Kings Island vs. Paramount's Kings Island

[marlfox_21]

Not to be confused with the BusCh administration, of course....

I know!

I hope that all the former Paramount Parks are to soon be under the BusCh Administration. <G>

AMEN

[Browntggrr]

Lets just remember that this is a pki FAN site, not a pki bashing site. If you really want to go bash KI go do it on some crappy six flags site and quit using our server space and bandwidth.

Yes, that makes sense.

#1 Some of the comments are true, even though most don't want to believe it.

#2 Why are people not entitled to their own opinion?

The topic is KI vs. PKI. Just the nature of the title is going to bring out some negativity either way.

[MarketingExpress]

Is everyone also forgeting that PKI was ranked the #1 seasonal theme park in the world in 2004? Obviously they did something right.

[RingMaster]

...and then ranked 15th in 2005? Or something like that, I don't remember. Can someone back that up before I can make it official?

[DevilMayChew]

PKI ranked 15th on the list and was the highest ranked seasonal theme park.

Annual Attendance Figures. PKI - 15

[The Interpreter]

Yeah. In 2oo4.

In 2oo5, PKI attendance declined, and PCWo became the world's most attended seasonal theme park, with PKI having that same status for the USA...

AB's attendance figures are estimates. There are many in and around the industry, including me, that doubt some of those estimates...but they are the best, non-biased source out there.

[Delirium_Guy]

Alright now calling PKI a parking lot is a little ridiculous. A parking lot is a Six Flags Park. Even Cedar Point is a Concrete Jungle in the park next to KI. If the park sucks so much woudlnt they be struggling attendance wise? If I can recall, they did pretty last year. As for BGW and having enough rides.... Yes they have four rollercoastesrs, a couple good flats and a couple good dark rides. Thats it though. Call me weird but I like alot of flat rides from carnival types to the newest ones. I can finish BGW in a few hours. Comparing 2 awesome and 2 alright Coasters to the 9 adult ones here isn't the same.

Actually, I'd take ANY of BGW's four major coasters to ANY of PKI's mediocre collection.....excluding FOF which is DEFINITELY a winner! That said, PKI's collection of flat rides is sub par. Delirium and Tomb Raider were much needed addition. I just visited BGW about 3 weeks ago. I find MORE there for me to do and keep my attention than at PKI. More flat rides, definitely. High caliber and quality of coaster, definitely. More heavily themed attractions, definitely. And, from all that has been whispered, last year was NOT a good year for the Park. There's a reason why shops on I-Street aren't opening until noon, some locations not opening at ALL this season, the late opening of the gates. Think about it. oh well, to each their own!

[Delirium_Guy]

CoastersRZ, I agree with you. But I still think, as I said before, that the other Paramount Parks have gotten more attention in the areas of groundskeeping, landscaping and maintaining the theming. Whether that was a corporate decision or local management decisions on how to spend the allotted budget, I don't know. But I do know that especially at Wonderland and Carowinds, the aesthetics of the parks are much better.

And I TOTALLY agree with you about the flats at Wonderland. If Kings Island is missing anything, it's a great collection of flat rides. There are theme parks with worse flat collections (Six Flags Over Georgia comes to mind), but there aren't many. For a long time, it seemed the park only removed flats. Delirium (if it can be called a flat!), was certainly a step in the right direction.

No question about it, hands down. Carowinds is far nicer than PKI in terms of landscaping. That was evident in ALL of my visits last season. See, they like to landscape AROUND the rides.....not throw down that lovely gravel underneath them (please see IJ and Avatar). I'm sorry, PKI is far from an attractive Park now. It started with Italian Job, hands down the UGLIEST ride I've seen, and it continues with the lack of landscaping in Nick Universe. Perhaps Nick Universe will change, one could hope as I think the whole area looks like it was rushed to completion.

[Mikewhy]

Maureen said during the Winter SOAR event that some landscaping in NU would come later, because their first priority was simply to get it opeartional in time for opoening day. I would think that some additional landscaping would be added later. At least I hope so.

[The Interpreter]

Let's assume that KI did have a very bad year last year (which I don't think to be the case). So, to make up for it now, they cut costs by cutting back on guest opportunties to spend money?

* No off season season-pass processing (the time the guest stands in line DURING THE SEASON is time that guest could have been inside the park spending money...during the off season, the guest would have spent a little bit of time that she could have been spending money, but that time and money would otherwise have gone to Macy's or something...not the park...and not much of that in any event).

* By not letting guests in the park before 10, up to another hour of time the guest could have been spending (ever hear of per caps?) is also forfeited. Also, the hour or so that many guests spend cooling their heels waiting for the park to open (and, in many cases, looking for a restroom they can get to) causes at least some guests to reconsider the next time they think of going to KI.

* By not opening shops until noon, yet up to two more hours of spending time is gone...and many season passholders, in particular, leave the park by noon.

* Closed food stands, games and merchandise locations further deprive the park of income making opportunities.

* If large numbers of rides are closed (perhaps due in part to reduced maintenance, reduced manitenance staffing, lack of a dry run day or other factors), some guests will leave the park earlier than usual and with them goes any spending they would otherwise have done the remainder of the day.

* Greatly increased drink prices, the unpairing of combos (fries no longer come with that, sir), increased food prices and what appears to be less staffing of the restaurants (and/or slow service as seen at Skyline on International Street) will drive more guests out of the park to eat (we have seen several posts by people here admitting that) or to coolers, again depriving the park of some per cap spending.

* Earlier closing times in summer also cuts back on per cap spending in two ways. First the guest is in the park fewer hours (though whether or not the guests in the park would spend more than the cost to keep the park open is questionable) and earlier closes may keep some guests from coming at all (it's too late to go now, they close in two hours and I am not going to take you to Kings Island when we would just turn around and have to leave right after we got there). It's the lost visits where this really hurts, if it does at all.

* To the extent all of the above frustrates at least some guests into not returning, yet more income is lost. Just in park income if the non-returner or less frequent returner is a season pass holder, but also admissions and parking revenue if the people who otherwise would have returned did not have passes but would have bought daily tickets.

Yes, in each of these cases, the park shows less expense. But, in my humble opinion, the revenue they give up far exceeds what they "saved." And guests who are frustrated by all this may not just keep this in mind this year. These types of things may enter into their decisions of whether to go to KI in future years. And guests do tell other prospective guests of their experiences...more so the negative ones than the positive ones, actually.

Think per caps aren't important? Why do you think the parks have "Bring A Friend Free" Days?

I can't see anything afoot here but an attempt to show lower costs to operate the parks. By the way, I saw the same reduced staffing at PKD that I did at PKI. I did not observe this situation as being that way at Carowinds. Perhaps buyers are ushered to Carowinds to observe the parks in operation. And perhaps once the buyers have bitten and agreed to sign the deal, the situation at PKI and PKD will improve and/or the situation at Carowinds will worsen until the deal is executed.

It is only my supposition, but I see a park chain that is getting out of the business and doing everything it can to make 2oo6 look to be a relatively low expense year for the parks.

[WooferBearATL]

Interpreter, why is it that you and I seem to be pointing out what should be the obvious?

Is it because there are so many people that are willing to sit back and accept mediocrity?

[MarketingExpress]

* By not letting guests in the park before 10, up to another hour of time the guest could have been spending (ever hear of per caps?) is also forfeited. Also, the hour or so that many guests spend cooling their heels waiting for the park to open (and, in many cases, looking for a restroom they can get to) causes at least some guests to reconsider the next time they think of going to KI.

* By not opening shops until noon, yet up to two more hours of spending time is gone...and many season passholders, in particular, leave the park by noon.

Im just going to hit on two of your points that you expressed. I believe that they measured how much people were buying in the morning and during that first hour that the gates were open before the ropes were dropped. The results were that most people didn't start to shop in the merch shops until the afternoon. Also they weren't making any moeny by being open that first hour. Why have 100 employees at these stores for an hour earning an hours wage if you aren't selling anything.

I personally like the idea of opening the gate at 10. I think it will cut down own a mass of people running through the park once the ropes were dropped and people tripping over each other. Not only is it a good idea froma business perspective, but also from a safety perspective.

[WooferBearATL]

Im just going to hit on two of your points that you expressed. I believe that they measured how much people were buying in the morning and during that first hour that the gates were open before the ropes were dropped. The results were that most people didn't start to shop in the merch shops until the afternoon. Also they weren't making any moeny by being open that first hour. Why have 100 employees at these stores for an hour earning an hours wage if you aren't selling anything.

Like Dry run day there is a purpose to having the park open at 9am. Once again Paramount has either tried to re-invent the wheel or to cut costs as any cost to the park. The morning hours allow the merch workers to stock and for the food service folk to prep for the day. It's more of a quiet time and allows for an increase in the ambiance and feel of the park. I'll tell you - when I was a Ice Cream Shoppe, opening was staffed as such: One person on International Sipper, One person in Ice Cream Shoppe, One Morning Person and One Supervisor prior to 9am. Then at 10am Popcorn Cart opened, a cashier foreman came in and another register opened in Ice Cream Shoppe. Then at 11am the swing shifts came in and everything went full open.

I personally like the idea of opening the gate at 10. I think it will cut down own a mass of people running through the park once the ropes were dropped and people tripping over each other. Not only is it a good idea froma business perspective, but also from a safety perspective.

How exactly is this good from a business standpoint?

[Browntggrr]

The results were that most people didn't start to shop in the merch shops until the afternoon. Also they weren't making any moeny by being open that first hour. Why have 100 employees at these stores for an hour earning an hours wage if you aren't selling anything.

They may not have been buying anything in the morning, but in the case of my family, we would browse the shops early, and buy the items on the way out at night. We didn't want to buy the item, bring it back to the car, and then go back into the park right when we first entered the park.

Being in business, the one thing I have learned is that the less the front door is open, the less money I am going to make.

[MarketingExpress]

Im just going to hit on two of your points that you expressed. I believe that they measured how much people were buying in the morning and during that first hour that the gates were open before the ropes were dropped. The results were that most people didn't start to shop in the merch shops until the afternoon. Also they weren't making any moeny by being open that first hour. Why have 100 employees at these stores for an hour earning an hours wage if you aren't selling anything.

Like Dry run day there is a purpose to having the park open at 9am. Once again Paramount has either tried to re-invent the wheel or to cut costs as any cost to the park. The morning hours allow the merch workers to stock and for the food service folk to prep for the day. It's more of a quiet time and allows for an increase in the ambiance and feel of the park. I'll tell you - when I was a Ice Cream Shoppe, opening was staffed as such: One person on International Sipper, One person in Ice Cream Shoppe, One Morning Person and One Supervisor prior to 9am. Then at 10am Popcorn Cart opened, a cashier foreman came in and another register opened in Ice Cream Shoppe. Then at 11am the swing shifts came in and everything went full open.

I personally like the idea of opening the gate at 10. I think it will cut down own a mass of people running through the park once the ropes were dropped and people tripping over each other. Not only is it a good idea froma business perspective, but also from a safety perspective.

How exactly is this good from a business standpoint?

No one said that you couldn't do your restocking and preparation in the morning. But it would make more sense to do it while your stand is closed, it would just be more efficient. You wouldn't need to pay someone to just stand at a register or stand in a store for an hour waiting on customers that will never come, or will rarely come. You need to think about this from a guest perspective also, do I really want to buy something right when I get to the park and have to carry it around all day, or spend money to rent out a locker?

As for your question that you asked, your not going to like my answer but it is the truth. From a business perspective by not opening the gates till 10 you cut down on the costs, mostly labor costs.

Think about all the people that need to be there for that extra hour. You need admissions people at the front gate, you need people in each Merch. stand, you need people out in the parking lot manning the auto gate and the trams. You will also need to have more security in the park to man every rope that is up, as well as patrol the parking lot for an extra hour, and International Street. While I am unsure if any of the food service places or carts are open, these are more people. If they did open, the food service associates would have to come in earlier to prep the food. Throw in the stroller rental, and wheel chair rental, plus Guest Relations personnel.

So yes from a business perspective I believe that this was a good idea, mainly because we were spending more money on labor during this hour and other expenses than people were spending during the same amount of time.

[WooferBearATL]

They may not have been buying anything in the morning, but in the case of my family, we would browse the shops early, and buy the items on the way out at night. We didn't want to buy the item, bring it back to the car, and then go back into the park right when we first entered the park.

Being in business, the one thing I have learned is that the less the front door is open, the less money I am going to make.

This is not a foreign concept to anyone that works or has worked in the Retail/Restaurant/Resale business.

[Browntggrr]

Where you save in labor for that additional hour, you lose in customer service.

This type of thinking is short term, not long term, and even though Paramount is selling the parks, the prospective buyer(s) will see this.

And quite honsetly, if Paramount is concerned about that one extra hour of labor costs that may, or may not be worth it; we are all better off that the park is being sold. What guest experiance is going to be cut next?

[WooferBearATL]

Where you save in labor for that additional hour, you lose in customer service.

This type of thinking is short term, not long term, and even though Paramount is selling the parks, the prospective buyer(s) will see this.

And quite honsetly, if Paramount is concerned about that one extra hour of labor costs that may, or may not be worth it; we are all better off that the park is being sold. What guest experiance is going to be cut next?

Appears that it's going to be basically all live entertainment.

I think that a lot on this board are very ride/coaster oriented and focus mainly on that aspect of the park.

It's really the small things that matter and make an impression with people that you will never see post on a board like this.

A theme park/amusment park is simply the entire experience rolled into one area. When you lose out on or cut back on the landscaping, entertainment, the games, the restaurants/food stands and shops you lose what has made the park special.

[jzarley]

Does anyone know if performers in PKI's live entertainment are Equity members?

[RingMaster]

I honestly do not understand why people complain about the lack of theming and detail in Kings Island, yet they want a theme park company that doesn't even theme their major rides and coasters (let alone upkeep the ones with a theme--Disaster Transport comes to mind) to buy up Paramount Parks.

I'd rather have Anheseur-Busch (sp?) or the guys behind Dollywood and Silver Dollar City buy at least Kings Island, if not the whole chain. At least then we'd have a theme park with nice/amazing coasters and groundbreaking flat rides with nice scenery and theming added to it.

[Carowinds2005]

I can't see anything afoot here but an attempt to show lower costs to operate the parks.  By the way, I saw the same reduced staffing at PKD that I did at PKI.  I did not observe this situation as being that way at Carowinds.  Perhaps buyers are ushered to Carowinds to observe the parks in operation.  And perhaps once the buyers have bitten and agreed to sign the deal, the situation at PKI and PKD will improve and/or the situation at Carowinds will worsen until the deal is executed. 

It is only my supposition, but I see a park chain that is getting out of the business and doing everything it can to make 2oo6 look to be a relatively low expense year for the parks.

Speaking of PC, PC has been operating without all these downsides due to the park being sold. As an example we are WAY overstaff on all our rides on the South Carolina side where you have to be atleast 16 but cant say that about the North Carolina side 18 is required there. But like for my rides Scooby Doo Haunted Mansion and White Water Falls we have 7 positions but we have 17 people assigned for these two rides. We have atleast 4 people on grounds and detail every hour because of the overstaffing, pretty much every ride also.

From what I have been told the VIPs from the companys that are buying the parks have been touring PC the last two weeks. And as of right now the touring of the park is over. The only thing that has affected us associates is that they are watching our hours. Because as I was told "a company with alot of over time is not good on paper".

[WooferBearATL]

I honestly do not understand why people complain about the lack of theming and detail in Kings Island, yet they want a theme park company that doesn't even theme their major rides and coasters (let alone upkeep the ones with a theme--Disaster Transport comes to mind) to buy up Paramount Parks.

I'd rather have Anheseur-Busch (sp?) or the guys behind Dollywood and Silver Dollar City buy at least Kings Island, if not the whole chain. At least then we'd have a theme park with nice/amazing coasters and groundbreaking flat rides with nice scenery and theming added to it.

I agree.

My first choice would be for Busch to purchase the park.

My second would be the folk with Dolly and probably third would be for Gaylord to get back into the park business.

Considering what Dolly did for Dollywood after the purchase, I think it would be win-win for everyone.

[Outdoor Man]

Gaylord.... that is an interesting thought. They would be a good fit for the Paramount Park system. What area of the Park do you think they would focus on? ie- entertainment, thrill, etc... I know that more money would be invested in to the grounds crew (actually Busch would do that too).

That's an intriguing thought.... they've got the capital to do it.

[The Interpreter]

Gaylord?

The people who walked away from Opryland?

The people who, along with USAA, emasculated The Rattler at Fiesta Texas?

The people who almost took country music off WSM--until the public raised Holy Hannah?

Gaylord?

Surely you jest.

[DevilMayChew]

Gaylord's Kings Island?

[WooferBearATL]

Gaylord?

The people who walked away from Opryland?

The people who, along with USAA, emasculated The Rattler at Fiesta Texas?

The people who almost took country music off WSM--until the public raised Holy Hannah?

Gaylord?

Surely you jest.

Come On!

You can't pretend that Opryland was not a fantastic park.

And Yes, I know it was a huge loss when they closed the park to build OpryMills but I think it would be a good fit.

Lord knows that their hotel/convention centers rival anything you'd find in Vegas.

[The Interpreter]

Gaylord took great delight in closing the park.

It was THEIR decision.

The outlet thing was a total flop.

I doubt they learned a thing from it, though.

And running a park today is a very different proposition than it was when they did it.

[Outdoor Man]

if i'm not mistaken Opryland was losing money because the market they were in didn't support it. Their attendance figures were paltry. The are an enourmous entertainment empire that is much larger than the Nashville scene.

Anyway, it is intriguing. I think they would be good for atmosphere, as would Busch... the Dollywood people.... let's pray they don't buy- but they would be good for the "good ole country shows".... no offense to Ms. parton... but I can't handle Blue Grass music. My wife and I visited Dollywood once, and it was the longest day of my life.

[Mikewhy]

I actually really enjoyed Dollywood, and think it is one of the nicest parks out there!

As for Opryland, there is debate about how profitable the park was when it closed. There is evidence that is was still doing well at the time they closed it. Even the current Gaylord owners say that the closing of Opryland was a mistake that they do not understand. (The people at Gaylord now are not the ones in power at the time that Opryland closed.)

I am not nearly as critical of PKI as some on this board, but I do see room for improvement in the areas of landscaping, live entertainment, theming and as one person said above, all the little details that add up to make for a nice experience at the park. I thought the Kings Island of my youth (70's) did a better job with this. My family could not afford to go to Disney, but we did go to Kings Island every year and I always loved it. It was "my" Disney. The park does not seem as special now because many of those little details related to theming, landscaping and shows are not as well executed, although I have seen some improvement lately. (When I heard the lights on the I-street buildings added for Winterfest would be used during the regular season at night, I was very happy!)

I will say though that PKI still has better atmosphere than most of the other parks out there. I still love the park, rank it in my top 3 parks, and appreciate the things that Paramount has done to keep the park going over the years. It is my hope the new owners will continue making improvements.

[Outdoor Man]

we just need to pray that the next owner(s) are of the entertainment/amusement industry and "understand" the nature of all three aspects (Thrill, Entertainment, and Atmosphere) and not just specialize in one of them.... and that likely would not be an "investment group.... headed by"- and I;m not referring to any one specific entity.

and to the post above (MikeWhy), it would be intersting to note that Roy Disney (I think that was his name) consulted on the development of Kings Island.... which explains the heavy influence of the original HB characters during the 70's. (and I don't remember where I heard that from).