The future of Nickelodeon Universe

[ragerunner]

TheKlockster,

How is the Peanuts more for amusement parks and Nick more for theme parks?

The are both cartoon characters. Knotts Berry Farm is more of a theme park than an amusement park an they have the Peanut characters.

[The Interpreter]

The Klockster opined:

Well I mean Nickelodeon is clearly going to bring in more money. But that goes along with the Theme Park type thing - and Cedar Fair runs amusement parks.

Which takes us to the biggest question of all, as I see it.

After the Paramount Parks acquisition, will it be Cedar Fair's goal to run amusement parks and theme parks...or to convert the theme parks it bought to amusement parks over time?

[jzarley]

The Klockster opined:

Well I mean Nickelodeon is clearly going to bring in more money. But that goes along with the Theme Park type thing - and Cedar Fair runs amusement parks.

Which takes us to the biggest question of all, as I see it.

After the Paramount Parks acquisition, will it be Cedar Fair's goal to run amusement parks and theme parks...or to convert the theme parks it bought to amusement parks over time?

Hmmm...good question. I guess that all depends on whether they really believe that the Paramount Parks serve a different niche than their current parks do. (And, of course, whether they can make a good ROI in that niche...) Perhaps CF isn't just looking at this acquisition as a way to increase their market penetration, but expand their segmentation as well.

At least we know that for purposes of the acquistion, the Paramount Parks will be treated as a different legal entity than the other assets. This was mentioned during one of the conference calls...it was due to tax reasons if I remember correctly.

http://www.cedarfair.com/_upload/cedarfair...entationweb.pdf (slide #13)

I still think CF would have been a lot better off buying Great Wolf Lodges...a growing percentage of their revenue is coming from lodging anyway, they already have the hotel organization in place, it's good year-round revenue, and they wouldn't have had to mortgage the farm to buy it... (How odd they never asked me )

[TheKlockster]

So Paramount will be its own thing - not just made a part of the Cedar Fair map?

[Outdoor Man]

i didn't flip through all of the comments on this thread so maybe someone else already mentioned it... so sorry if it has.

CF may look to extend the Nick license to all parks for a prolonged period of time. Before this acquisition as large as CF was prior they did not have access to any of the modern, popular childrens "likings." Warner Bros characters rights were exclusively to certain parks, ect.... this is probably their first real opportunity to introduce a modern-day children's theme to their parks.

I agree with some of the posts I've read.... I bet they extend the license and take it to all the CF parks.

[CoastersRZ]

I find that hard to believe. I never really heard that discussed on the day they announced the acquisition. Yeah, that one slide makes it look that way. But Cedar Fair will be controlling Paramount Parks, and the two will be one company. Part of the advantage that Cedar Fair saw in the purchase of Paramount Parks was the ability to save some money on the corporate level, as well as having more leveraged buying power in terms of merchandise, food and maintenance. Sure seems like they will be operated as one company to me. Especially since the unit holders of Cedar Fair will be the ones to reap the benefits of the deal once things stabilize.

[The Interpreter]

Agreed. There is legal structure for tax reasons, and there is what is visible to the public. I doubt that Paramount Parks will be visible to the public 5 years from now.

[CoastersRZ]

I`m assuming that once the sale is finalized in the third quarter, that Paramount Parks won`t be noticable to people outside of the accounting offices at Cedar Fair. Of course, it will take them a while to phase out Paramount Parks. But I would imagine that next season all the former Paramount Parks will have the mountain logo removed and will be called by their original names. Ie, PKI will be known officially as Kings Island again. PKD will be simply Kings Dominion again.

[jzarley]

Yeah...so, re-read my post. I clearly said for purposes of the acquisition, and specifically for tax reasons. I never said "Paramount Parks" would still exist, and I certainly never said that would be the case five years from now... I think a lot was read in to a very matter-of-fact comment about the legal structure of the acquisition.

However, it's not unusual for a corporation to have different legal entities existing under one corporate umbrella. In fact, the company I currently work for has seven different legal entities that make up the corporation. One of the hotel companies I worked for previously had three different legal entities making up each of the brands, and a "service corporation" that allowed us to realize shared operational synergies (IT, HR, finance, procurement, etc.). It's usually done for tax advantages (or in the case of my current company--regulatory reasons), and it's usually invisible to people outside the company.

[Outdoor Man]

someone made a post in another thread that made sense. I doubt it would happen, but made good sense. If CF continued Paramount Parks as a wholy owned subsidiary of CF. Then kept references of Paramount to those parks for creative licensing and royalty income for advertising movies in "their" parks in addition to use of the intellectual property of Paramount's name.

intriguing. Not likely, but intriguing.

[CoastersRZ]

While that seems great on the surface, it has some problems. For starters, Cedar Fair is very hands on management. They like to increase the per capita spending at all their parks. I`m sure that they would want to have some control over the parks, which is evident by the fact that WinterFest at KI may not even occur this year. Secondly, I would imagine that Cedar Fair would have to pay CBS/Viacom for use of the Nick and Paramount libraries, ie licensing fees. Why would CBS/Viacom pay Cedar Fair to use their property? It is similar to how Fox Sports Net pays the Reds an affiliation fee to air the Reds games on cable. Cedar Fair must pay Viacom a license fee to use their intellectual property.

I just don`t see Cedar Fair keeping the Paramount themes around, or keeping Paramount Parks around as a subsidiary company of Cedar Fair (kind of like how Paramount Parks was a subsidiary of CBS and Viacom). Additionally, I think that Paramount Parks CEO Al Webber may be out of a job (as well as most of the other GM and Executive Vice Presidents at the parks (Tim Fischer at PKI)) once the transaction is complete.

I did find it odd that in one article, David Mandt, the official Paramount Parks corporate spokesperson, referred all questions related to PP`s history of theming rides to a Cedar Fair spokesperson. Interesting...

[The Interpreter]

Very well said.

This is why I think those who think there will not be major changes at Kings Island (or any other Paramount Park) are mistaken. Cedar Fair WILL run these parks differently than Paramount was or would have if they had kept them.

Perhaps not quickly so, but definitely so.

There IS a Cedar Fair way of doing almost anything. There is, (soon to be was), a Paramount way. They are not necessarily the same, though in many areas of park management and operation, they are similar, in others they are vastly different. Some of these things are in areas guests easily see (queue lines, food service experiences, hiring practices), some are not at all visible (cash management, capital investment philosophy, degree of management autonomy at the park level, etc.) and some are a bit of both (training of employees, corporate philosophy, etc.)

One of the reasons that the old Six Flags had so many problems was that there never really was *A* Six Flags way of doing things. Operations and management varied wildly from park to park. Bad operations at any Six Flags park diluted the entire brand. Excellent operations in one area at a park (say, pass processing) were easily outweighed by poor operations in another (say, food). There was no overarching philosophy or oversight.

[jzarley]

This is why I think those who think there will not be major changes at Kings Island (or any other Paramount Park) are mistaken.  Cedar Fair WILL run these parks differently than Paramount was or would have if they had kept them.

Maybe I've missed this is the hundreds of posts on this topic, but has anyone ever actually posted that they expect no changes to occur? Or, was that more a general statement of attitudes beyond the fan boards?

[The Interpreter]

There have been several posts here to the effect of one of two things:

* Kings Island won't change much regardless of who owns it (most of these were BEFORE the Cedar Fair acquisition was announced...and I suspect most of them were by younger park fans who love the park but don't really understand how it is run).

* Who cares? None of this stuff really matters. Go enjoy the park. (One of these was as recent at this past week...and there have been several).

These have been a very small proportion of the total posts, but they have been out there.

[italianchef]

While that seems great on the surface, it has some problems. For starters, Cedar Fair is very hands on management. They like to increase the per capita spending at all their parks. I`m sure that they would want to have some control over the parks, which is evident by the fact that WinterFest at KI may not even occur this year. Secondly, I would imagine that Cedar Fair would have to pay CBS/Viacom for use of the Nick and Paramount libraries, ie licensing fees. Why would CBS/Viacom pay Cedar Fair to use their property? It is similar to how Fox Sports Net pays the Reds an affiliation fee to air the Reds games on cable. Cedar Fair must pay Viacom a license fee to use their intellectual property.

I just don`t see Cedar Fair keeping the Paramount themes around, or keeping Paramount Parks around as a subsidiary company of Cedar Fair (kind of like how Paramount Parks was a subsidiary of CBS and Viacom). Additionally, I think that Paramount Parks CEO Al Webber may be out of a job (as well as most of the other GM and Executive Vice Presidents at the parks (Tim Fischer at PKI)) once the transaction is complete.

I did find it odd that in one article, David Mandt, the official Paramount Parks corporate spokesperson, referred all questions related to PP`s history of theming rides to a Cedar Fair spokesperson. Interesting...

I agree with you. It is not logical to assume that CF will keep PP as an existing entity. The current 5 parks will surely be assimilated into the CF corporate structure. Hence, many folks who work for PP corporate HQ may need to seek new opportunities.

CF will likely look at marketing research data while deciding whether or not to renew the Nickelodeon license.

But my common sense tells me that Nickelodeon will go. Does anyone honestly believe that children will tell their parents something to the effect of, "I don't want to go to Kings Island/Carowinds/etc. because they don't have Nickelodeon"????

Sure, Nickelodeon merchandise sells better and the children LOVE Nickelodeon while Peanuts is comparatively obscure to modern children. But I don't think that the money lost from losing Nickelodeon will exceed the money saved by using the Peanuts theming.

Have a great day!

Italian Chef

[PKIVortex]

I think it all depends which Cedar Fair sees as a better fit. Nickeloden does fit in better with kids today. However the Peanuts have been working out just fine for the other Cedar Fair parks. So maybe we will see Nickeloden gone in 4 years and maybe we won't. Maybe we will have both Peanuts and Nickeloden in the park.

[The Interpreter]

Cedar Fair no doubt doesn't care about 'fit.'

They care, as ItalianChef pointed out, about making money.

And whichever franchise best serves the bottom line in a given park is what they will do.

[jzarley]

...Sure, Nickelodeon merchandise sells better and the children LOVE Nickelodeon while Peanuts is comparatively obscure to modern children. But I don't think that the money lost from losing Nickelodeon will exceed the money saved by using the Peanuts theming.

Do we actually know that the Peanuts licensing is that much cheaper than Viacom is charging for Nick? Keep in mind...United Features Syndicate hasn't just given away the rights to Peanuts...CF is paying a license fee for it as well.

I agree it makes sense that Nick would cost more due to the popularity, but one of the comments made by Kinzel during one of the calls is that Viacom extended the same licensing deal to CF that it was already charging Paramount Parks. I'd like to think that since they were "sister" companies, Paramount was getting a pretty fair deal. (Although, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I saw one division of the same company screw over another )

[The Interpreter]

Regardless, now CF can go to both and say we are going to keep one or the other (if they want to do that). Make them bid against each other.

A synergy!

[jzarley]

A synergy!

It's about time for a Paramount Park!

[Erosarrow05]

Italian Chef....

I think your last statement is bakwards - you said something to the effect of :

- children wont say "mommy i dont want to go to Kings Island because they dont have nickelodeon..."

- you missed all of the kids who say "mommy i want to go to Kings Island becuase they do have nickelodeon"

If you can get children to see these commercials where they can go meet dora - ride blue etc etc etc - more often than not the kid will probably say something.

The funny thing about some of the other statements in this thread - about how children wont notice and or care that nick is gone.... There are people on here who still ***** and moan about how tiques are gone, as well as scooters.

My personal opinion is that CF would be missing the mark if they let nick go. Any tool bag moron can tell you just by walking through a meijer or walmart, that the walls are stacked with nick merchandise.

Would the loss of Nick be detrimental to 'kiddie land' ... of course not - but does it help in marketing - absolutely.

We'll see - the one thing we should keep in mind though, is that not every PP has the nick themed area like PKI's. Some of theme are rather small and some still have a nick area - and another non-themed nick area.

[Vortexlover2]

I voted expand the nick license-I love that channel!

[WooferBearATL]

Kids are going to go to any amusment park most any time. A child is not going to enjoy the Fairly Odd Coaster more or less if it is that, The Beastie or Scooby Doo.

[italianchef]

If I ask my son whether he'd rather go to church or Kings Island, I think he'll choose Kings Island regardless of whether Hanna-Barbara, Nickelodeon, Peanuts of even PBS Kids characters are in the park.

Have a great day!

Italian Chef

[WooferBearATL]

If I ask my son whether he'd rather go to church or Kings Island, I doubt the answer would depend on whether Nickelodeon or Peanuts were in the park.

Have a great day!

Italian Chef

Nah, can't you hear ToddlerChef say "Daddy I don't want to Go To Kings Island and see Peanuts."

<G>

I think that people are missing a great portion of the actual pull. The pull is primairly for the parents. The parents make the decisions as to where and when the family does things.

[marlfox_21]

Well, something is obviously not being done right at Kings Island. Living in Florida, I can tell you this. I tell people about Kings Island all of the time. I wear the t-shirts, and I have the keychain, and most people ask "What the %*#@ is Kings Island? And I tell them, and they still look at me almost clueless and say "Well, it sounds like a neat place" And when you mention Cedar Point, these same people are like, "OH YEA! I've Heard of that! Or I've been there! They have Millennium Force, and they promote SNOOPY RIGHT!" I have heard this a great many times from many people. The one thing that they usually have heard about that has anything to do with Kings Island, is "The Beast." Granted the fact that you can watch programming here and see a Cedar Point advertisement immediately following a Sea World advertisement ( often ) probably helps. Just going by this small bit of information, I would have to favor that Cedar Fair is probably not going to lose their widespread imagery and reputation by keeping Nickelodeon around. In fact, I am willing to bet that they will remove Nickelodeon as soon as contracts permit. After all, if you started a business, ( in this case an amusement park ) and you specifically chose to have "Peanuts" characters represent your park, I would imagine that you did so for a reason. Chances are that something about the characters themselves, in "Peanuts" case, simply enjoying and laughing at life represents something that you want to say about the park you are running. Chances are the fanbase for these types of Characters also says something about your "Target Audience" as well. In any case, I personally would not be willing to allow the function of one former owner, in this case Paramount, to manipulate the image that I have already created. One that is already affiliated with my companies name. And most importantly, One that works well. And I doubt that the people who respect and control the function of Cedar Fair will either.

[jzarley]

...I would have to favor that Cedar Fair is probably not going to lose their widespread imagery and reputation by keeping Nickelodeon around. In fact, I am willing to bet that they will remove Nickelodeon as soon as contracts permit. After all, if you started a business, ( in this case an amusement park ) and you specifically chose to have "Peanuts" characters represent your park, I would imagine that you did so for a reason. Chances are that something about the characters themselves, in "Peanuts" case, simply enjoying and laughing at life represents something that you want to say about the park you are running. Chances are the fanbase for these types of Characters also says something about your "Target Audience" as well. In any case, I personally would not be willing to allow the function of one former owner, in this case Paramount, to manipulate the image that I have already created. One that is already affiliated with my companies name. And most importantly, One that works well. And I doubt that the people who respect and control the function of Cedar Fair will either.

While "Cedar Point" is pretty well known (mostly due to their increased advertising reach, and their brilliant marketing presence in pretty much every amusement park show on the Travel Channel, TLC, Discovery, National Geographic, etc.) on a national level, I'm willing to bet that the name "Cedar Fair" isn't nearly as well known. (Nor, should it, since CF's management has worked hard to keep each park's local identity instead of gentrifying them under one corporate brand name...and, yeah--I'm talking about you Six Flags )

Also, keep in mind that Cedar Fair didn't "start out" using the Peanuts license...that came about only after their acquisition of Knotts Berry Farm in 1997. (Prior to that, for years the only characters represented at Cedar Point were the Berenstein Bears.) The rights to use the Peanuts characters in their other parks came about as the result of an acquisition...just like the acquisition of Paramount Parks.

[marlfox_21]

Cedar Fair Conference Call Review

May 22nd, 2006

Here are some highlights of the conference call Cedar Fair held on the purchase of Paramount Parks.

- Cedar Fair will now operate 12 parks, 5 water parks, and one indoor water park.

- Cedar Fair is expected to entertain over 12 million guests and is one of the world's largest regional park operator

- The Paramount Parks will continue the Nickelodeon theme until the contract expires in four years, in which Cedar Fair will have the option of extending it.

- Cedar Fair plans to maintain current distribution policy.

- King's Island and King's Dominion will keep their names

- Paramount name may or may not stay, but it is a separate contract than the Nickelodeon deal

- A season pass for all 12 parks should be created in 2007

- No changes will be made to any of the parks for 2006

- Cedar Fair plans on maintaining the high quality, cleanliness, and safety of the Paramount Parks. They are not parks that do not need much work to reach the "Cedar Fair Level".

- Bonfante Gardens and Star Trek: The Experience in Las Vegas were included in the deal and Cedar Fair gains both locations as well.

- "Regional Management" will not take place, as there will be a General Manager at each park

- King's Island and Cedar Point will not be in competition

- Project 2007 Announcement will be in Late August

- Great Wolf Lodge at King's Island will remain with CBS

- Cedar Fair will evaluate bring the Nick Characters to the Cedar Fair parks

-Mike

The Point Online

I thought somebody might want to look at this.

M.F.

[CoastersRZ]

Why are you bringing the highlights of the conference call back up? They have been discussed in other threads extensively.