How would you feel if PKI got X Flight?

[ragerunner]

If X-Flight leaves Geauga Lake, then I would agree that this is only the beginning of the reductions to the park. I believe you many even see the park become more like a Wyndote Lake. A few rides but mostly a waterpark. With the parks opening for 2007 not until Memorial Day weekend and the lose of their Halloween events they are already starting to operate it on waterpark hours.

[jzarley]

Of course, the big problem is that SF tried to make GL (or SFO, or SFWOA) into something that it was never really cut out for--a major regional park. They dropped millions of dollars of capital into a park that was never going to develop the attendance to support the overhead. Granted, CF reports huge drops in attendance after taking over, but I've read where other people have said that SFWOA never really had the attendance SF claimed either... There's a reason SF let it go for just $145M.

GL when it was run as a local park by Funtime and Premier was very successful. It had a ride compliment appropriate for its attendance, and did a great business in corporate picnics. When CF announced that they were buying GL, they said they intended to return it to that type of park. However, the "footprint" (as Kinzel referred to it) is still there from the SF days, and the attendance isn't there to support it. The balance sheet depreciation on all that CapEx has to be killing them.

I'm not sure how much losing X-Flight would hurt GL's attendance, but look at it this wayâ€â€even if GL's attendance dropped 20% (very unlikely I'd imagine) from losing X-Flight, but KI's increased just 5% for getting it, it's still probably an overall financial plus for CF. That's just the difference in potential between the two parks.

[ragerunner]

I think the big challenge with GL is, how do you downsize a park and not have significate attendance and fan lose. It like eating a piece of cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory and then you are given a piece of cheesecake to eat for the local gas station. You probably will not be to excited to continue returning to the gas station for cheesecake year after year. If that makes sense.

[jzarley]

^ Well to share in your analogy, GL was never really the Cheesecake Factory...it was always just the gas station. (SF just tried to put a Cheescake Factory sign on it...)

The biggest hit to GL's attendance has already occurred with the loss of the animal attractions. To be blunt, attendance there hasn't declined because people miss Six Flags...it declined because people miss Sea World. Unfortunately, that die was cast quite a while ago...

[ragerunner]

I think the big challenge with GL is, how do you downsize a park and not have significate attendance and fan lose. It like eating a piece of cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory and then you are given a piece of cheesecake to eat for the local gas station. You probably will not be to excited to continue returning to the gas station for cheesecake year after year. If that makes sense.

To funny, you got me there.

I agree the real lose in that area was Sea World - not as bad as the lose of Opryland but pretty close.

[The Interpreter]

It also probably didn't help matters that Cedar Fair constructed the new section of the waterpark with non-union labor, then when the local labor unions boycotted the park, the park filed a complaint against the unions for an illegal secondary boycott, an action that was later quietly dropped, probably after wiser heads at Cedar Fair realized that regardless of how correct their legal position may or may not have been, they were in a "no-win" situation from a public relations standpoint.

[Skippy]

I don't know if you heard/saw any of the Geauga Lake commercials this year but X-Flight was equally marketed with Wildwater Kingdom The theme was "What a Surprise" and it was to help push the new birthday parties.

The Radio Ad centered around a child opening his present and then being, of all things, surprised to find out it was Geauga Lake. Then he asks his Mom if he gets X-Flight too, after which she confirms that, and goes on to mention Wildwater Kingdom and "other great attractions" as they put it.

The TV Ad had a guy handing his girlfriend a present and the Geauga Lake bursting out of it. X-Flight, Thunderhawk (with it's last year new paint job), and Wildwater Kingdom are mainly shown.

On their online poll, conducted a few years ago, X-Flight took top spot as the favorite Geauga Lake roller coaster with Dominator as the only one even close behind. I'm sure if X-Flight still had all 3 trains it probably would have the highest capacity in the park, right next to Dominator of-course.

Anyone who works at the park could tell you that getting rid of any of the 4-Six Flags major coasters would terribly affect the park as most of the guests feel we need another coaster if anything.

A little less than half of our guest feel the new water park was a waste as they liked the old one better, they also feel with the ride count continually dropping and no animals that they're getting less for their money, that most of our pass holders are reluctant to renew with the removal of The Haunt, and that prices in the park are just not worth it.

I'm telling you if Geauga Lake has nothing to advertise next year but increased prices and the loss of one of the most popular attractions in the park, that 20% drop won't seem too unreasonable. Take it from an employee, most guests are disgusted with the park and were unaware of some of the changes (like the removal of The Haunt).

They are on the edge, don't push them Geauga Lake.

[The Interpreter]

It's not the Geauga Lake people who are doing any pushing, but rather Cedar Fair. Note too that Lexi is no longer with the park. How it was marketed in the past may have little to nothing to do with how the park is marketed in the future. Note also that combo passes with Cedar Point are now a thing of the past. Want to go to both CP and GLP? Got to get a Maxx pass. And pay for parking both places.

[KIBeast]

I don't see how those people could possibly like the old water park over the new. WWK is really good. HH was, meh. Anyhoo, I could see some other coaster leaving first before X Flight or Dominator. Those are the two best steel coasters in the park.

[The Interpreter]

...except of course, for Superman...er Steel Venom.

[jzarley]

My guess is also that CF would be ok with GL only pulling 700K guests, if the footprint of the park (and associated expenses) were more in line with it. When picturing GL in the future, I imagine CF's vision looks a lot more like Michigan's Adventure than it does Knott's Berry Farm.

And, what--there are no conspiracy theorists here?? What about the idea that CF is purposely sacrificing GL to the benefit of its big cash cow in the north (CP), and its new cash cow in the south (KI)?

[Kenban]

My guess is also that CF would be ok with GL only pulling 700K guests, if the footprint of the park (and associated expenses) were more in line with it. When picturing GL in the future, I imagine CF's vision looks a lot more like Michigan's Adventure than it does Knott's Berry Farm.

And, what--there are no conspiracy theorists here?? What about the idea that CF is purposely sacrificing GL to the benefit of its big cash cow in the north (CP), and its new cash cow in the south (KI)?

Just want to point out that only 5 years ago in 2001 Geauga Lake had an annual attendance of 2.7 million. Considering the park now draws 700k and neither Cedar Point or Kings Island picked up those extra 2 million visits I don't think removing rides from GL will impact CP or KI unless the rides end up at one of them.

[jzarley]

^ neither do I...nor do I believe the whole "conspiracy theory" either...hence the whole use of the "winky" emoticon.

However...related to SFWOA's reported attendance of 2.7M guests. I've read several posts from different sources where people who were involved with the park at the time really questioned SF's attendance numbers. And, if SFWOA was really drawing an attendance bigger than SFMM why in the world did they sell it for $145M to CF? Burke may have been an idiot, but come on... They got out, and got out quick for a good reason (as did Busch Entertainment before them...)

I still maintain that the single biggest contributor to the loss of attendance has nothing to do with rides--it was the loss of Sea World (and SF's "Sea World-eque" section). We all still mourn the loss of that one. That combined with Intepreter's comment about the non-union construction issue (never underestimate the power of organized labor in NE Ohio) have been the culprits.

[Rustbucket]

The attendence figure may have been with Sea World and Geauga Lake combined before Six Flags took over. The loss of Sea World was huge. When we were living up near Geauga Lake, we had season passes there. The park was not very busy but there were some life to the park in 2001. When I visited in 2004, the park was dead. There was no life to the park. The park, in terms of acreage, is very large. But old Sea World area was blocked off. I think the waterpark will bring back some people. Their 10 coasters will not bring more people since many people go to Cedar Point instead from this area even with Dominator and X-Flight.

I liked X-Flight. This is probably my favorite Flyer. I have been on SUF at SFOG and SFGAm along with X-Flight. Frankly, I would like the coaster at PKI. I am certain that 99% of people who visit PKI will not know if the ride was new or used or where it came from.

[KIBeast]

My guess is also that CF would be ok with GL only pulling 700K guests, if the footprint of the park (and associated expenses) were more in line with it. When picturing GL in the future, I imagine CF's vision looks a lot more like Michigan's Adventure than it does Knott's Berry Farm.

And, what--there are no conspiracy theorists here?? What about the idea that CF is purposely sacrificing GL to the benefit of its big cash cow in the north (CP), and its new cash cow in the south (KI)?

Just want to point out that only 5 years ago in 2001 Geauga Lake had an annual attendance of 2.7 million. Considering the park now draws 700k and neither Cedar Point or Kings Island picked up those extra 2 million visits I don't think removing rides from GL will impact CP or KI unless the rides end up at one of them.

Actually, Cedar Fair found out that their attendance statistics were severly inflated. It was more like 1.6 million, not 2.7. It's being discussed at Coasterbuzz. If Jeff Putz says this, then it's probably true.

[fryler87]

I'd believe 1.6 more than anything. 2.7 is total bull****, and I don't see how Six Flags could have fooled anyone with that number. That's half a mil from CP and KI.

I haven't been to Aurora since the late 90's when Geauga Lake and Sea World complimented each other. GL has been around since the late 1800's in one form or another (CP has been around for just a little longer) and Sea World had been around for a little over 30 years until it was shut down. These parks could have worked for MANY more years, but Six Flags robbed the duo of their long-term future success.

It was a good, regional park that people from the Cleveland and Youngstown area to easily get to, and it wasn't like 'those big expensive parks.' Until Six Flags tried to install rides to pull guests from Cedar Point, the park was a perfect fit for its guests. That's what is killing GL today; Six Flags tried to compete with a park that clearly outmatched it. CP was built the way it was from the ground up, unlike GL. Turning a park into something COMPLETELY different than what it has always been rarely yields great success. I think CF has recognized this and its goal is to transform GL back to the stable, clean, local park that it was.

I don't see how anyone loses with X-Flight coming to KI. GL loses a coaster it couldn't support, and KI gets a ride that the public will think is brand new. The GP doesn't know (and if they know, they don't care!) that it's coming from GL. Whether a ride is brand new or used, it has zero effect on a guest's decision to ride it or not (unless you're talking about the Chance spinner that has a tendency to lost its cars). KI can financially support such a ride, and although moving it to the park is a large cost, CF is only profiting by doing this. They're cutting the fat, and building muscle.

If anything else, CF is giving coaster whiners a reason to shut their mouths for one more season, and at an attractive price.

[Captain Picard]

I don't know about the attractive price. We have been told that it cost about the same to relocate as it is to do a new install.

I think it's more about removing it from it's location than where it's going.

[Gordon Bombay]

^Exactly. It's no secret that eventhough CF has made many improvements to GL it still isn't pulling in the numbers CF wants and it certainlly never had, nor are they going to pay for, the infrastructure to better maintain rides like x flight which require quite a lot of maintenace attention and experties. I'm not saying that the crews up at GL are incompetent, tney are just spread too thin. PKI, has maintenace staff in their ranks who have come from both PGA and Carowinds and have experience with the same type of coaster. PKI also has a larger maintence staff. Geauga just isnt performing and X flight was hurting them more than helping them.

[ragerunner]

I don't know about the attractive price. We have been told that it cost about the same to relocate as it is to do a new install.

I think it's more about removing it from it's location than where it's going.

Are you just talking about installation costs? or are you saying its about the same price to move a used coasters as it is to aquire a new coaster and install it?

[Captain Picard]

I don't know about the attractive price. We have been told that it cost about the same to relocate as it is to do a new install.

I think it's more about removing it from it's location than where it's going.

Are you just talking about installation costs? or are you saying its about the same price to move a used coasters as it is to aquire a new coaster and install it?

It's about the same price to move a used coaster as it is to aquire a new coaster and install it.

We was told the one at Carowinds cost as much to move and install as it did when it was first installed at PGA.

[ragerunner]

I don't know about the attractive price. We have been told that it cost about the same to relocate as it is to do a new install.

I think it's more about removing it from it's location than where it's going.

Are you just talking about installation costs? or are you saying its about the same price to move a used coasters as it is to aquire a new coaster and install it?

It's about the same price to move a used coaster as it is to aquire a new coaster and install it.

We was told the one at Carowinds cost as much to move and install as it did when it was first installed at PGA.

I am not say you are wrong, but I find it difficult to believe its just as cheap to buy and install a new coaster as it is to move and install one that you already own? If this was the case, why would a company go buy a used coaster from a park and install it instead of buying a brand new similar coaster? The only thing I can think of is they were taking into account inflation were making that comment about Carowinds and PGA.

[PKIVortex]

I can't see how it would cost the same. Yes you have to pay labor for the removal of the ride, and then pay to have the ride rebulit. But I doubt it's about the same price as buying a new coaster.

[Captain Picard]

Shaggy posted about it one time. I had friend tell me about cost to relocate and he works at another park chain and he says the same.

Shaggy Posted on: May 23 2006

"First off, the one that was slated for PKI was the one from PGA that was stealth. Second, I hope PKI does not get a similar ride because the fact is it is not that good of a ride."

Well, kind-a-sort-a.

X Flight (Vekoma Flying Dutchman) located at Geauga Lake was slated originally for PKI.

The actual story is.... Al Webber contracted Vekoma to produce a prototype coaster for Paramount Parks that would be a "technical marvel." PPI and Vekoma partnered the cost of development, and PPD&E retained the right of refusal for future installs of the ride.

The original was "Stealth" installed at PGA. Now, There's a floating rumor that states "Stealth" was originally set to be installed at PKI. The rumor also exists that Tim Fisher (GM of PKI at the time) nixed the idea completely. Now, Stealth opened at PGA in 2000, at the same time that SOB was being designed/constructed/installed/opened... so facts sort of contradict this idea.

Stealth opened with numerous technical issues and problems. One could summize that the reason it went to PGA in the first place was likely due to the fact that because it was a prototype. It made better sense to install it at a lesser attended park and work out the kinks, prior to installing at their largest park.

Actually, there were two other Flying Dutchmans already being manufactured when Stealth opened. One for PKI, the other for PKD. Because of severe downtime, and costly repair, PPI decided to opt out of the 2 future installs and opened the rights to other park chains to invest in the ride type.

Thus the two other models ended up at neighboring parks. SFO (Six Flags Ohio... which became Six Flags Worlds of Adventure and then became Geauga Lake... again...) got X Flight and SFA (Six Flags America) got Batwing.

Those have been plagued with problems as well.

Intially, PKI's was slated to take the place of King Cobra. PKD's was to take the place of Shockwave. King Cobra survived a few more seasons before being removed altogether, and PKD's Shockwave still stands.

Following the debacle of the Stealth install at PGA, PPI officials decided to move the next install, Hypersonic XLC to PKD. (Hypersonic was intially supposed to be installed at PGA for the 2001 season.) This allowed them to add another prototype ride (Al Webber is ridiculously keen on "prototype" rides... sheesh!) yet to install it in a park that wasn't already home to a problem-plagued coaster. PGA went as far as to advertise the ride initially in park, and then quickly yanked all ads and references to it when the decision was made to install the S&S coaster at PKD.

Stealth had such a horrible reputation at PGA, and was placed so poorly in the park, that a few years back the decision was made to remove and relocate the coaster. That was to be the start to a "new" ride relocation program among Paramount Parks. The ride was then removed, relocated and re-assembled at Paramount's Carowinds where, although it experiences downtime, has a pretty good reputation. Stealth lasted a mere 3 years at PGA, where... rumor has it.. it experienced over a 50% downtime.

The Carowinds install came on the heels of an install of the first ever B&M Flying Coaster at neighboring Six Flags Over Georgia. The coaster at SFOG was immensely successful, and had minimal downtime thanks, in large part, to B&M's keen ability to take an idea such as Stealth, and perfect it in the most simplistic of ways.

Ironically, the cost of relocating to and re-assembling Stealth at PCow, was nearly the cost of an original install. It's not exactly an inexpensive option to reloacte rides from park to park. It's often treated just like a new install and must be budgeted appropriately. Also, transferring product from one property to another can often involve property taxes... so I am amazed that they went this route rather than scrapping it. But then SF parks did a rotational program for years with their rides. I think the infamous Flashback has had 4 or 5 locations through the years

[The Interpreter]

To which I would add that Stealth, like X Flight, needed to be moved from its original park for other reasons as well. PGA wanted an expanded waterpark and Stealth was in the way....Mr. Kinzel believes Geauga Lake has too large a footprint for the park....and X-Flight needs to go...

[fryler87]

I still stand by my post. X-Flight is coming from Cleveland, not California. It would slightly surprise me to hear that moving it from GL to KI would be similar in price as moving it from PGA to PC. Transporting anything anywhere isn't cheap, but when you're looking at barely a couple hundred versus a couple thousand, the cost differences are significant.

Good bit of information from Shaggy, though. Interesting.

Does Vekoma only manufacture in the Netherlands? It'd cost a pretty penny to ship overseas on an initial install...I just have an EXTREMELY difficult time believing that it would cost over 10 mil to move a 15 mil ride you already own, especially when you're shipping it about 200 miles. 7 mil I would believe in an instant, 9 is really pushing it.

I'd enjoy seeing the actual numbers just see how wrong I am.

[The Interpreter]

I would think that transportation costs are the least of the three major costs in this: demolition, transportation, and re-erection.

The first and last would form the bulk of the expenses in this transaction.

[italianchef]

I never rode X-Flight. So if it comes to Kings Island, it'll be very new to me.

Merry Christmas!

Italian Chef

[Kenban]

I would think since its on the ground and to my knowledge has never been painted before it might get a new paint job. X-Flight was designed for 3 trains which it was unable to run well with 3 trains at GL so the third train was used for parts. Its possible at KI the third train will return or be replaced by a new train (no clue how much was removed at some point its cheaper to replace the entire train).

I have heard that when Stealth was moved a lot of systems on the ride were replaced and upgraded. Which is from what I have read why the ride worked at Carowinds. I am not sure if these upgrades have already been done to X-Flight or not but if they have not been done I expect it will happen now.

I am not sure just how much its going to cost to move X-Flight but it would not surprise me if its going to be VERY expensive.

[HabloRM]

i would feel good

[DominatorDude11]

From the looks of the poll some people are getting a little desperate about getting rides lol. XFlight is the epitome of gimmick coaster if I've ever seen one lol.