The Son of Beast Discussion Thread

[shark6495]

Shaggy

Well put.... yea I didnt really take offense to your post because I enjoyed the ride but feel it is more shame than fame for the park right now. I was just using your post as a reason to respond. Too many people on here throw around ideas that either A. cost too much money/or live in a fantasy world where it can be done, or B. people assume they know whats going on at the park. I agreed with your initial post 222% but I just am not a fan when people throw out words like " As soon as they factor costs for it's removal into an annual budget, it will be demolished." This statement may be true but we do not know yet.......

Thats all I was trying to say, just doing my best to help keep people a bit honest in a crazy world....

[shark6495]

Shaggy is one of the most intelligent and wise members on this board, and for the most part when he speaks I at least, listen. I trust what he has to say as a pretty smart statement, and to question him would be something no one who have been on this board a while would do.

really?

So just because I am new to this board, I am not allowed to question his thinking? or the fact that he said the fate is sealed on this ride? Beast I am sorry I have not spent a little less than 20% of my life on these boards, but as an intelligent human being with my own brain and my own thoughts I am allowed to post a questioning statement. I think Shaggy would even agree with me that I was not attacking but merely saying that he, like the rest of us, just do not know yet.... I have always respected Shaggy's opinion (because usually its one of the most constant and down to earth/realistic opinions on these boards. Beastie, no offense, but its called an adult conversation when two sides can discuss an opinion and such. No need to attack anyone in the backwards "to question him....."

[Shaggy]

No need to explain...

I am enjoying the discussion... these are the types of threads I truly enjoy. A post can be read 5 different ways, with 5 different tones. I certainly didn't mean to sound condescending in my posts. I take little offense to other's disagreeing with my opinions as long as it's not a personal slap.

Fact is, I would LOVE it if SOB could finally be turned into the ride it should have been. But I think that chance is nill.

Than again, if someone said to me, at this point "John, you have the option of either having SOB redesigned, or using that capitol for a bevvy of other additions to KI, which do you choose?" My answer would be... "Get Bolliger and Mabillard on the phone."

[shark6495]

Than again, if someone said to me, at this point "John, you have the option of either having SOB redesigned, or using that capitol for a bevvy of other additions to KI, which do you choose?" My answer would be... "Get Bolliger and Mabillard on the phone."

the execs may say "John you have the option of either having SOB redesigned with new trains, or using the capitol to buy music licensing for the park" lol

[Beast1979]

really?

So just because I am new to this board, I am not allowed to question his thinking? or the fact that he said the fate is sealed on this ride? Beast I am sorry I have not spent a little less than 20% of my life on these boards, but as an intelligent human being with my own brain and my own thoughts I am allowed to post a questioning statement. I think Shaggy would even agree with me that I was not attacking but merely saying that he, like the rest of us, just do not know yet.... I have always respected Shaggy's opinion (because usually its one of the most constant and down to earth/realistic opinions on these boards. Beastie, no offense, but its called an adult conversation when two sides can discuss an opinion and such. No need to attack anyone in the backwards "to question him....."

Not at all, I am just saying that for future reference that you should know what kind of credibility Shaggy has.

[Shaggy]

Than again, if someone said to me, at this point "John, you have the option of either having SOB redesigned, or using that capitol for a bevvy of other additions to KI, which do you choose?" My answer would be... "Get Bolliger and Mabillard on the phone."

the execs may say "John you have the option of either having SOB redesigned with new trains, or using the capitol to buy music licensing for the park" lol

Tough choice... I'd probably have to go with the recent theme in this thread...

Shaggy ;-)

[bkroz]

However, if I were calling the shots... I'd put it out of it's misery. The legend and notoriety will always exist with SOB. It's been one of the most talked about coasters ever built.

...

But the fact is, it's now an embarassment to the park.

To quote Coldplay's "Lost!", "You might be a big fish in a little pond, doesn't mean you've won, 'cause along may come a bigger one." Son of Beast does have quite a reputation... Among Kings Island enthusiasts. I'd argue that, sure, a lot of the public around the Cincinnati area knows of it's infamy. However, I have traveled to Cedar Point, Geauga Lake, Kings Dominion, and more and gotten into conversations with quite a few people while waiting in lines and have brought up Son of Beast's closure, to which the reply is more often than not, "What is Son of Beast?" And yes, that is followed closely by "What is The Beast?"

Son of Beast has notoriety and is one of the most-talked-about-coasters among enthusiasts and those who are obsessive enough to look up wooden coaster rankings on (pardon me, but) nerdy websites and blogs. But in the actual scope of things, if you look at all of the fish in the "bigger pond," it's not well-known. Not for better or worse. And before this whole mess happened, we laughed about the fact that the general public would often point to Son of Beast and exclaim "Whoa, look at The Beast! It's huge!" or discuss their disbelief that "The Son of Beast is all back in the woods and with all those tunnels!" We laughed about them saying that. Now we have to decide: Were they calling The Beast crap, or calling Son of Beast incredible and timeless? If The Beast and Son of Beast are so easily confused by the general public, even by those who frequent the park, then they must not be polar opposites, good and evil, fantastic and a bust, in the eyes of the public as we once thought.

I'm not arguing for or against its removal. Simply that the majority of the public DIDN'T get off saying "That was absolutely the worst experience I've ever had period." "I hated every second of it." "What a bust!" "Werner Stengel sure screwed that one up!" "I wish GCI made it, instead." "I feel like the new trains a bit less comfortable then the Premier ones." No. The general public got off of it going "Well it sure was rough, but not beyond what I expected from a 200+ foot tall wooden roller coaster." They know nothing of who manufactured it, who designed it, who could've done it better, etc.

In conclusion, I beg of you to consider that Son of Beast is only synonymous with "biggest mistake of all time" amid enthusiasts, and even then, not all of them. The general public never expected smoothness from it, and never received it. Are there incredible flaws in the design? Absolutely, I don't think anyone would argue against that. But we needn't try to convince ourselves and others that the entire world knows of the horrendous, vile Son of Beast and that there's absolutely no way to ever bring light to anything with the name "Beast" other than the original again. It's just not true. We sit behind our computer screens and curse it while the general public rides it, finds it to be about what they expected, and then either likes it or dislikes it. Enthusiasts are the only ones with vendettas against it, and I hope it follows that most people outside of the Cincinnati area who visit parks for fun and not for excruciating analysis haven't heard of it, and couldn't care less.

I hope they find a way to make it into something that everyone can enjoy. They certainly have a lot to work with... I say bring in Intamin to create a looping woody plug-n-play. And I just bet that if they did that, and named it "Son of Beast: The Revenge," the lines would stretch to Timberwolf.

[shark6495]

Not at all, I am just saying that for future reference that you should know what kind of credibility Shaggy has.

well then thank you for educating me..... I have only been visiting this site since about my freshman year of college which was in 2004.... I joined the site as a member this past summer..... but thank you for the information.....

wow shaggy really Madonna?

[Shaggy]

LOL, I'm quite varied in my musical tastes. I also spent my teens in the 1980s, so I can't help it. ;-)

Shaggy

[CedarPointer]

"Well it sure was rough, but not beyond what I expected from a 200+ foot tall wooden roller coaster."[/b]

You really underestimate the GP. Most people I've talked to thought it was horrible. Do you really think that most of the GP correlate height with roughness? I'd expect a rollercoaster not to injure me...

[shark6495]

cederpointer has a point.... I rode Griffin in Virginia and my thoughts were as such: This ride is going to scare the bejesus out of me, this ride will be fun, this ride looks great....... not once did i think man this ride is going to jerk me from side to side and tear me apart (which it didnt, but it did scare the bejesus out of me.) I feel that the GP along with "enthusiasts," as we are now calling the population who knows about roller coasters, look at a roller coaster and never once think man that ride will be very rough. You may look at a ride and think its made of wood so its not going to be as smooth as other rides in the park, but you never think man this ride is going to destroy my insides like a shake machine on high at a UDF..........

People who rode Flight of Fear never thought there ears would hurt in the ride, similar to the reactions of people who ride Vortex, but with your post one could say "well what do they expect from over the shoulder restraints".....

[CedarPointer]

In fact, here are some paraphrased comments I've heard at school while wearing my SoB shirt:

"I hate that ride!"

"Did you actually ride that? It hurt my neck!"

"I heard they're tearing that down because it hurts so much."

"Do you really like that ride? I won't ride it, it's so rough."

[Beast1979]

While we as enthusiasts know better then too associate height, ride type, and so on with roughness, the fact is that the general public has the incorrect prejeduice about them because of their lack of knowledge on the subject.

And, the general public sadly makes up nearly all of the park's ticket sales, so if the gp has a misconception about a ride, then your in a bit of fix.

[The Interpreter]

The general public has a misconception about Son of Beast? What might that be? That it is open? That it still has a loop? That it is somehow a coaster just like Beast?

[McSalsa]

OK, to add to this already freakishly long discussion (it's longer than all of KI's coasters combined two times over!!! ), I have dug up several reviews of Son of Beast:

http://www.coastergrotto.com/reviews/param...ings-island.jsp

Coastergrotto's Kings Island page. Includes Son of Beast, which is rated at a 7.4 average based on 322 votes thus far. (According to this, Diamondback is by far the best coaster in the park at a 9.5 average)

http://www.coastergrotto.com/review.jsp?argId=137

The coastergrotto moderator also reviewed Son of Beast back when it had the loop. He gave it a 7/10 overall.

http://www.themeparkcritic.com/Scripts/Vie...aspx?RideID=169

A bunch of riders review SOB here. The average rating is 3.5 out of 5...or 7/10 once more when converted.

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/reviews/ki...d/son_of_beast/

85 people have rated Son of Beast on this web site, and it averages...a 7/10. I think I see a pattern...

That's just what I could dig up. Hope this helps give you the "general idea" of what people think of Son of Beast. It seems to get a 7/10 rating from "the entire group" overall. Too bad my "rate SOB" poll got destroyed, or I would give you a link to look at that as well. It was more of the same though (a 7/10 average YET AGAIN!?!?).

[Browntggrr]

In conclusion, I beg of you to consider that Son of Beast is only synonymous with "biggest mistake of all time" amid enthusiasts, and even then, not all of them.

Ok, if it's not SoB, given the time, effort and money, what do you believe would be considered "the biggest mistake of all time" as far as coasters go?

Not that I don't agree with you, just looking for your opinion.

[Tomkatt7]

I just want to throw this out there, and leave it up for debate.

it has been mentioned several times that the ride has a reputation.

Is that a bad thing?

I mean, of course I don't speak for everyone, but a lot of the people I overhear at the park talking about it, mention the hundreds of people that have been killed on it, or the thousands of law suits that have been filed, or how your next ride may be your last The thing is though, there seems to be a sense of excitement while they're talking. Like the danger of riding is what makes it exciting.

I can't help but think of the skeletons, and any news is good news mentality that the park took about it.

Maybe if the ride can be fixed, and be safe in the parks opinion, then the fact that is "dangerous" may bring serious thrill seekers in to the park to ride it. Some will avoid it, but they are the ones that would come in anyways, and just not ride it.

Just a thought.

[Browntggrr]

I really think everyone needs to consider:

Does the cost justify the experience?

And not just the cost of re-re-engineering or re-tracking. I am just talking about the normal everyday, wear & tear maintenance.

Once you answer that question, now add in the bigger changes that need to be made.

When I bought my first car (used), it got me from point "a" to point "b". At first it was reliable, then after a few years it started to cost me more money for maintenance. And even though I would put money into it, it still was unreliable. It came to a point where either I kept pouring money into it, and have negative results; or just buy a new one which was more reliable, and had a set cost/ month and everytime I went to start it, she turned over. No worries.

[shark6495]

OK, to add to this already freakishly long discussion (it's longer than all of KI's coasters combined two times over!!! ), I have dug up several reviews of Son of Beast:

http://www.coastergrotto.com/reviews/param...ings-island.jsp

Coastergrotto's Kings Island page. Includes Son of Beast, which is rated at a 7.4 average based on 322 votes thus far. (According to this, Diamondback is by far the best coaster in the park at a 9.5 average)

http://www.coastergrotto.com/review.jsp?argId=137

The coastergrotto moderator also reviewed Son of Beast back when it had the loop. He gave it a 7/10 overall.

http://www.themeparkcritic.com/Scripts/Vie...aspx?RideID=169

A bunch of riders review SOB here. The average rating is 3.5 out of 5...or 7/10 once more when converted.

http://www.themeparkinsider.com/reviews/ki...d/son_of_beast/

85 people have rated Son of Beast on this web site, and it averages...a 7/10. I think I see a pattern...

That's just what I could dig up. Hope this helps give you the "general idea" of what people think of Son of Beast. It seems to get a 7/10 rating from "the entire group" overall. Too bad my "rate SOB" poll got destroyed, or I would give you a link to look at that as well. It was more of the same though (a 7/10 average YET AGAIN!?!?).

McSalsa thanks for looking up the polls online but as a person who has had to dissect many, many, many polls over the last few years you should take the polls with about as much believability as people saying "I heard a guy get off the ride saying how rough it is." The reason being, is the entire general population does not go home and find a website to vote on their favorite roller coasters. The same issue one made about the fact that only "enthusiasts" are on here, I would argue the same about the polls you used. To use the first poll, the ride is still described as with loop, and the reviewer last reviewed the ride in 2002, prior to many changes SOB would have happen to it over the years. Only 322 people have used this website to review the ride, which takes into account other parts of the ride, including que lines and landscaping. A larger population used on this review would make it more reliable. 322 people over 9 years means they polled 35 people per year (if only 35 people went all year, I feel more people voted in the earlier years) which is less than 1 hour of operation for that ride.

Now the themeparkcritic website to have a more true to sense of what the GP thinks it shows a more recent review of the ride, but with that being said only 100 people have reviewed SOB.

Again I would feel these reviews would be more "true to the GP" if it was reviewed by a few thousand people. Again though McSalsa great job of taking the time and energy to fine the review web sites.......

[CedarPointer]

If you stood outside of SoB's exit when the ride was still in operation and polled guests as they were getting off, you would certainly not hear a lot of 7's...

[The Interpreter]

I am not saying the following is the case, but you need to consider something else as well. Even if the average guest thinks a ride is superb, the duck's pajamas and loves it dearly, if even 10 percent of the guests think the ride is so bad they would never, ever come to your park again and actually think less of the comfort level and even safety of the park and tell all their friends, the company where they work and the company decides to move its group business elsewhere, something would have to be done. Depending on the park company and the park's target customer demographics, this could matter if the ride's detesters only amounted to 1 percent, or even a few less. And, if even only 1 out of every 100,000 riders filed a lawsuit after riding the ride each year, that also would be a factor.

Again, these are only hypotheticals for the purpose of this discussion, but what an average guest thinks doesn't matter much if the outliers affect your cost of doing business, your reputation, your business focus, what other customers think of you and your business, your insurance rates, your reputation with state regulators and on and on and on.

[McSalsa]

I am not saying the following is the case, but you need to consider something else as well. Even if the average guest thinks a ride is superb, the duck's pajamas and loves it dearly, if even 10 percent of the guests think the ride is so bad they would never, ever come to your park again and actually think less of the comfort level and even safety of the park and tell all their friends, the company where they work and the company decides to move its group business elsewhere, something would have to be done. Depending on the park company and the park's target customer demographics, this could matter if the ride's detesters only amounted to 1 percent, or even a few less. And, if even only 1 out of every 100,000 riders filed a lawsuit after riding the ride each year, that also would be a factor.

Again, these are only hypotheticals for the purpose of this discussion, but what an average guest thinks doesn't matter much if the outliers affect your cost of doing business, your reputation, your business focus, what other customers think of you and your business, your insurance rates, your reputation with state regulators and on and on and on.

True...man, I geuss it's true then, a few bad apples can sour the entire bunch. Or in this case, a few(relativley speaking) angry coaster enthusiats can bring down the world's tallest wooden roller coaster. You need a "satisfaction rating" of at least 80% to be safe in this industry and even then, you can't satisfy everyone. I have heard people slam even some of the best roller coasters (Examples: Millie, Maggie, Diamondback, Beast, Voyage, etc etc...yes even they get slammed sometimes)

I was just trying to shine some light on how most people feel about Son of Beast. I also should note it could be most of those ratings could have been from before 2006, when the ride had a loop. Before that, I don't recall hardly anyone hating on Son of Beast. It even showed up on a TV show I remeber seeing as the #2 wooden roller coaster on Earth (Hint: #1 was at the same park back in the woods. You get invisible funnel cake if you guess which one it is!) in 2004. Then came the '06 accident and...wham.

[The Interpreter]

Some things:

Coaster enthusiasts hardly even matter as a factor. They are a small, if vocal, minority. It isn't the cries of coaster enthusiasts that move most parks to do or not do things (with Holiday World being an exception to an extent).

Son of Beast had many people who did not care for it long before the 2006 incident. Again, I think your focus is far too narrow...it's not just coaster enthusiasts that matter to a park. In fact, they matter far, far less than you or most enthusiasts think.

Also, please don't make the mistake of thinking everyone who posts here is a coaster enthusiast. Not the case. Some once were. Some never were. Some are park enthusiasts (there is a huge difference), industry enthusiasts, employed by the industry or allied industry, other types of professionals, and yes, and you need to remember this, some are enemies of this industry and are reading to find what they can to use for their own, sometimes nefarious, purposes.

[McSalsa]

While on the topic of Son of Beast, it should be noted that it may still not be all gloom & doom, and I'm not 100% certain the ride will be torn down. Yes, Hercules was torn down, but what about Mean Streak @ Cedar Point? It has a lot of the same problems Son of Beast does (save injuries, but it's only a matter of time before MS has one if it's as rough as I have heard it is...). Son of Beast could still redeem itself. Might take a few years after an overhaul, but it can be done. (Though I am sure even if it does, enthusiasts will talk about how SOB went through 3 "forms" before they got it right. V1 was with the loop, V2 is current, and V3 could be coming...or not.)

[McSalsa]

Some things:

Coaster enthusiasts hardly even matter as a factor. They are a small, if vocal, minority. It isn't the cries of coaster enthusiasts that move most parks to do or not do things (with Holiday World being an exception to an extent).

Son of Beast had many people who did not care for it long before the 2006 incident. Again, I think your focus is far too narrow...it's not just coaster enthusiasts that matter to a park. In fact, they matter far, far less than you or most enthusiasts think.

Also, please don't make the mistake of thinking everyone who posts here is a coaster enthusiast. Not the case. Some once were. Some never were. Some are park enthusiasts (there is a huge difference), industry enthusiasts, employed by the industry or allied industry, other types of professionals, and yes, and you need to remember this, some are enemies of this industry and are reading to find what they can to use for their own, sometimes nefarious, purposes.

Again, true. Perhaps it was just the accident "briging Son of Beast's problems into the limelight". And I sure hope the industry's enimies are not reading this page...or are they? Or am I one of them? BWA HA HA HA!!!

DA DA DUM!!!

(Just kidding! I am NOT an enemy of the amusement park industry!)

[The Interpreter]

Who on earth considered Steel Phantom garbage? You rode it?

In fact, those same polls you cite showed it doing very well...especially compared to some coasters being discussed here. Top 10? No. Garbage? No way. You way overstate your case. Sigh.

[McSalsa]

Who on earth considered Steel Phantom garbage? You rode it?

In fact, those same polls you cite showed it doing very well...especially compared to some coasters being discussed here. Top 10? No. Garbage? No way. You way overstate your case. Sigh.

I was talking about its reputation before it became Phantom's Revenge...when it had loops. I never rode it then, nor have I rode its current form. Wait(looks this up), on coastergotto:

Steel Phantom rating, based on 106 votes: 7.1 (about average)

Phantom's Revenge, based on 207 votes: 8.8 (Beast has the same rating...)

I stand corrected. It may not have been "garbage", but they did improve it. At least, according to the polls. Hopefully if they do re-open Son of Beast, it improves just as much...or more.

Sorry about that. Ignore my previous comments on Steel Phantom. Though just the concept scares me a little (a 200+ foot arrow mega looper!?!? Vortex is big enough!)

Update: Deleted comment above on the Phantom.

Update 2: While we improve Son of Beast, let's improve every ride in the park! Paint Racer and revive recar! Install those inverted-coaster style trains on Flight Deck and paint it too! Fix up AE! No more trims on Beast...wait, now I'm just dreaming...

PS: Thanks Terpy for correcting me on these things. I am still a noob...

[Browntggrr]

Then you have Phantom's Revenge @ Kennywood. It's considered one of the best roller coasters on Earth (well, a top 10 at least) and was once considered "garbage" back when it was Steel Phantom.

Where did you get that idea that SP was once considered "garbage"?

Sure, it suffered in it's age as many Arrow loopers have, but "garbage"? I would like to see some facts to back that statement up, because right now, you are sounding exactly like those people that shark 6495 brought up that you dissected into nothing.

[McSalsa]

Then you have Phantom's Revenge @ Kennywood. It's considered one of the best roller coasters on Earth (well, a top 10 at least) and was once considered "garbage" back when it was Steel Phantom.

Where did you get that idea that SP was once considered "garbage"?

Sure, it suffered in it's age as many Arrow loopers have, but "garbage"? I would like to see some facts to back that statement up, because right now, you are sounding exactly like those people that shark 6495 brought up that you dissected into nothing.

I was just thinking that because they overhauled it (massivley) into Phantom's Revenge and removed all the loops/inversions. Terpy has already corrected me. Sorry bout that, it was just me being foolish.

I need to ride at least 20 more roller coasters before I start commenting on these things...I think. Good news is, a Cedar Point trip may be in the works for 2010. I have my fingers crossed.

PS: What's the record for "longest topic in KIC history"? Because I think we broke it...

[dakota2112]

While we as enthusiasts know better then too associate height, ride type, and so on with roughness, the fact is that the general public has the incorrect prejeduice about them because of their lack of knowledge on the subject.

And, the general public sadly makes up nearly all of the park's ticket sales, so if the gp has a misconception about a ride, then your in a bit of fix.

That's a little pretentious, isn't it?