2012

[Dbfan]

Alright the guy apologized, lets stop complaining and get back on topic on what KI will get in 2012.

[Guest Millennium]

Tomb Raider: TR wasn't tiny compared to anything at CP. The ride cost what, 20 million dollars?

But when I hear Cedar Fair vs Paramount, I will always pick Paramount. Is BLSC the best coaster I've ridden? Absolutely not. Would I rather ride it all day than DB? Absoutely.

[Dbfan]

TR:TR was the best flat I had ever ridden. Too bad I only rode it 5 times before it was reduced.

[bkroz]

Tomb Raider: The Ride, even near the end of its days, was still the best themed ride in Midwest, hands down. Some might argue that it was easily the best themed ride at any seasonal amusement park in the United States...

It was honestly a gem. We were incredibly, incredibly lucky to have it. Love or hate the ride, it was one of a kind in a good way. I mean, really. Parks would kill for a ride that well done. I'm confident that, has Universal, Busch, or SeaWorld conceived of such a ride, the theme elements wouldn't have been reduced over time, either. The ride would today have much, if not all, of the themeing it had in 2002.

Today it is one of a kind in a bad way, and I tend to think that no one at CFHQ experienced the ride in its "glory days." If they had, they would've held onto it, and channeled money into its success. Tomb Raider: The Ride could've been a roadside attraction - one where you pay $5 a pop to ride it. Firehawk could not. Diamondback could not. They lack the immersion, intensity, and experience that made Tomb Raider so successful, so unique, and so special. People would pay $5 for fog, rolling doors, pre-shows, ambient music, a themed queue, and movie props culminating in a mysterious enormous flipping ride filled with water, lights, music, lasers, and fog. But $5 for a single ride on a minute and a half long coaster? Think again.

Even today, the ride could support billboards along the highway. "Solved the mystery? What is Tomb Raider: The Ride? Find out, at Kings Island." Not many rides have marketability five or more years after their opening. Tomb Raider would.

[Cormaster]

I too loved Tomb Raider and thought it was absolutely amazing and provided thrills that could rival any roller coaster, as well as special effects that would make Universal Studios jealous. When you rode it you finally started to see where Parmount was wanting to go with there movie theming. It was finally something to make it feel like more of "universal studios midwest". It is a shame what CF had done to the ride. I mean I honestly won't even go near it. It simply is just a puke machine these days. IT spins you in the dark until you feel nauseous then the ride's over. It went from being the best ride in the park to the absolute worst!

I suggest to My wife once "why don't they go grab a license for Uncharted: drake's fortune and re-theme it to that?"

[LongliveKingsCobra]

Wasn't Kings Island one of the reasons why Ceader Fair showed intrest in buying the Paramount Parks?

[The Interpreter]

According to Mr. Kinzel, Kings Island was THE reason he wanted to buy Paramount Parks. By all accounts, he tried to buy ONLY Kings Island, but CBS said "all or nothing." $1.24 billion later, Dick Kinzel & Co. had Kings Island.

[LongliveKingsCobra]

I wanted to say a big reason, but I wasn't sure if I was right.

[The Interpreter]

Nowadays, I bet Mr. Kinzel sometimes wonders if he was right!

Nah, it's Dick Kinzel. I doubt he is even capable of any self-doubt. We could ask Mr. Falfas!

[Coney Islander]

Holiday World's woodies aren't savored by most people like enthusiast do. It's obvious. From lunch until the park closes everyone is at Splashin Safari. The Voyage gave the park national attention, and until that diminishes why build another coaster? (whether or not you consider Wildabeast a coaster is a different topic)

Their past two additions have been major water rides. Their attendance is up, and it's been going up without the addition of any new wooden coasters. It's up because the place is a better value, and because they are noted for having one the best waterparks around.

My father and I enjoyed Holiday World very much. Next year, we're planning on bringing along: my mom, my sister, two grandparents, one uncle, one aunt, and two cousins. Likely, we won't even visit the water park...

Also, Holiday World's recent spike in attendance can be attributed to Kentucky Kingdom's closure. Holiday World's gradual rise can be attributed to many people's willingness to return.

Edit: Post fixed.

[Guest Millennium]

Obviously I know nothing about this subject, but Carowinds, Kings Dominion, Canadas Wonderland, and of course Kings Island all seem like profitable parks. And we all know about Great America...

[bkroz]

Absolutely! Though probably not to the extent that Paramount wanted, all of the former Paramount Parks were profitable at their time of purchase*, and the fact that in-park spending was up in those five parks is what Dick Kinzel used to justify the outrageous price tag, claiming that, within only a few seasons, the increased per-caps would start to pay for the parks*. Then, of course, Cedar Fair decided to introduce their legacy park's in-park pricing. And where has in-park spending gone since? South*.

But the Paramount Parks were all profitable. I tend to think that, if Cedar Fair came to the point that they needed to sell off half of their parks, most of the Paramount Parks would remain. Parks like Worlds of Fun, Dorney Park, Valleyfair (and, at one time, Geauga Lake) are smaller, locally-oriented parks. That's all they were intended to be, so that's okay. But still, they'd probably be the first to go. Meanwhile, Kings Island & Canada's Wonderland are the #3 and #1 most visited seasonal parks in North America at last notice. And Kings Dominion certainly can't be far behind. And Carowinds is a nicely-sized park with a brand new addition, so why let go of that?

And I have maintained from day one that the former Paramount Parks are simply more marketable. Show a commercial with a ride like Backlot Stunt Coaster, Kings Dominion's Crypt, Flight of Fear... That's gonna get people interested. They can ride a tall, fast roller coaster at any number of parks in their region. But one with flames? A spaceship? Water fountains? Music? Kings Dominion's Crypt looks a whole lot better to a consumer than Worlds of Fun's Thunderhawk... Same ride? Yep. But which would you want in a commercial, or brochure, or trip report for your park? How many people stand outside Thunderhawk just to watch it, hear the music, and feel the flames?

* Learned from The Interpreter.

[Guest Millennium]

In 2009, the four most visited CF parks were, in order: Knotts Berry Farm, Canadas Wonderland, Kings Island, and Cedar Point. All 4 came ahead of any park in the Six Flags chain. Something to think about.

If CF were to lose three parks, I think Valleyfair!, MiA, and CGA would be on the chopping block. Sorry for getting OT.

[Cormaster]

So yeah now that we're on the subject...

Who here wouldn't mind if Cedar Fair skipped a couple years of new attraction's in favor of bringing theme back? I for one say "aye!". Seriously though its not like Paramound parks were the end all to end all theme, because they were lacking in comparison to say Busch Garden Parks...but man they were a 100 times better than what Cedar Fair has to offer! I do miss the paramount era. I miss "Top Gun", "Drop Zone", and "Face Off". I miss action theatre showing "days of thunder". I miss the movie music. I miss "Tomb Raider The RIde". I miss Bubba Gump Shrimp Shack. I miss seeing Star Trek Characters walking around the park. And the whole "Planet Snoopy" is weak in comparison to the world's best Children Area, Nickelodeon Universe!

I'd say overall yeah the park was better under Paramount than Cedar Fair at this point. Yeah CF gave us Diamondback, and Firehawk... but they took the "soul" out of the park. Who else misses "Paramount's Kings Island" like I do? I really thought Paramount themeing and Kings Island went as well together as "peas and carrots" as Forrest Gump would say.

But of course its a catch 22 because from what I've heard, Flight of Fear would be gone had Paramount not sold the park...grr...argh! I swear I hate the business politics involved in my favorite amusement park. I think if I had my actual "Choice" in all of it, I'd say I'd rather Paramount not of bought them ,and KECO still own them!

ON that note though I will say I'm not saying Paramount were the best owners... nor am I saying they were better than Cedar Fair currently is... but I definitely think Paramount themeing fit Kings Island better than anything else!

I still have a hard time saying "who would I rather own the park". Because I think Cedar Fair is really trying to return Kings Island to its golden age, however its hard to deny how much the theming was under paramount! But I guess that's what happens when a big amusment chain wants one park and gets 5!

[UnrealNightmare]

Several misconceptions here:

* Parks don't care what any particular person wants (unless that person owns or controls the chain or park). They look at demographics being targeted and figure out what is needed to satisfy those demographics. Once you know what demographics are being targeted and a bit about the park/chain's philosophy, you can more easily predict future additions...but also take into account macro factors like the economy, company debt levels, etc.

* New woodies don't make sense? Tell that to Worlds of Fun. Tell that to Six Flags St Louis. Tell that to Kemah Boardwalk. Most especially tell that to Holiday World. Tell me what their signature steel coaster additions have been!

* Longer woodie than Beast? Many American enthusiasts tend to forget about China. And how China is putting in rides to target its market. There is more to the world than North America.

* Wooden coasters are boring and only go up and down hills? There is more to wooden coasters than can be found at Cedar Point and Kings Island. Far, far more. Even if the local to this site's riders' world has expanded to as far as Holiday World, there is a huge variety of wooden coaster experiences, many of them glass smooth, waiting to be savored...

Some here who think wooden coasters are boring probably haven't even ridden Tornado at Stricker's Grove, for crying out loud!

There is more in life than one's own experiences...and not everyone thinks the same as one does. Many make the mistake of thinking what they like is what everyone likes. I have often thought this is one of Dick Kinzel's biggest misconceptions...that along with a very unfortunate tendency to refuse to hear or tolerate dissent of any kind...

Well said.. My top 3 coasters are woodies..

[bkroz]

So yeah now that we're on the subject...

Who here wouldn't mind if Cedar Fair skipped a couple years of new attraction's in favor of bringing theme back? I for one say "aye!". Seriously though its not like Paramound parks were the end all to end all theme, because they were lacking in comparison to say Busch Garden Parks...but man they were a 100 times better than what Cedar Fair has to offer! I do miss the paramount era. I miss "Top Gun", "Drop Zone", and "Face Off". I miss action theatre showing "days of thunder". I miss the movie music. I miss "Tomb Raider The RIde". I miss Bubba Gump Shrimp Shack. I miss seeing Star Trek Characters walking around the park. And the whole "Planet Snoopy" is weak in comparison to the world's best Children Area, Nickelodeon Universe!

I'd say overall yeah the park was better under Paramount than Cedar Fair at this point. Yeah CF gave us Diamondback, and Firehawk... but they took the "soul" out of the park. Who else misses "Paramount's Kings Island" like I do? I really thought Paramount themeing and Kings Island went as well together as "peas and carrots" as Forrest Gump would say.

But of course its a catch 22 because from what I've heard, Flight of Fear would be gone had Paramount not sold the park...grr...argh! I swear I hate the business politics involved in my favorite amusement park. I think if I had my actual "Choice" in all of it, I'd say I'd rather Paramount not of bought them ,and KECO still own them!

ON that note though I will say I'm not saying Paramount were the best owners... nor am I saying they were better than Cedar Fair currently is... but I definitely think Paramount themeing fit Kings Island better than anything else!

Who else misses Paramount? I do. But it could very well be because that is all I knew. There are those here who absolutely positively despised Paramount (and in most cases, by that they mean CBS) for what they did to ruin Taft's (and later, KECO's) Kings Island. I can really only dream of a Kings Island where Festhaus and Oktoberfest had genuine German food, music, dancers, drinks, and costumes, or where Rivertown was actually a water-themed area (as its name implies), but I grew plenty content with the Kings Island that had a mismatched, but still isolated Rivertown, and a bustling "action backlot" area with the world's tallest, fastest rides of their kind.

And when it comes to movie themes, I loved the names. And in most cases, that's all they were were names. "Top Gun" or "Flight Deck" could be called "Dalmation: The Ride" and it wouldn't change the ride experience at all. But there's something to be said for riding a ride that's even losely themed to a movie you've seen. And the truth is, most people have probably never heard of the movie FACE/OFF or Drop Zone, and those who had probably didn't even correlate them to the rides of the same name. They were just really cool names for rides. FACE/OFF on a face-to-face coaster? That's just fun. And so is Drop Zone. It's dramatic, and it's fun to say. And one of the major problems, as I said, with the Cedar Fair "re"-theme (more like a de-theme) is that they didn't bother to come up with new themes. They simply made the old themes generic.

What really required our suspended coaster to retain a name relating to airplanes? Are there any concrete references to airplanes on the ride? No. Why couldn't it be painted sea-blue and renamed "Seahawk" or something like that? But instead, they took the idea of "Top Gun" and tried to make a generic name to replace it. What that creates, then, is a customer base who does not say "Oh, this is Seahawk and it feels like you're a bird," but instead says "This used to be Top Gun." That "used to be" is killer. "The Drop Tower" will always be "Drop Zone," because that's what kids learn it as from their brothers and sisters and parents. It's really no different than if Paramount has bought Cedar Fair and renamed Millennium Force into "Cloverfield: The Ride." No matter what the sign said, it would always be "Millennium Force," just as Kings Island will always have "Drop Zone."

Sadly, I don't think the other Paramount Parks feel our pain. With the exception of the Backlot Stunt Coaster, none of the other parks had any major de-themes other than "in-name-only" stuff. We were the only ones with Tomb Raider: The Ride. And as I said, that is probably the most shameful thing to happen to a ride that I've ever seen in my short life. Truly.

And recall that Paramount gave Cedar Fair the option of continuing to use movie names within the parks. Was it free? Oh no, it was not. For the right price, Cedar Fair probably could have sold it as a "partnership" or "merging" with Paramount, and re-branded all of their parks with Paramount merchandise and movie names (and given a heaping chunk of dough each year to Paramount to retain those rights). They chose not to. They also chose to eliminate most of the higher-ups in charge at the Paramount Parks. And I believe that Paramount Parks Creative (or whatever their equivalent was) was among the first to go without replacement. After all, you try to convince me that a group of people sat down together and Flight Deck was the honest-to-God best they could come up with? I don't buy it.

[Cormaster]

So yeah now that we're on the subject...

Who here wouldn't mind if Cedar Fair skipped a couple years of new attraction's in favor of bringing theme back? I for one say "aye!". Seriously though its not like Paramound parks were the end all to end all theme, because they were lacking in comparison to say Busch Garden Parks...but man they were a 100 times better than what Cedar Fair has to offer! I do miss the paramount era. I miss "Top Gun", "Drop Zone", and "Face Off". I miss action theatre showing "days of thunder". I miss the movie music. I miss "Tomb Raider The RIde". I miss Bubba Gump Shrimp Shack. I miss seeing Star Trek Characters walking around the park. And the whole "Planet Snoopy" is weak in comparison to the world's best Children Area, Nickelodeon Universe!

I'd say overall yeah the park was better under Paramount than Cedar Fair at this point. Yeah CF gave us Diamondback, and Firehawk... but they took the "soul" out of the park. Who else misses "Paramount's Kings Island" like I do? I really thought Paramount themeing and Kings Island went as well together as "peas and carrots" as Forrest Gump would say.

But of course its a catch 22 because from what I've heard, Flight of Fear would be gone had Paramount not sold the park...grr...argh! I swear I hate the business politics involved in my favorite amusement park. I think if I had my actual "Choice" in all of it, I'd say I'd rather Paramount not of bought them ,and KECO still own them!

ON that note though I will say I'm not saying Paramount were the best owners... nor am I saying they were better than Cedar Fair currently is... but I definitely think Paramount themeing fit Kings Island better than anything else!

Who else misses Paramount? I do. But it could very well be because that is all I knew. There are those here who absolutely positively despised Paramount (and in most cases, by that they mean CBS) for what they did to ruin Taft's (and later, KECO's) Kings Island. I can really only dream of a Kings Island where Festhaus and Oktoberfest had genuine German food, music, dancers, drinks, and costumes, or where Rivertown was actually a water-themed area (as its name implies), but I grew plenty content with the Kings Island that had a mismatched, but still isolated Rivertown, and a bustling "action backlot" area with the world's tallest, fastest rides of their kind.

And when it comes to movie themes, I loved the names. And in most cases, that's all they were were names. "Top Gun" or "Flight Deck" could be called "Dalmation: The Ride" and it wouldn't change the ride experience at all. But there's something to be said for riding a ride that's even losely themed to a movie you've seen. And the truth is, most people have probably never heard of the movie FACE/OFF or Drop Zone, and those who had probably didn't even correlate them to the rides of the same name. They were just really cool names for rides. FACE/OFF on a face-to-face coaster? That's just fun. And so is Drop Zone. It's dramatic, and it's fun to say. And one of the major problems, as I said, with the Cedar Fair "re"-theme (more like a de-theme) is that they didn't bother to come up with new themes. They simply made the old themes generic.

What really required our suspended coaster to retain a name relating to airplanes? Are there any concrete references to airplanes on the ride? No. Why couldn't it be painted sea-blue and renamed "Seahawk" or something like that? But instead, they took the idea of "Top Gun" and tried to make a generic name to replace it. What that creates, then, is a customer base who does not say "Oh, this is Seahawk and it feels like you're a bird," but instead says "This used to be Top Gun." That "used to be" is killer. "The Drop Tower" will always be "Drop Zone," because that's what kids learn it as from their brothers and sisters and parents. It's really no different than if Paramount has bought Cedar Fair and renamed Millennium Force into "Cloverfield: The Ride." No matter what the sign said, it would always be "Millennium Force," just as Kings Island will always have "Drop Zone."

Sadly, I don't think the other Paramount Parks feel our pain. With the exception of the Backlot Stunt Coaster, none of the other parks had any major de-themes other than "in-name-only" stuff. We were the only ones with Tomb Raider: The Ride. And as I said, that is probably the most shameful thing to happen to a ride that I've ever seen in my short life. Truly.

And recall that Paramount gave Cedar Fair the option of continuing to use movie names within the parks. Was it free? Oh no, it was not. For the right price, Cedar Fair probably could have sold it as a "partnership" or "merging" with Paramount, and re-branded all of their parks with Paramount merchandise and movie names (and given a heaping chunk of dough each year to Paramount to retain those rights). They chose not to. They also chose to eliminate most of the higher-ups in charge at the Paramount Parks. And I believe that Paramount Parks Creative (or whatever their equivalent was) was among the first to go without replacement. After all, you try to convince me that a group of people sat down together and Flight Deck was the honest-to-God best they could come up with? I don't buy it.

GYK did I ever mention you were one of my favorite posters on this board? I don't think I ever did. I know we don't always have the same opinions but your posts are very very VERY well thought out and are a joy to read!

Doesn't have much to do with this topic, but I thought I'd throw a compliment your way because I have to admit I actually LOOK forward to seeing your reply at times!

on topic: I really didn't get the rename of "drop zone" or "face/off". Face Off was an excellent movie, Drop Zone sucked. Either way they were just names, and the rides had no theming involved with either movie so I didn't get why they had to change. "Drop Zone" made sense because well thats what it did, it dropped you. "Face Off" made sense because everyone who rode faced eachother. And yet they keep the name "Congo falls" which we all know very well was retehemd from Amazon falls due to a movie yet Cedar Fair says "well Congo's a country in africa".. How is the loosley named Face Off and Drop Zone any different?

I do agree with you on the retheming how generic it is. "Flight deck" has to be the worst name ever. It really is a generic rip off of Top Gun. Its my understanding the coaster was being built under KECO in the middle of the Paramount purchase, and the original name was "Thunder Run". Why didn't they just call it Thunder Run then?

And one thing about TR:TR is Tomb Raider is a MOVIE based off a video game. Your teling me Cedar Fair couldn't of just gotten a cheaper liscense of Eidos Interactive? IF they couldn't' like I said how about rethemeing it to "Uncharted: the ride"? Both Uncharted: Drake's Fortune, and Uncharted 2: Among Theives are a exclusive PS3 Titles that very much take a lot from the Tomb Raider games, but they are still awesome and would make for a great alternative theme to TR;TR!

[bkroz]

Haha well thank you kindly! I like to think that I earn my post count around here! And then I think to myself that maybe I should split my posts up into "average sized" posts and see how my count doubles or triples. I just have a lot of opinion and I like to get them out! And I'm glad I have some people on here who actually appreciate hearing my thoughts, incorrect or petty as they may be!

[Cormaster]

Hey no problem man. I wish I could be as thoughtful, but I tend to more often than not spit out what I'm thinking at the time than actually thinking about what I"m posting.

[The Interpreter]

In 2009, the four most visited CF parks were, in order: Knotts Berry Farm, Canadas Wonderland, Kings Island, and Cedar Point. All 4 came ahead of any park in the Six Flags chain. Something to think about.

If CF were to lose three parks, I think Valleyfair!, MiA, and CGA would be on the chopping block. Sorry for getting OT.

Since neither chain releases individual park attendance figures, I strongly suspect those figures are not correct. Not even close.

I've never believed Six Flags guesstimates published in industry publications since Mr. Story left the building...

http://www.KICentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2015&view=findpost&p=24065

Now, seven years later, go to Six Flags Great America on any given day...go to Six Flags Great Adventure. Look at the parking lot. Count the cars. Look at the park. Compare to, say, Cedar Point or Canada's Wonderland. Are the former parks really less busy than the latter? As long as total attendance figures and revenue are correct, the Government couldn't care less if one fudges internal park attendance figures. Where do those publications get their estimates anyway? Who tells them? Does the teller even know? Does the teller have other motives if they do?

...And I believe that Paramount Parks Creative (or whatever their equivalent was) was among the first to go without replacement....

You cannot blame Cedar Fair for that one. It was gone before they got to Kings Island...

[CoastersRZ]

Yep. That was a casualty of the CBS ownership days. And the correct terminology was Paramount Parks Design and Entertainment (PPDE).

[flightoffear1996]

I loved Paramount under the Viacom operation but as soon as CBS got there hands on it I couldn't wait for a sale to go through.

[The Interpreter]

Neither could CBS!

As bad as they were, I actually think Carl Lindner was worse....at least CBS sold all of its interests to the buyer (or tried to, Cedar Fair didn't want the interest in Great Wolf Lodge). Carl Linder both did great damage to the park AND retained much of its property when he sold the park itself.

[Guest Millennium]

In 2009, the four most visited CF parks were, in order: Knotts Berry Farm, Canadas Wonderland, Kings Island, and Cedar Point. All 4 came ahead of any park in the Six Flags chain. Something to think about.

If CF were to lose three parks, I think Valleyfair!, MiA, and CGA would be on the chopping block. Sorry for getting OT.

Since neither chain releases individual park attendance figures, I strongly suspect those figures are not correct. Not even close.

I've never believed Six Flags guesstimates published in industry publications since Mr. Story left the building...

http://www.KICentral...indpost&p=24065

Now, seven years later, go to Six Flags Great America on any given day...go to Six Flags Great Adventure. Look at the parking lot. Count the cars. Look at the park. Compare to, say, Cedar Point or Canada's Wonderland. Are the former parks really less busy than the latter? As long as total attendance figures and revenue are correct, the Government couldn't care less if one fudges internal park attendance figures. Where do those publications get their estimates anyway? Who tells them? Does the teller even know? Does the teller have other motives if they do?

...And I believe that Paramount Parks Creative (or whatever their equivalent was) was among the first to go without replacement....

You cannot blame Cedar Fair for that one. It was gone before they got to Kings Island...

2009 Theme Index PDF

I have no idea if this is reliable, but I doubt it was just made up.

[bkroz]

Estimates. Most large park chains don't release their internal attendance records. For quite a few years, Busch (now SeaWorld Parks) has had nothing but negativity to say about the attendance reported for their parks, calling the figures "wrong across the board."

[Guest Millennium]

Like I said at first, I couldn't know less on this subject.

I would love a Gerstlauer(sp?) Euro Fighter at KI in the next few years. Mystery Mine has obviously been a huge success, and I think it is something that isn't too scary for the little ones, but still thrilling enough for the coaster freaks. But the one thing that makes Mystery Mine amazing in my opinion is the theming. I doubt CF would spend all the money Dollywood did on Mystery Mine.

I'd love to see any kind of coaster from Intamin, KI doesn't have even one yet! Maybe a Mega Lite? Sounds unlikely but I would love it.

[XGatorHead 8904]

But $5 for a single ride on a minute and a half long coaster? Think again.

I recently paid $4.75 for a single ride on Boardwalk Bullet.

Gator, just sayin'

[jdawg1998]

Now since we're getting a new ride next year I doubt we'll get one in 2012. That's how Kings Island rolls. We never get rides two years in a row. Or do we?

[BeastForever]

TRTR opened in 2002 and then a year later Delirium. In 99 Faceoff and Drop Zone opened and then a year later SOB opened. So It might be possible for a new coaster in 2012! Let's hope!

[XGatorHead 8904]

^Yes, but those were the Paramount years. We've so far had a very small window of time to see how CF will work. I do hope for a nice new big addition for the park's 40th anniversary though.