Coaster Enthusiasts

[PKI Homey]

Has anyone else noticed that many of the accidents occurring this year have been from so called "enthusiasts" who disregard safety rules? I have heard that many will undo their seatblelts or try to have the lap bars not come down on them as close as everyone else, all for the sake of "better airtime". Am I alone or does anyone else see the stupidity in doing these types of things. I just read over at coasterbuzz that Holiday World was not to be found at fault in the death of a woman whom not only undid her seatbelt, but attempted to stand during a drop. To me, this is the most ludacrist thing I've ever heard. And now, these parks are considering cutting out coaster enthusiast events and exclusive ride time. I would hope that none of the people on this site has ever done this or considered doing this. I, myself am an enthusiast, but always check my own seatbelt and lap bar even after the ride ops check it just to make sure I'm not going to fly out of these crazy contraptions. I guess what I'm saying is that we are not engineers, nor designers, nor any kind of an amusement safety personnel, so why would you put your life at risk over something silly. Plus, other "non-enthusiasts" see what you're doing and will probably follow suit, thinking it's O.K. to behave like this. Anyway, I just wanted to get your opinions and now I'll get off my soapbox. Above all, Ride Safely, these parks would like to see you come back and not become another statistic. Peace...

[SOB_TOM]

The sad part is that it is specifically written in the bylaws of ACE that you MUST follow all park rules at ALL times. Seems to me that ACE needs to rethink whom should be renewed or not.

[LongLiveTheSmurfRide]

Actually, Holiday World has announced that they've cut all enthusiast activities for 2004 because of the increasing number of problems with riders and ignoring the rules of the park. It's a shame too. Too often enthusiasts think that since they visit a park a million times a year and ride the coasters over and over, that they somehow have an understanding of how the ride works and can play with the rules and still be safe. That girl who died at Holiday World seemed to think that way, and it's too bad that something like that had to happen to open up peoples eyes to how important it is to follow the rules. I went to Cedar Point over the weekend and found that the ride ops were much more prone to stapling the lap bars and checking that seat belts were connected than I'd ever witnessed before. Seems that everyone is trying to make the most of that deadly warning.

[JIMMY JAMZ]

I have to agree with you on that one.

That said. The measures that PKI takes in checking and making sure that everyones lap bars, belts are properly fasten really impressed me this summer.(that being the first time there) and is probably one of the reasons I decided to come back and bring my kids there.

They seem very concerned with patrons safety.

My hats off to all the ride opperators and teams for all there hard work.

A thankless job but without them we wouldn't be riding at all.

[PKI Homey]

Correct, the employees do check very well, but somehow, someone manages to get around these checks. Maybe they lift their legs up higher so the lap bar doesn't come down as far. I did have one crazy experience though. I was on SOB and when we went up the second hill, my seatbelt came undone. I was riding with a friend and was flipping out, then struggled through the helix to get it buckled again. Come to think of it, I never brought that to anyone's attention(workers) and probably should have.

[LongLiveTheSmurfRide]

Maybe you got a part of your shirt caught in it when you buckled it and that made it come undone or something. I'd think that if it was a faulty buckle, more people would eventually have that problem and it would get fixed. I hope so anyway.

Edited January 1, 1970 by LongLiveTheSmurfRide

[coasterrz]

Unless something changed since I visited a couple weeks ago, Son of Beast does not have a seat belt. It has the large and bulky lapbars but no seat belt that I`m aware of. The only coaster at PKI that I know have seatbelts are Face Off, Flight of Fear, and The Beastie. Of course there are seatbelts on Drop Zone, Delirium, Tomb Raider and the Scrambler as well as on the Flying Eagles.

[PKIDelirium]

your SOB belt? what belt? if your BAR came undone, thats trouble.

[PKI Homey]

You know, come to think of it, I can't really remember what coaster it was. Thought for sure it was SOB. Could have been one at Cedar Point...just can't remember.

[SOB_TOM]

It couldnt have been SOB for one simple reason: its a racheting lapbar. The only way to undo the bars (besides the pedal in the back) is to go under the cars, hit the release mechanism.

Oh and next time, do bring it up to the employees. Thats a really good idea.

[fryler87]

in the topic of safety and in addition to the seatbelts that parks install on some/most/all rides, there are two major seatbelt types i know of.

there's the old-school car seat belt type which i think are ok, but they don't seem to be as safe as the new ones.

the new ones are black, almost triangular shaped, buckles and have two latches on the sides of the buckle. these i find are much more difficult to unbuckle...which IS a good thing in most cases.

[Mr. Fusion]

Speaking of seatbelts, is it weird that I feel much safer riding coasters and rides with a lap bar / harness and a seatbelt?

I totally fine with lap bars and I know they're safe but when theres a seatbelt, this little void in the back of my mind goes away and the ride is great.

Edited January 1, 1970 by fusiondude09

[PKI Homey]

I also agree that lap bars and seatbelts make me feel safer. It really shows that the park is concerned with my safety as I'm sure that they would like to see me come back for many more visits. I was reading on another site that many older coasters do not even have lap bars, only seatbelts. It was stated that one at Kennywood has only a little bar in front of you to grab on to. Now that seems scary to me.

[Darren Mullins]

Folks, I hate to have to say this, but the problem with enthusiasts is far greater than what many of us think it is. Unfortunately, I think the parks are getting tired of enthusiasts going into the parks, disobeying the rules and then expecting the parks to sign the deed to the property over to the enthusiasts. PKI gives ACE members a daily walk back to The Beast. Let's hope this treat isn't taken away.

[PKI Homey]

Which brings me to my next point. I consider myself to be a coaster enthusiast, but I'll be dam**d if I want to be classified with these people. Now, I feel like I am the exception to the rule that I am an enthusiast and obey all park general and safety rules. To me, it would be an embarassment to be categorized with these so called "enthusiasts". I'll get off my soapbox now....Peace

[JIMMY JAMZ]

I agree with you on that.I consider myself an enthusiast.(I don't belong to any club or anything)But I also value my life a little too much to disobey the rules.Obviously they put these lap bars /seatbelt on these rides for a reason.If someone is stupid enough not to follow the rules and the person gets injured or killed then hey....They deserve it.

Its just so unfortunate that automatically they or there family want to sue the park for there own stupidity.

Like I tell my kids" I don't take you to the hospital for stupidity"

[BoddaH1994]

If someone is stupid enough not to follow the rules and the person gets injured or killed then hey....They deserve it.

I second that notion.

Also, I just think it's a shame that a handful of bad eggs in a large group of enthusiasts give them a bad rep.

[Coasterfan]

I'm just going to step in here and say one thing. I've been going to King Island all my life, I've been riding The Beast since I was 8, I'm now 17 and I can say that I have never rode with the lapbar on my legs after the first year of riding it. There is no way you can "fly out" of The Beast unless you jump out. We have our bars loose enough so that we can get out legs out if we have to(or want to). Ever been to LeSourdsville Lake? The Screachin' Eagle, voted as the coaster with the most airtime in the world. There is less restraints than there are on The Beastie! I don't know why coater clubs have turned around but they used to be about airtime!

[Shaggy]

I am only chiming in here, because I feel this thread needs some clarifications.

Although I post as Shaggy, my actual name is John Keeter and I am the ACE Regional Rep for Indiana, KY and West Virginia. That covers parks including Holiday World.

I was present on the evening of Stark Raven Mad at Holiday World, where Tamar Fellner was killed while riding Raven. I have not (or will not) discuss details the specific incident out of respect for the park and those involved in the horrible tragedy.

But I do want to want to clarify a few things....

First...

Miss Fellner had only been an ACE member for a very short period of time, and SRM was her first formal coaster riding event. When the tragedy occurred, it was not during the actual ERT, or Stark Raven Mad ride time... it was at the close of the normal operating day, on a train full of regular park guests and occurred before the exclusive enthusiast evening ride sessions began. This is important only because it emphasizes that her actions were not indicative of any actions being taken by enthusiasts around her, or on the ride with her. They were independant actions she undertook herself.

Second...

The original poster said that "Many of the accidents occuring this year have been from so-called enthusiasts." Completely untrue. I only know of one accident - the Holiday World incident - where an enthusiast was involved. Unfortunately there have been several incidents/accidents at parks this year... but these were not at all enthusiast related. A few examples:

A female non-enthuiast died on PKI's Top Gun from a heart attack

A female non-enthusiast choked to death on a piece of gum on Raging Bull at SFGAM

A female non-enthusiast suffered a heart attack on Hulk at IOA

A a male non-enthusiast died when the front car on Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad became seperated and derailed the train...

etc. etc. etc.

There have also been many instances this season where guests... not just enthusiasts.... have been caught unbuckling seat belts or taking pictures while riding. This is not a new problem. Parks have been dealing with this for many years. But an increase in such actions, as well as the death at HW, has sensitized many parks into watching for any possible troublemakers who may do so. The policing is a good thing and is a much needed precaution. But the point needs to be made that, although a few of those caught breaking rules have been "enthusiasts," many more of them were not.

"Enthusiasts" are a target group that parks can threaten or reprimand for the actions of a miniscule amount of their members. By comparison, normal guests who are not familiar with the safety rules and regulations of parks and coasters IMO need to be policed just as much. If not then they need to be policed even more so. Again, it is important to point out that these actions are not indicative of many enthusiasts. Most everyone I have talked to that belongs to ACE is angered and shocked by those that are members and have been caught breaking rules.

As a result of the growing concern over enthusiast groups, Holiday World and Cedar Fair have addressed the industry saying that events and ride sessions are in jepordy if attendees do not obey all rules and regulations. IMO that kind of statement goes without saying. However, the parks also need to recognize that this same principle should apply to all groups... not just enthusiasts. If I go to a picnic at HW with a church group or such, my group should be held just as accountable as an enthusiast group... and watched just as closely.

Third,

I do not agree with the mentality that "If a person is stupid enough to break the rules and get injured and killed, then they deserve it."

That kind of a statement not only de-sensitizes the pain that those involved, or in/around the victim feel, but it also thwarts any proactive solution. The fact of the matter is, the poor decision the individual makes hurts others just as much as it does themselves. I don't think Tamar Fellner deserved to die.... but I do feel that she made a very ignorant split second decision that has shocked, harmed, hurt and saddened many. Her friends, her fiance, her family, the Holiday World staff and fellow ACE members/"enthusiasts" have all been negatively impacted by this. She, unfortunately, paid the ultimate price. But I know that if we were all miraculously given the chance to reverse it, then every decent person I know would still want her around to enjoy coasters/parks and more importantly be with her family and friends.

Fourth,

It is up to clubs and organizations to educate and warn their members about the necessity of obeying rules. But it is also up to parks to educate their guests, but more importantly their staff that ultimately oversees and enforces these policies.

I worked at PKI for 2 seasons, and then worked at SFKK for one. The mentality I had to have as a ride op is that I had to "think" for the guests. Guests, not just enthusiasts, try all sorts of things. And to be quite honest, whether or not they had a membership to a coaster club I always had their overall safety in mind and enforced all policies and procedures. A ride is a nothing more than a big piece of machinery... and should be treated just as cautiously and respectfully.

Fifth,

These stern warnings should not be viewed as warnings exclusive to "enthusiasts" or ACE members only. They hold true for anyone. And anyone caught breaking rules will be dealt with accordingly and on an individual basis. So whether or not you consider/promote yourself as an "enthusiast" or ACE member, you must heed these warnings as a guest. Parks are coming down hard on those that ignore the warnings. Not only are they enforcing park banishments and season pass revokes, but also threatening and pursuing potential jail-time and lawsuits.

By addressing enthusiasts and the industry, HW and CF hoped to garner attention to the growing problem. They sure got everyone's attention, that is for sure. But I feel that the bigger picture was missed. The important message to take was that the industry (notably organizations such as ACE) must begin to emphasize the severity of such actions when undertaken by ANY guest, especially those that belong to an enthusiast club that has established codes of conduct.

My hope for all of this is that a very important lesson can be learned and that parks and enthusiasts can form a strong bond. A bond that will enable us all to ensure this will not, and cannot happen again. It is not the potential loss of ride sessions, ERT's or special events that I am concerned about... it is the overall misconception that rides are terribly dangerous and that parks have to start screeneing their guests prior to entering the park. Amusement parks are meant to be happy, fun, safe places... so it is up to each of us to help ensure that.

Finally,

Do not think that these warning only come on the heels of incidents such as loosening of restraints or inappropriate riding actions. Parks, and clubs such as ACE are also fed up with enthusiasts who present themselves or act in dispositional manners that are basically ridiculous and embarassing. There are those who threaten to disrupt events or park operations because of personal conflicts they have with other individuals that have nothing to do with the club or the parks. One such person who often acts in such an absud manner has even responded to this post. Again, these actions are not indicative of the club they may be affiliated with, but ultimately reflect very poorly on the numerous members who refrain from such childish, immature and nutso actions and threats.

Remember, that the example each of us (whether a guest or an enthusiast) set while not riding or at a park is just as important as the one we set when riding or at a park. There are lots of eyes on coaster and park message boards, and simple online statements can be seen as threatening and cause reprimands and bannings as well.

Bottom line, I challenge each and eveyone... including myself... to put the fun back in going back to any amusement park. The best way to do that is to ensure a positive and safe mentaility when we attend, and present ourselves in a proper manner.

As far as Paramount's Kings Island is concerned. PKI has had a rich, and wonderful relationship with enthusiasts over the years. I do not see that diminishing at all. So I think things like the walk-back will definitely continue. However, I do see a continued emphasis on park safety among all of it's guests. Those that act in poor manners will be dealt with appropriately and individually.

Shaggy

Edited January 1, 1970 by Shaggy

[PKI Homey]

Sorry John, I was not meaning to pick on any coaster clubs. OK, so the woman on the Raven incident was a new member. Was she not properly informed? By the club or HW? I was under the impression that they(enthusiast clubs) first and foremost told their members to always obey all safety rules. Not that that would stop certain people from doing these kinds of things. But, it only takes one incident for people to start scrutinizing and pointing fingers. It goes back to something that you probably heard from your first grade teacher...It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch. Personally, I do not think that anyone deserves to die and cannot back anyone who says so.

[TheRickster]

ace coaster rules require members to follow all park rules all the time.

[BoddaH1994]

A female non-enthuiast died on PKI's Top Gun from a heart attack

A female non-enthusiast choked to death on a piece of gum on Raging Bull at SFGAM

A female non-enthusiast suffered a heart attack on Hulk at IOA

A a male non-enthusiast died when the front car on Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad became seperated and derailed the train...

etc. etc. etc.

The things listed above were freak accidents and had nothing to do with the topic of enthusiast groups being known as rule breakers.

Secondly, if you're a grown adult and your mom tells you not to touch the stove because it's hot and you do it anyway, you still deserve to get burnt. We're not desensitizing anything by the notion. It's kind of like "live by the gun, die by the gun" it equates to "if you choose to be an idiot, you're going to die doing something stupid."

I understand your point that when someone dies on a ride it's an unfortunate thing and it affects many more people than the one who lost their lives. The point really is that if someone is going to do something stupid, you can't entrirely be sympathetic towards the individual. The incidents listed above are the exception. Some people loose their lives because of odd circumstances or freak accidents. But in any of the cases which you have listed above, was anyone doing anything out of the ordinary?

There have been unfortunate incidents in the amusement industry, but when it all comes down, just live by this: If you play with fire, you might get burned; if you play with knives, you might get cut; if you stand up on a rollercoaster, you may fall to your death!

-Ryan

[JIMMY JAMZ]

OK so maybe what I said was a little harsh.

But...

We as people dont feel sorry for the drunk driver who goes out and kills himself."he deserved it" is the most common reply.

But if he goes out and kills a whole family then we all feel bad for the family.

and "he should have died for doing it"is the common reply.

Yes she made a bad decission and paid the ultimate price and given a second chance im sure she would rethink her decission.Just as the drunk driver would.

And yes I feel sorry for her family,friends,and the people who were unfortunate enough to be on the coaster at the same time the incident occured.and witnessed the terribe tragedy.

Im sure that the park made that statement bassed on all the investigations and lost money bad publicity ETC that it has caused.

To single out an enthusiast group based on one incident is not being very fair to the group.I'm sure that 98% of there members always obey the rules.Just as 98% of the general public obeys rules.

But as in life itself their are people who make bad decisions all the time.

If it were a perfect world with no bad decissions we would need no Armys,Police,government, rules ETC. OK enough said.

[beastbreakdown]

that was very well said

[Shaggy]

"The things listed above were freak accidents and had nothing to do with the topic of enthusiast groups being known as rule breakers."

You totally missed my point. The original poster stated that "Many of the accidents this year have been caused by enthusiasts." My pointing out those few occurances... whether accidents, or freak incidents, or whatever you wish to call them... did not happen at the hands of an enthusiast. Only ONE that I can think of happened because of the poor judgement of a person who was affiliated with an enthusiast group.

"The point really is that if someone is going to do something stupid, you can't entrirely be sympathetic towards the individual. "

Again, re-read my post. I am not "entirely sympathetic" to the victim. As a matter of fact, I think her actions were idiotic. However, I also am the type of person that does not wish ill on people . Again, I know how harmful this has been to all of those around her and those involved.

Do you really feel that if you were given the ability to reverse this tragedy, you would still choose this horrible outcome just because you feel she "deserves it?"

I wouldn't.

Shaggy

Edited January 1, 1970 by Shaggy

[PKI Homey]

I am beggining to agree with you, Shaggy. I did start off the post the wrong way. But, something was assumed here. And, that is that I was referring to only those who belong to coaster clubs. The thing is, before I ever heard of ACE or the Ohio Coaster Club, or any organization, I had heard of these people who were referring to themselves as enthusiasts, were undoing their seatbelts, trying to fool ride ops by adjusting their legs so the lap bars don't come down as far. I am an enthusiast myself but have no club affiliation. And, I think there are many more like me.

[JIMMY JAMZ]

This is in reply to PKI HOMEY from Oct.2

I live in Pittsburgh and Kennywood is the park I Grew up with and still frequent.

And yes they have 3 wooden coasters there and The Jack Rabbit has a bar in front of you and a belt that goes across both people in the car with 2 eyehook type things on the strap no seat dividers (doesn't really hold you in your seat at all) and that ride is somewhat scarry.It has a double dip in the middle that really gives you great air.Even better there height for it is only 36 inches.My daughter was 2 and a half years old the first time I took her on it(I didn't want to but she wanted to go on)She has no fear and here I was on the ride with my left leg over her legs my left arm over her shoulder Practically standing on the way down the double dip. Me I was somewhat scared meanwhile she loved it and wanted to ride it again.Shes 7 now and is adidcted to coasters her favorite being Top Gun and The Beast.

Even the Thunderbolt at Kennywood has a cheesy seatbelt no seat dividersand a bar in front of you.Yeah It does add to the thrill factor some.

[SOB/Gun Steve-O]

By comparison, normal guests who are not familiar with the safety rules and regulations of parks and coasters IMO need to be policed just as much.  If not then they need to be policed even more so.  

So true. As a ride operator, the most dangerous type of person in my opinion is not an enthusiast who has ridden the ride God only knows how many gazillions of times, but the parent who refuses to obey our height requirements and give me and other park staff excuses as to why their kid should be allowed to ride, even when others cannot, and will do almost anything to get that kid on the ride. It shocks me that many never even think about why we have saftey requirements in the first place.

Many people also do not seem to know about the intensity of the ride, despite the MANY warnings that are posted at enterances, and at SOB, the PA announcement that goes off automatically every few minutes. People still ask us if we think they are OK to ride, sometimes after waiting in line for more than an hour.

People do stupid stuff on these rides, too - everything from pulling out a cell phone or camera half-way up the lift to making out on the ride - all very dangerous things to do. Even if you haven't seen the rules, some level of common sense must prevail here. If you are holding a cell phone going at 70 mph and lose it, it could severely injure or possibly kill another rider. We don't want that. You don't want that. And I'm sure that the person sitting behind you doesn't want that.

Parks have saftey rules to keep you, the staff, and other guests safe and happy. Breaking them will get you nowhere - except possibly, a trip with a security guard.

And to anyone who cannot or will not realize that, I say

Edited January 1, 1970 by SOB/Gun Steve-O

[PKICoasterFreek]

I really think that is is sorta sad that some person can be called a coaster enthusiest when they try to do something insane......well she succeeded! Not only did she hurt the coaster world but she gave a perfectly good park a death record. NOT GOOD! She obviously wasn't a coaster enthusiest becuase if she was a coaster enthusiest she wouldn't be that stupid and try something that she would have known that it could have gotten herself killed, and once again she did kill herself!!

Sadly, yes she did get killed but still , people com'n don't be stupid, Riding coasters is previlage not a right,lol, and it is a battle that you don't even want to start, because G forces steal and wood aremost of the time stronger than a human body, and so is the ground, so JUST DON'T TRY SOMETHING STUPID...THE END!

[stewwill]

Like any other group, event, whatever, some people have a need to break the rules. They ruin an event for everyone. I can offer examples but you know who they are. I read the accident report and its plain that the woman that was killed at HW was just about standing up on Raven. It's tragic, a total waste of human life but remember, she choose this action. I am not saying she deserved to die, no way but when you make bad choces, bad things happen. Since she was associated with a coaster club, it's guilt by association. That's a darn shame but it happenes all the time. I am sure all parks are scared silly that some person will try to get one past a ride attendent and try something stupid. Coaster groups are the best word of mouth any theme park can have. I hope that all theme parks will step back, take a breath and let the clubs spread the word about following the rules. This is just a knee jerk reaction from some parks and it will pass. We have all winter for this to blow over and it will. I live near the ocean, I have been told many times, "Don't turn your back on the sea." I can't believe that anyone will see a 200 foot high coaster and decide to challenge it. You can't win.

Stewwill