Winterfest tickets no longer available

[The Interpreter]

I think you will find that what was said was that there would be no major changes in the Paramount Parks this SEASON. Winterfest is not a part of the season. It's after the season ends.

And to say that Winterfest attracted as many people as on a normal summer day might be true....if you compare opening night of Winterfest to a summer weekday where it pours rain and lightnings all day.

Of course the park said it went well. The people who were responsible for its success are never going to say: "We overpriced it, the people didn't respond and it was a colossal failure. We are very sorry that we didn't execute this as well as we should have and are going back to the drawing board to decide what to do."

Yeah, they might lose a little bit of money if they don't have it (contract deposits, a few hundred (yes, hundred) pre-sold tickets would have to be refunded). They are apt to lose a lot more if they DO have it.

"They will either keep or buy out the Paramount name." That's backwards. They will either give up the Paramount name or pay to keep using it.

As for how quickly Geauga was rethemed, other than the massive theming in the kids area, things had to be renamed but not rethemed. The kids area was barely redone. The first year, carrots were EVERYWHERE. Many still are.

Geauga wasn't really a theme park and still isn't. Nothing like TRTR exists there. Batman Knight Flight, for instance, involved only taking down a sign. A sign they removed so well, you can STILL see what the letters said on the front of the ride...Gotham City became Power City. Minor renaming. There was a lot of work to be done to convert the park, but retheming wasn't a major part of it.

As for Winterfest, so far, one of my major predictions seems to be coming true. By August or September, we should know how much season passes are going to cost, what benefits are included (and what costs extra), and what the exchange program is going to be. I say that's when people are going to start to realize two things: Paramount Parks no longer owns or operates the parks AND Paramount Parks did some things very, very right--and Cedar Fair either is or is not going to learn from them and incorporate them---Will the pass program be more like the one Paramount Parks had or more like the one Cedar Fair had? And will they truly become one program, or will we see two programs with minor integration? If the latter, will it stay that way, or will they eventually merge the two? Questions, questions.

One thing I don't think a lot of people understand. Many decisions (perhaps even the one about whether to have Winterfest), truly have NOT been made. The people running Cedar Fair are people. There is no secret cabal with the plan already written down that they are just mindlessly executing. There are meetings galore, arguments, fights even, and they do the best they can. Let's all hope and pray they do very well indeed. Kings Island, and all their parks, and their thousands of employees , the states and localities where the parks are located, and the unitholders (and the suppliers, banks and creditors), are all depending on them and trusting that they do well!

And this may be a surprise to you, but I bet the entire industry is pulling for Cedar Fair to make this work. Just as many are hoping that Shapiro and Snyder can save Six Flags. Parks becoming condos is not just a small park thing. We've already lost Astroworld. This is a tough business. It ain't as easy as playing Roller Coaster Tycoon (not that I am ANY good at that. I ain't.)

[Captain Picard]

Now that Cedar Fair is into showing the numbers, they should show the ones for Winterfest and we can all see how bad it was.

[The Interpreter]

Now that Cedar Fair is into showing the numbers, they should show the ones for Winterfest and we can all see how bad it was.

I totally agree. I bet it doesn't happen, though.

[Steveo3631]

Winterfest grew over the years. It didn't happen overnight, and each year it operated, it grew larger with more entertainment. While the offerings last year seemed limited from those in the past, I was hoping that it would get back to where it was when it closed in 1992. The park had junked or given away many of the decorations they had back in 92, and it would be no small feat to replace it all in one go around.

When Wintrerfest opened, it was the only place to go for the Holidays. After a while, they got competition from the Zoo and other events around the city. Guests stopped coming out, and for those guests I ran across who missed it, as many didn't even know it was gone.

Paramount listened to the guests to bring it back. It's sad that those that missed it didn't support it.

I'd somewhat heard that Winterfest was originally designed to lose money which could be written off as a loss. I may be incorrect on that, I used to push the green button, not the green bucks. Still I miss WF, and if CF suspends it, I will mourn I didn't come up to see it last year!

[WooferBearATL]

Having spoken with several, it seems that it's true that Paramount set Winterfest up to finally fail.

When it left the park it was highly successful and they wanted to ensure that it would be an event that would not return.

[Steveo3631]

The rumor I had heard was that the original Winterfest was set up to lose money and that it could only be claimed as a loss for ten years on the books. That was from someone who worked at the park who could potentially know that information.

It is an interesting concept. A popular tourist event designed to lose money to reduce taxes.

[jzarley]

The rumor I had heard was that the original Winterfest was set up to lose money and that it could only be claimed as a loss for ten years on the books. That was from someone who worked at the park who could potentially know that information.

It is an interesting concept. A popular tourist event designed to lose money to reduce taxes.

So...they treated the event as a capital expenditure and depreciated it over ten years? That would be difficult to do with today's IRS cap ex rules...

[Steveo3631]

The rumor I had heard was that the original Winterfest was set up to lose money and that it could only be claimed as a loss for ten years on the books.  That was from someone who worked at the park who could potentially know that information.

It is an interesting concept.  A popular tourist event designed to lose money to reduce taxes.

So...they treated the event as a capital expenditure and depreciated it over ten years? That would be difficult to do with today's IRS cap ex rules...

Yes, I guess. I see you finished college with a major better than mine.

[Dalefan]

I think you will find that what was said was that there would be no major changes in the Paramount Parks this SEASON. Winterfest is not a part of the season. It's after the season ends.

And to say that Winterfest attracted as many people as on a normal summer day might be true....if you compare opening night of Winterfest to a summer weekday where it pours rain and lightnings all day.

Of course the park said it went well. The people who were responsible for its success are never going to say: "We overpriced it, the people didn't respond and it was a colossal failure. We are very sorry that we didn't execute this as well as we should have and are going back to the drawing board to decide what to do."

Yeah, they might lose a little bit of money if they don't have it (contract deposits, a few hundred (yes, hundred) pre-sold tickets would have to be refunded). They are apt to lose a lot more if they DO have it.

"They will either keep or buy out the Paramount name." That's backwards. They will either give up the Paramount name or pay to keep using it.

As for how quickly Geauga was rethemed, other than the massive theming in the kids area, things had to be renamed but not rethemed. The kids area was barely redone. The first year, carrots were EVERYWHERE. Many still are.

Geauga wasn't really a theme park and still isn't. Nothing like TRTR exists there. Batman Knight Flight, for instance, involved only taking down a sign. A sign they removed so well, you can STILL see what the letters said on the front of the ride...Gotham City became Power City. Minor renaming. There was a lot of work to be done to convert the park, but retheming wasn't a major part of it.

As for Winterfest, so far, one of my major predictions seems to be coming true. By August or September, we should know how much season passes are going to cost, what benefits are included (and what costs extra), and what the exchange program is going to be. I say that's when people are going to start to realize two things: Paramount Parks no longer owns or operates the parks AND Paramount Parks did some things very, very right--and Cedar Fair either is or is not going to learn from them and incorporate them---Will the pass program be more like the one Paramount Parks had or more like the one Cedar Fair had? And will they truly become one program, or will we see two programs with minor integration? If the latter, will it stay that way, or will they eventually merge the two? Questions, questions.

One thing I don't think a lot of people understand. Many decisions (perhaps even the one about whether to have Winterfest), truly have NOT been made. The people running Cedar Fair are people. There is no secret cabal with the plan already written down that they are just mindlessly executing. There are meetings galore, arguments, fights even, and they do the best they can. Let's all hope and pray they do very well indeed. Kings Island, and all their parks, and their thousands of employees , the states and localities where the parks are located, and the unitholders (and the suppliers, banks and creditors), are all depending on them and trusting that they do well!

And this may be a surprise to you, but I bet the entire industry is pulling for Cedar Fair to make this work. Just as many are hoping that Shapiro and Snyder can save Six Flags. Parks becoming condos is not just a small park thing. We've already lost Astroworld. This is a tough business. It ain't as easy as playing Roller Coaster Tycoon (not that I am ANY good at that. I ain't.)

When i was at the Q&A at CoasterMania that is what was said about them keeping or buying out the Paramount contract. You have to of been at the Q&A to hear them say that otherwise no one really knows what was said.

[CoastersRZ]

Well, when they made the announcement about buying the parks, they said that they would know by Labor day weekend whether or not WinterFest was going to occur for this season.

[The Interpreter]

When i was at the Q&A at CoasterMania that is what was said about them keeping or buying out the Paramount contract. You have to of been at the Q&A to hear them say that otherwise no one really knows what was said.

Actually, legally required financial disclosures have been made to the SEC.

See FAQ #8 here: http://www.cedarfair.com/_upload/8-k%20paramount%20faq.pdf

Note that, contrary to what even I thought, Cedar Fair DID get the rights to the Paramount licensing for ten years, "subject to early termination rights."

My GUESS is that means that Cedar Fair would get a refund for the unused portion of time if it did not use the rights. But I am not sure. And the way that disclosure is written, it can be read in numerous ways.

Note also it says that the decision whether or not to use the Paramount theming is still being evaluated.

What was said at Q and A at Coastermania is NOT a public disclosure strictly regulated by the SEC. But....if new information not previously public was released there and it could in any way substantially affect the value of the stock, Cedar Fair's corporate officials could be in some serious hot water with the SEC.

Which is to say, nothing of any substance is ever revealed in a Q's and A's outside of conference calls and stockholders meetings. Companies are well aware of the penalties for doing so.

[spngbob]

I dont kno if this means anything to anyone but the park maps set to release on the 10th mention FearFest but have no advertising for Winterfest

[The Interpreter]

I dont kno if this means anything to anyone but the park maps set to release on the 10th mention FearFest but have no advertising for Winterfest

Do they have any mention of Cedar Fair LP?

[spngbob]

Ermm.. I dont think so.. I work a double tomorrow though so Ill check

I didnt look throught it real good but Im pretty sure it didnt say anything about Cedar Fair

[CoastersRZ]

Well seeing as how tomorrow is only the ninth of July, I doubt they have anything that the maps on the tenth have, since the new maps are released on the tenth.

[WooferBearATL]

Well seeing as how tomorrow is only the ninth of July, I doubt they have anything that the maps on the tenth have, since the new maps are released on the tenth.

They would have the maps in stock already.

He'd be right depending on where he works.

[PhantomTheater]

The Maps that are set to be released might not have anything about CF on them because, most of the time stuff like that start being print up at least a month in advance.

[WooferBearATL]

The Maps that are set to be released might not have anything about CF on them because, most of the time stuff like that start being print up at least a month in advance.

Does the park still have it's own print shop?

[CoastersRZ]

I believe that the park uses SpringDot to print out all their brochures and maps.

[cstrwomann]

I feel that Winterfest could be a huge success if it was included in the season pass price. People would rather travel to Southern Ohio then Sandusky in November/Dec/Jan because there's less snow. Also people would spend more money in the park at this event and spread the news faster. I feel that CF should give it another try this year and if it flops cancel it.

[king_cobra_27]

Much like Nick Universe, WinterFest was contracted to the park for a number of years. I believe that it was 4. So I really don't see anything happening to WinterFest any time soon. But I have heard rumors of not renewing the contract.

In that case it would be kinda sad. Getting rid of WinterFest was the 1st action that Paramount ever made with the park. I would hate to see it be a 1st for Cedar Fair too.

[BoddaH1994]

Much like Nick Universe, WinterFest was contracted to the park for a number of years. I believe that it was 4. So I really don't see anything happening to WinterFest any time soon. But I have heard rumors of not renewing the contract.

In that case it would be kinda sad. Getting rid of WinterFest was the 1st action that Paramount ever made with the park. I would hate to see it be a 1st for Cedar Fair too.

I believe a lot of the stuff for Winterfest was on a 3 year "rent to own" deal.