) that have over half of the coasters trimmed. Let's explore:

Firehawk: non-trimmed

Flight of Fear: Trimmed

Vortex: Trimmed

Racer: Trimmed

Backlot Stunt Coaster: Trimmed at least in part

Beast: Trimmed

Reptar: Non-trimmed, but I'm surprized.

Beastie: Trimmed

Little Bills Giggle Coaster: Non trimmed, and that would be rather hard.

Flight Deck: Non-trimmed somehow.

Son of Beast: Trimmed

Invertigo: Trimmed (or at least the mechanism is there)

That's over half of the coasters trimmed.

4. I won't change my mind means I will not change my mind about hating trim brakes and thinking that many of them need to dissolve in a puddle of acid. Sorry, it was a little unclear the way I said it. If I find that there is a new trim brake capital of the world other than KI, I'll change that part of my mind and give the other park the trophy. At the moment, CP is working on it.

[Browntggrr]

^ So you really have no other experiences with other parks besides a CF park? Or for that matter no other big parks besides KI or CP. Of course you would believe that KI is the trim brake capital. I had the same belief once when it came down to theme parks. Until I was 15, KI was the best park in the World. Then I expanded my experience and went to BGE and found that I was dead wrong.

When it comes to trims, how do you know that it is the park that insists on the brake? Have you ever considered that it could be the manufactorer that determined the need?

What about older people that cannot handle the forces some coasters have? Sure Gemini at CP may have trims, but there are many other coasters at CP that will give you the thill you are looking for. Gemini is a big coaster for most people, and gives enough of a thrill to please the majority.

You have to remember, coasters are there for everyone's enjoyment, not just the enthusiast. If you want the enthusiast experience, go during an event. When the park is open to everyone, expect brakes so that the majority of people can ride.

Beast was a great coaster in 1979, even with the trims. And just like with the trims today, it is still a great coaster. If you don't like it, stay home. CF wants the majority of people to enjoy the park, not just the whining minority that can't get over themselves or their ideals.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

3. Doubtful. I understand that there are other parks that use trims, and quite a number, and I understand the need for them on a very rare occasion. While Cedar Fair hasn't added any to KI's coasters, I remind you that they have to their own, and I have yet to find other parks (even among the CF chain) that have over half of the coasters trimmed. Let's explore:

Firehawk: non-trimmed

Flight of Fear: Trimmed

Vortex: Trimmed

Racer: Trimmed

Backlot Stunt Coaster: Trimmed at least in part

Beast: Trimmed

Reptar: Non-trimmed, but I'm surprized.

Beastie: Trimmed

Little Bills Giggle Coaster: Non trimmed, and that would be rather hard.

Flight Deck: Non-trimmed somehow.

Son of Beast: Trimmed

Invertigo: Trimmed (or at least the mechanism is there)

That's over half of the coasters trimmed.

FoF, Vortex, and SOB do not have trim brakes. They are mid-course brakes used to help keep the trains spaced apart and to stop the trains when needed. Invertigos looping brakes are there for safety reasons. Please know what your talking about before you start posting.

[Coasterkidman]

Can't we all just get along?!

Dare-to-Fly and Brownttgr: This fighting is annoying, and in the end there will be no winner. And I really do not enjoy scrolling through dozens of posts, where the only point to it is to condradict the others opinions. Please, either stop or take it to PMs.

Moderators: This entire topic has become a constant argument between someone and someone else, and really nothing is being proved or discussed with meaning. The first page and a half was imformative on trim brakes, why they were there and how they worked, but it has gotten to the point where the second is being fought over to no end, and verbal insults have resulted. Please, do something.

[AZ Kinda Guy]

Facts are being presented. Some people just choose to ignore them...

[Browntggrr]

Dare-to-Fly and Brownttgr: This fighting is annoying, and in the end there will be no winner. And I really do not enjoy scrolling through dozens of posts, where the only point to it is to condradict the others opinions. Please, either stop or take it to PMs.

While I do understand what you are saying, some people need to understand that a park is not there for their own personal pleasure.

If parks would actually allow trims to be removed so that the force of the ride can always be felt, a majority of the people would hate the ride. For instance: you just came back from CP and experienced Magnum. The trims in the pretzel slow down the train enough so when you come to the bunny hops, the lap bar does not kill your thighs (more than it already does). For an enthusiast, we know where to lift up on the lap bar or know how to sit, for a non-enthusiast all they will remember is the pain the ride caused.

That is not the type of experience the parks want people to remember. If those people remember a bad ride experience, they very well could spend their money at another park. And less revenue for a park directly effects people like you and me either by higher ticket prices OR less fantastic trill rides (ironically the same thrill rides and enthusiast whines about).

There are enough enthusiast events to satisfy the hard-core fans. It is just that the enthusiast needs to remember that operating a park is a business, and if the majority of the guests are not happy, the park does not make money.

And then we all lose out.

[Cory Butcher]

Dare-to-Fly and Brownttgr: This fighting is annoying, and in the end there will be no winner. And I really do not enjoy scrolling through dozens of posts, where the only point to it is to condradict the others opinions. Please, either stop or take it to PMs.

While I do understand what you are saying, some people need to understand that a park is not there for their own personal pleasure.

If parks would actually allow trims to be removed so that the force of the ride can always be felt, a majority of the people would hate the ride. For instance: you just came back from CP and experienced Magnum. The trims in the pretzel slow down the train enough so when you come to the bunny hops, the lap bar does not kill your thighs (more than it already does). For an enthusiast, we know where to lift up on the lap bar or know how to sit, for a non-enthusiast all they will remember is the pain the ride caused.

That is not the type of experience the parks want people to remember. If those people remember a bad ride experience, they very well could spend their money at another park. And less revenue for a park directly effects people like you and me either by higher ticket prices OR less fantastic trill rides (ironically the same thrill rides and enthusiast whines about).

There are enough enthusiast events to satisfy the hard-core fans. It is just that the enthusiast needs to remember that operating a park is a business, and if the majority of the guests are not happy, the park does not make money.

And then we all lose out.

This is the single best post I have seen on here in a very, very long time! Logic is still alive and well! This almost makes me happy that I am starting to post again, (now if only it could fix the other bad portions of this year...grumble...grumble).

[DeLorean Rider]

Dare-to-Fly and Brownttgr: This fighting is annoying, and in the end there will be no winner. And I really do not enjoy scrolling through dozens of posts, where the only point to it is to condradict the others opinions. Please, either stop or take it to PMs.

While I do understand what you are saying, some people need to understand that a park is not there for their own personal pleasure.

If parks would actually allow trims to be removed so that the force of the ride can always be felt, a majority of the people would hate the ride. For instance: you just came back from CP and experienced Magnum. The trims in the pretzel slow down the train enough so when you come to the bunny hops, the lap bar does not kill your thighs (more than it already does). For an enthusiast, we know where to lift up on the lap bar or know how to sit, for a non-enthusiast all they will remember is the pain the ride caused.

That is not the type of experience the parks want people to remember. If those people remember a bad ride experience, they very well could spend their money at another park. And less revenue for a park directly effects people like you and me either by higher ticket prices OR less fantastic trill rides (ironically the same thrill rides and enthusiast whines about).

There are enough enthusiast events to satisfy the hard-core fans. It is just that the enthusiast needs to remember that operating a park is a business, and if the majority of the guests are not happy, the park does not make money.

And then we all lose out.

This is the single best post I have seen on here in a very, very long time! Logic is still alive and well! This almost makes me happy that I am starting to post again, (now if only it could fix the other bad portions of this year...grumble...grumble).

Agreed! I'm glad someone can be the voice of reason.

Often times people will check their common sense at the door when entering the park but please dont do the same when entering the forum.

[dare-to-fly]

FoF, Vortex, and SOB do not have trim brakes. They are mid-course brakes used to help keep the trains spaced apart and to stop the trains when needed.

Yes I know they are block brakes, however, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same, and my opinion is often that it needs three trains, as there is often a delay between train dispatch and unload. FOF and Vortex are the same. If it was just used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs over a simple term. I just go with how they are used, thank you.

By the way, most of the pain referred to in the above post comes from the lack of padding in the lap bars and seats. That's hardly a reason to dull down a ride. People generally have a good idea of what they are getting into when they get on a coaster.

The beauty of an amusement park is that those who aren't up to the big coasters will be able to appreciate the smaller, family coasters, ground rides, shows, food, shops, etc. Dulling down the ride for the grannies that might get on is hardly a valid point. I've never heard someone come back from a coaster ride and say "that was too fast, they need to slow it down." The grannies can ride the smaller coasters if they are not up to the big ones. Now, I say that, however I've seen quite a number of grannies willing to ride even SOB, even as rough as he sometimes gets in the first half the ride.(PS. Thanks for not trimming the first half.) It's amazing how gutsy some older people can be.

And another point I keep wanting to bring up and forget. When the first riders on The Beast, aka "the test dummies," decided for whatever reason that it needed trims, The Beast was the tallest and fastest. They weren't used to those kinds of forces and didn't know what to expect. They might have felt like it needed trims, when in this day and age, you can easily realize they are no big deal. Example, you cannot expect me to believe that if Millennium drops 300 feet at an 80 degree angle untrimmed (for now) that The Beast can't drop roughly a third of that at a 45. Don't like the steel example, well let's look at wood, how about SOB's drop that's (loosly) twice the size and at a 60. Don't even use roughness, as he doesn't get rough till the rose bowl. I don't buy it! Not the force issue. I'll buy the "we don't want to spend the money on maintenance" argument, but not force.

[Gordon Bombay]

FoF, Vortex, and SOB do not have trim brakes. They are mid-course brakes used to help keep the trains spaced apart and to stop the trains when needed.

However, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same. As is FOF and Vortex. If it was used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs.

How do they constitute trimming? They are block brakes designed to keep the trains in the particular blocks for safety reason. Who are you to say that the ride would be perfectly fine or a "better" ride if those mid course brakes, that you seem to consider trims, were not there. The ride was designed that way for a reason. The trims on other rides are there for a reason. Safety, maintenance, and reliability. How many times does that needed to be pointed out?

The former block brake of The Beast were skid brakes. You can't have it both ways. Either they can control the brakes or they can't. If they would have had to manually adjust the counterweights, it would not have been able to stop a train because it wouldn't have been able to adjust itself

Not sure which block brake you are talking about as The Beast has several sets of brakes that seperate its blocking system, however, I will assume you are talking about the brakes at the brake line. As pointed out in my earlier post; the brake line had always featured a skid friction brake that led into pneumatic pinch brakes that could be closed and used as part of the blocking system. There used to be feed motors on the side in the event a train was stopped there. In later years the feed motors were removed, the blocking system was changed and the only trimming there was done by the skid brakes and pneumatic pinch brakes. Currently there are only magnetic brakes there.

[dare-to-fly]

FoF, Vortex, and SOB do not have trim brakes. They are mid-course brakes used to help keep the trains spaced apart and to stop the trains when needed.

However, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same. As is FOF and Vortex. If it was used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs.

How do they constitute trimming? They are block brakes designed to keep the trains in the particular blocks for safety reason. Who are you to say that the ride would be perfectly fine or a "better" ride if those mid course brakes, that you seem to consider trims, were not there. The ride was designed that way for a reason. The trims on other rides are there for a reason. Safety, maintenance, and reliability. How many times does that needed to be pointed out?

The former block brake of The Beast were skid brakes. You can't have it both ways. Either they can control the brakes or they can't. If they would have had to manually adjust the counterweights, it would not have been able to stop a train because it wouldn't have been able to adjust itself

Not sure which block brake you are talking about as The Beast has several sets of brakes that seperate its blocking system, however, I will assume you are talking about the brakes at the brake line. As pointed out in my earlier post; the brake line had always featured a skid friction brake that led into pneumatic pinch brakes that could be closed and used as part of the blocking system. There used to be feed motors on the side in the event a train was stopped there. In later years the feed motors were removed, the blocking system was changed and the only trimming there was done by the skid brakes and pneumatic pinch brakes. Currently there are only magnetic brakes there.

...And they were able to put the extra brake fin where? And why would they not use the pp (what an interesting initial) brakes in the station if they were used out on the track somewhere? It doesn't make since. However, yes, that is the brake I'm referring to, and how well I know that The Beast has several sets of brakes.

I still maintain...oh my gosh I maintained something...that if maintenance was done properly there would be no need for trim overkill. I think you are missing my point. The only thing that I'm saying is the trims at KI, be them from trim brakes, mid-courses, or others, are being used to the point of overkill. That is my OPINION, is all! If you don't agree with me, fine. Regardless, I will positively not accept that it is the only way to run the park when there are so many that don't (even some in the CF chain which shall remain up in the air lest anyone from CF reads this and gets ideas).

As for how do I know, I've ridden Beast (IMO--not going there for this one), Son of Beast, Flight of Fear, and Vortex (somewhat) with much less trimming than is average now, and I've ridden The Racer, and The Beastie with no trims, and since those weren't original I don't see any point at all especially the one on Beastie. But I don't want to go there again either, find the old argument for Racer. It's on this forum somewhere. Either way, The less trims, the better the ride experience. They don't get rough beyond reason, and there is no valid reason IMO for the increase or addition of trims years after the ride opens (meaning Racer and Beastie for addition). You know as well as I do that Flight of Fear never used to stop at the mid-course, and they certainly have not added any trains or anything else for that matter, and turning the launch speed down is just icing on the cake.

Trim brakes on The Beastie, good grief!

[Gordon Bombay]

FoF, Vortex, and SOB do not have trim brakes. They are mid-course brakes used to help keep the trains spaced apart and to stop the trains when needed.

However, the way they are being used constitutes trimming. Even when SOB is back safely in the station, the mid-course is the same. As is FOF and Vortex. If it was used to stop the trains when needed, fine. That's an understandable issue. Now who's splitting hairs.

How do they constitute trimming? They are block brakes designed to keep the trains in the particular blocks for safety reason. Who are you to say that the ride would be perfectly fine or a "better" ride if those mid course brakes, that you seem to consider trims, were not there. The ride was designed that way for a reason. The trims on other rides are there for a reason. Safety, maintenance, and reliability. How many times does that needed to be pointed out?

The former block brake of The Beast were skid brakes. You can't have it both ways. Either they can control the brakes or they can't. If they would have had to manually adjust the counterweights, it would not have been able to stop a train because it wouldn't have been able to adjust itself

Not sure which block brake you are talking about as The Beast has several sets of brakes that seperate its blocking system, however, I will assume you are talking about the brakes at the brake line. As pointed out in my earlier post; the brake line had always featured a skid friction brake that led into pneumatic pinch brakes that could be closed and used as part of the blocking system. There used to be feed motors on the side in the event a train was stopped there. In later years the feed motors were removed, the blocking system was changed and the only trimming there was done by the skid brakes and pneumatic pinch brakes. Currently there are only magnetic brakes there.

...And they were able to put the extra brake fin where? And why would they not use the pp (what an interesting initial) brakes in the station if they were used out on the track somewhere? It doesn't make since. However, yes, that is the brake I'm referring to, and how well I know that The Beast has several sets of brakes.

The brake line (The "brake line" is the straightaway of track that is covered on top behind The Racer turnarounds and Action Theatre) featured a line of one friction "skid" brake (that was adjusted by counterweight) before a set of pneumatic pinch brakes at the very end where the feed motors once were, this is why it was able to be a block, because those brakes could close and hold a train whereas skid brakes only trim the train or slow it down. The Beast has always used the pneumatic fin brakes in the station, and had pneumatic brakes on the brake run or "bridge" before the station, preceeding these brakes was yet another skid brake that today has been replaced by a magnetic brake.

I still maintain...oh my gosh I maintained something...that if maintenance was done properly

But see, that is the point you are missing, being a coaster enthusiast does NOT make you an expert on coaster maintenance. The work done at KI is done properly by men who have experience in that field who have been working there for years, many since the parks opening, they're experts cause they have experience not because they carry a laminated coaster club card. The trim brakes allow for proper maintenance. If the ride just ran wild it would be a maintenance nightmare, have serious downtime, and be completely inefficent. The trim brakes keep the ride running in a consistent, thrilling manner that allows the maintenance teams to do their jobs successfully while keeping safety as their top priority, which has always been the top priority of Kings Island. Maintenance is done properly, and it is done everyday by individuals who are darn well versed in their profession, thats no opinion, thats a fact.

Regardless, I will positively not accept that it is the only way to run the park when there are so many that don't (even some in the CF chain which shall remain up in the air lest anyone from CF reads this and gets ideas).

Sure you are entitled to your opinion, this topic has provided great discussion between members here, but until you provide a better alternative to what you feel is overkill or have some experience in the industry to back up your ideas then it will certainly be hard to take your ideas on "overkill" and "proper maintenance" seriously.

[Browntggrr]

Trim brakes on The Beastie, good grief!

Wow, you just like to believe anything you want huh?

Nevermind facts, or practicle conclusions, sound reasoning, or that a ride that has been around before you were born actually may be operating the way it was intended to operate. Especially since the brakes you constantly whine about were in place 5 years before you were even around. Nevermind that Beast has been one of the best liked wooden coasters ever, or that the 2 big parks you have actually been to in your life have consistantly been the some of the most popular seasonal parks in the World. Yeah, what the hell do they know?

Do you honestly believe that in the intrests of making more money, the parks will basically do anything? So if the brakes you have been whining about made that much of a negative difference of people walking through the gates, the park would have removed them over 20 years ago?

Next you are going to tell us that no matter what, because you read it somewhere else, the earth is flat.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

Remember, just as you heard on the web that Beast is a great ride trimless, hear you can read about how the earth is flat!

So I really want to know, why do you believe that enthusiasts like yourself are more important than the "grannies" you have described?

And to clear some things up, it is no longer called "Beastie", yet, "Fairly Odd Coaster". And if you read the park's description:

This wooden roller coaster made especially for families takes guests on a whirlwind ride – it’s perfect for those who are anxious to try (but a little too small for) The Beast®!

What a shock! It has nothing to do with maintnance, and everything to do with the parks target audience- FAMILIES!

[The Beast Rider]

Yes, The Beast was one of the best liked wooden coasters ever, but where is it in the popularity charts now? Number 8 on the Golden Ticket last year? And what might I ask were the numbers 1-7? I believe that they are seven trimless coasters. I find that interesting.

Also, where would they have room on the bottom of the trains for skid brake and braking fins? That seems a little crowded to me.

The earth is flat? That's news to me. I'm sure that dare-to-fly knows better.\

As far as block brakes being used to trim a ride, it happens every day at KI. There is not a reason to slow the train to a crawl in the midcourse brake, if the other train is out of the way. If it stops the ride for safety reasons, that is one thing. All they are using them for is a trim brake. Yes, I said it too.

By the way, I have been around longer than The Beast, and I also predate the trim on Racer. I never really worried about The Beastie (which I know is now called FOC, which is also silly) but the trim there is also pointless. I have ridden The Beast without your famous trims, several times, even several times in one day. It has been a long time now, too long actually, but I believe the last time was around year 2000. The forces that the ride generates are tame, even untrimmed, compared to some of the bigger wooden coasters out there.

Also, in case you were wondering, I have been to parks and ridden coasters east of the Mississippi all the way from Canada to Florida, at many different parks than a Cedar Fair or even a Paramount park, and I still have never seen a park that has more coasters trimmed than CP or KI. Those are the two parks that completely overuse and overkill (there's that word again) on the trim brakes.