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Everything posted by BeastForever

  1. As a follow-up to my comments expressed many pages back, I will say that using 2009 as a datapoint would be incredibly misleading, as that was the season directly following the Great Recession (with the Midwest hit especially hard). So its not surprising that attendance was so underwhelming for DB's debut season, where there had even been a decrease from the year prior... I would bet you that Cedar Fair took this into consideration when looking at the results from that year. And rest assured, as the economy recovered and people again had money to spend we saw surge in attendance in the years following 2010-2012 (gained +206,000 visitors over that span) One thing I think also needs mentioning is that there is another reason to install a big coaster besides just drawing in guests - a reason which I don't believed has been mentioned once thus far... That is, increasing the overall capacity of the park. While its great that relatively inexpensive family attractions such as Antique Cars and Flying Scooter rides garner such and appeal from families, and the marginal dollars spent on these perhaps stretch further than expensive thrill rides at bringing in guests, those rides typically leave much to be desired in terms of capacity... That is where the coasters and large flat rides come in.... Banshee gave 2 MILLION rides in 2014 and 1.66 million rides in 2015. We don't have publicly available ridership numbers past 2015, but I'd be surprised if its not still the most ridden ride on the park. Diamondback, even in spite of its bin and seatbelt hindrance, still remains a people eater albeit not as high capacity as Banshee. I'd imagine ridership is a critical variable that goes into the equation of evaluating the returns of a new attraction, an area where all coasters put in since 2009 have demonstrsably excelled at. When you have the attendance of KI, CP or CW etc. you can use as much capacity as you can get. So forget for a second what guests Banshee drew or supposedly didn't draw in its debut year. I think we could we agree that Action Zone was in desperate need of a headlining attraction to fill the void left by SOB and re-establish itself as a complete area of the park. The 2014 season may have seen only a modest increase in attendance (0.9%), but as @McSalsa wisely points out in this post, that year just so happened to coincide with the long-awaited re-opening of Kentucky Kingdom 2 hrs down the road, and thus may have temporarily siphoned off some of the guests from KI. Once again a confounding factor arises in the same year a $20+ million B&M is installed , misleading some to the tenuous conclusion that KI is ill-capable at turning the gates off thrills... Overall from 2014-2016, attendance climbed +178,000 guests. Granted, other additions were made in this span - most notably Woodstock Gliders and Tropical Plunge. How much of those guests were returning to ride Banshee for the first time? And how many of those guests consisted of families coming through the gates for the aformentioned scooter and brand new waterslides? We can't know for sure. But going off what I said earlier, more guests calls for more capacity, and a couple of kiddie/family rides and a slide complex is not really going move the needle in that realm. Enter Mystic Timbers. Another three train (thank you #shed) coaster which can accomodate overflow from Beast and DB... Putting in a non-flying B&M (on the former site of Vekoma flyer, fittingly enough) will be yet another marked improvement in capacity, and will give guests more than one reason to make the trek out to the area other than just FOF... ---- Finally, one caveat I would like to attach onto a lot of the things said above (as well as, virtually all speculation with regards to "returns" on major investments) is that we don't know all the of relevant and critical information needed to truly determine how well or not well an investment did. Only the park and corporate knows that (and those know do not say!)... Even numbers from TEA, might not necessarily be the best measure, as a lot of it, particularly for parks that don't release attendance numbers such as Cedar Fair, is based heavily on "professional estimation". There are some years where it shows a "net-zero" change in attendance at some parks. (KI 2012-13 ; CP 2016-176). Now what are the odds of that? So to make broad, unnuanced, claims such as "the ROI for Diamondback and Bashee was very weak" is rather irresponsible as you are making an overly declarative statement on something for which you probably don't have the insider information, and if you do, shouldn't be sharing it here... ----- What we CAN do however (and this is what I recommend) is approach these things more inductively and infer from what investments do or don't happen the success or lack thereof a park. For example, KD went eight years in between coasters and the drought was broken merely by a conversion/replacement of an existing coaster in Hurler. From that, I would surmise that it was I305 that indeed did have a relatively weak ROI. Or at least, it must not have been strong enough to warrant a big follow-up coaster like we've seen at KI, CW, and Carowinds. Also, KD already had a comparable ride collection to the aformentioned parks depsite having something like a million less visitors per year (?) I've heard. So not only did I305 not bring in the crowds they were hoping, but there's also not any strong urge or need to increase capacity. As for KI, I'm willing to give Cedar Fair benefit of the doubt and presume that results of the many investments they've made throughout their ownership have positive enough to warrant investing more. Like I've said before, if DB and Banshee weren't successful enough, then I guarantee they would not be going out of their way to put in yet another giant B&M, by which even if not a giga, we're still talking well over $20 million.... And finally finally (this is the end I promise) no one is saying CW, Carowinds, CGA, don't warrant the investments they are getting, but I believe your analysis of KI of rather short-sighted, and does not fully fo justice to their great strides that have been made (and might continue to be made). ----- Note: Most of whats written above is not necessarily a response to MiA Parkman per se, but more so the recurring narrative that I've come across through many areas of the interwebs in the past few months or so.
  2. Now, I'm not necessarily saying they are employing this, but there IS this concept called 'planned obsolescence' you know... Let me ask you this question. Suppose it was possible to develop a paint which indeed never, and I mean NEVER fades. Would it behoove a company's long-term interests to sell such a paint? Think about it.... (But honestly, I would say whatever paint they're using now is probably as high quality as it can get without being inordinately expensive. This paint has to go through sun, rain, snow, heat, cold 24/7/365. So yeah, its going to end up fading whereas most cars at least spend a great amount of their life protected in a garage.)
  3. But it doesn't necessarily have to be as tall as Fury in order to be universally loved or to put a park "on the map" (whatever that even means these days) I305 is the slowest, and shortest in height giga in the chain, and its many's favorite. As for Fury, its not necessarily its stats that make it superior to Leviathan and others. I believe that would have more to do with its imaginative and creative layout. That having said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they do go ahead and break previous chain records. At the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't. I suppose I would prefer to see some records broken, but if not, thats fine too...
  4. Fair points made on both sides however... What I'm bemused as to why there is outrage to this consdering they don't have to make any offer in the first place, and just because one group is positively affected (in this case, non-pass holders) does not necessarily mean another (pass holders) is ill-affected...
  5. And the irony is that Firehawk had many of those.
  6. Silver supports. Royal Blue track. (And so what if its like MF? That coaster is beautiful...)
  7. BeastForever

    RMC 2020

    I take it Mr. Hudson has not heard of, or does not care much for Cedar Point, Canada's Wonderland, or Carowinds....
  8. @KI FANATIC 37 Welcome back and we're glad to see you on this site again! It definitely is great to bask in speculation/decoding once again! Speaking of speculation however, it just so turns that you may have walked in at not the best time.... Coincidentally enough, I was just in the middle of writing why I disagree with what you (and others) have said earlier! ........... Really? You don't see why anyone would do that? And you don't see any pros for keeping it? First off, It is by no means unprecedented to reuse old queues/stations. See Vortex, El Toro, Maverick etc. the list goes on. Honestly, I'm a little surprised by the amount of people clamoring for the removal of Firehawk's old queue... To me, reusing the queue and photobooth seems like a no-brainer. If the queue needs more capacity then they can expand it accordingly. And I'm sure that they can find a way to make it look very appealing even with reusing these things. They can build some kind monument/fountain similiar to what is found on Leviathan similiar to what is found in the middle of X-Base walkway. If not that something similiar to Banshee's signage. Really its in the most rational place you could put the queue for this coaster assuming the station starts in Firehawk's plot. Why needlessly tear down a queue just to rebuild in approximately the same place? ~$50,000 may seem small compared to $30M, but its not nothing. Thats $50,000 (or whatever it would cost) that can be used elsewhere...
  9. This has been perhaps the most tired and flimsy narrative relating to this topic (what the guy from reddit said). It has resurfaced time and time again, on this site, on others, in YouTube comments sections etc. But to me it just doesn't hold up. Let me explain... Yes, while it is true that CW and Carowinds are growing at faster rates than KI, this should not be conflated with "they have surpassed" or even met up with KI in terms of Cedar Fair's hierarchy. As you pointed out, KI already has remarkable attendance as it is, more than enough attendance to justify a giga. For the record, as of 2016, KI alone makes up 14% of CF's revenue, CW's share was 10%, and Carowinds 7-8%. In other words, even with CW and Carowinds expanding, they've still got some catching up to do before they can even get to KI's level . Remember, Cedar Fair WANTED Kings Island more than any other park. IIRC Paramount used this as leverage to rid themselves of the chain wholesale in 2006, forcing Cedar Fair to buy all five of the parks. I wouldn't be surpirsed if they'd have bought some of the others anyway, but it was paramount (pun not intended) that they acquire KI. In fact, Cedar Fair even tried to purchase Kings Island as early as 2000. Reportedly, it fell through because of a $40 million dollar tax liability that would have been contigent upon the sale (Source). Kinzel himself described it as "his favorite park outside the Cedar Fair system". --- Ok, and now on to the wing coaster theory.... So first off, there's the fact that the land clearing at this point has become way too big for what a conventional wing would take up. And then there's Mike Koontz specifically saying he's requested a giga at Coasterstock 2018. (For those of you wondering where exactly he said this: https://youtu.be/I3BxfbjxMgc?t=1304) AND there's the simple fact that a wing coaster from the general public's perspective would not be all that different from Banshee (large, graceful inversions, vest restraints). The same could be said for a giga to an extent, but CF has proven with Fury and Leviathan that they're OK with having a B&M hyper and giga coexist in the same park. -- But even if that's not enough... Depending on how you look at it, wing coasters actually are much worse value than a 6000ft + giga would be, particularly if we're going by $ divided by track length (I know, odd metric - but it explains my point). GateKeeper: $25 million / 4,164 ft = $6003.84 per foot of track Fury: $30 million / 6,602 ft = $4544.07 per foot of track My thoughts exactly. If KI doesn't warrant significant investment into a new thrill ride (as some are claiming), then why in the world would they be building any coaster at all? We know its a B&M, and almost any B&M these days is bound to be well over $20 million (sans Dive and maybe floorless), so they might as well go the extra mile for something that will have much longer-lasting value than a wing coaster. Wings are partially reliant on novelty IMO - novelty which diminishes... Its the giant sit-down coasters found in hypers and gigas that stand the test of time. Going off of what was mentioned above about Millie. Its in its 20th year of operation, and its still by many accounts the signature attraction of Cedar Point (I know a decent amount of GP who still prefer it over SV).
  10. ^I dunno about. Floorless and wings are actually pretty different experiences to me.
  11. I'm with agreement a great much. Hoping also I am of a lot and more post come from the user!
  12. ^ To answer your question, I wouldn't think so... Or at least, I don't envision a coaster coming to any of the other top 7 parks next year except KI. 2018: CP - Steel Vengeance KD - Twisted Timbers KBF - Hangtime CGA - Railblazer 2019: Carowinds: Copperhead Strike CW: Yukon Striker 2020: KI - B&M The timeline is fully in our favor atm.
  13. But herein lies the problem. I don't think that what you're suggesting is nearly as simple as it sounds... First off, IIRC, hasn't RMC stated they only do topper-track ground up? (ie. if they're going to alter an existing ride, it has to be I-box) I'm skeptical as to whether 'partial RMC treatment' even exists. Or at least, if it does, it has not come into fruition, and for good reason. If you have woodie with some rough patches but is otherwise well-functioning , that's what GCI is for... Even if they were to reprofile certain areas with topper track, they would likely need to significantly alter the design of it in order to fit the guaging and style of the conventionally built track all ready there. It would also need to conform to the PTCs too instead of RMC's own specially designed trains. AND, this isn't even considering the added speed potentially putting undue stress on the structure and/or throw off the calculus of the rest of the layout. We can only imagine...but as you may have heard, Dennis Spiegel, along with a select group of park higher-ups/managers/engineers can tell you EXACTLY what the hill after the first drop was like without the two sets of brakes beforehand. Lest we forget, those brakes are there for a VERY GOOD REASON. This isn't about "preserving the integrity of the ride" as much as it about what's wise from an investment standpoint. It doesn't make sense to try out all these risky alterations in an attempt to "fix" something that isn't truly broken in the first place. As has been mentioned time and time and time again, the park likely would be better off just building something ground up - whether that be an RMC or something different altogether.
  14. https://www.visitkingsisland.com/blog/2019/april/state-of-ohio-recognizes-the-beast’s-40th-birthday "STATE OF OHIO RECOGNIZES The Beast’S 40TH BIRTHDAY"
  15. Ugh. Anything but green. Raptor...Hydra...Hulk... All BLECH! (In my opinion, especially when they fade...) And Ka is no looker either. Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of blue. Either a tried-and-true MF blue, if not... (No offense to UC fans out there, but I think these colors would look awesome )
  16. ^ Um, aren't we forgetting a certain coaster? There was a "TTD" (lol) built in the US just two years later after the "orginal TTD" which has OTSRs.... What's it called again? hmmm..... But with that said though, restraint tech has come along way for seemngly all manufacturers, Intamin included... The third "TTD" (Red Force) went back to having lap restraints only (albeit not in the US.)
  17. Personally I'm not completely ruling out floorless, wing, or dive, but I just don't think they're as likely as the Giga (per GM Koontz request to Cedar Fair board), and other reasons. I am ruling out flyer though, for the reason stated below....
  18. So I guess I'll spare you the romantics (well, for now at least ) as you know obviously know where I stand... and just cut to some of my favorite shots I've taken...
  19. Don't skip out on Cedar Downs! Fun and very unique carousel.
  20. ^ I would say that depends really on how its designed/how the strong the links are. Steel Dragon for example, switches to another chain midway up its hill. But evidently, B&M has been able to make it work for 300+ feet in height using just one. Or at least, let's just say that if Fury can be 325 ft tall with just one chain, I would imagine that they could make it work for 326 ft. (But preferably 330 ft so it can be a whole 100ft taller than DB )
  21. Not be blunt, but I cannot for the life of me understand why some are thinking that a flyer is within the reasonable realm of possibilities. If this means anything, the flying concept has been available for nearly two decades now, and Cedar Fair has yet to originally install one (X-Flight opened under Six Flags). I'd think it be even more unlikely that they start on this concept at a park that just removed one. (And for this same reason, I'm skeptical as to whether we will see a flyer (albeit a B&M one) installed at CP or any CF park for this matter). Personally, I give the chance of a flyer at KI about the same chance of a stand-up. Which is to say - practically zero. Banshee - while there was just a modest increase in attendance (+0.9) seen from its debut year, as far as ridership goes, it actually performed incredibly well - took in over 2,000,000 riders. Also there was a huge jump in attendance in 2015 (+2.9). While that year also saw the additions of Woodstock Gliders, and Snoopy's Space Buggies, I can imagine a good amount of those extra attendees were going to experience Banshee for the first time after perhaps not having been able to make it out to KI the year before. Either way, the situation is most certainly not "stagnant" Mystic Timbers - As noted above, 2017 was a particularly strong year for KI. While there were other factors at play, I would surmise based on how well-received the ride was by the average guest, it was a driving factor. And its intectually dishonest to call it "one of the most expensive wooden coasters" (Do you mean in park history, or industry-wide?). First off, as of a few years ago, Cedar Fair no longer releases official investment numbers on rides, as they consider it propriety. There is a number floating around on Wikipedia claiming "$15,000,000" but I take with that with less than a grain of salt as there was not a reference attached to that claim. Based on similiar rides and with inflation, I'd estimate MT to have cost somewhere between $10-12 million. Prowler for example, which opened in 2009, cost about $8 million. Typical GCIs are relatively inexpensive to large B&Ms such as DB ($22m) and Banshee ($24m). As for 2018? Yes, the park did have a disappointing year. However, this was not unique to KI, but chainwide - even at CP amidst opening Steel Vengeance. Barring the economy retracting significantly this upcoming summer, I'd predict a bounce-back year, particularly at KI with the long-awaited return of Antique Cars. While I will not deny there has sort of been an 'entitlement' aspect to all of this - almost to the point where it feels like were "owed" something (even though were not "owed" anything) - I'd say there's been plenty of legitimate circumstancial evidence to hypothesize a giga. I mean after all, there's way to have "legitimate proof" until its announced or if/when blueprints get leaked. Let me put it this way... Suppose that GM Mike Koontz didn't say at Coasterstock last year that he recommended a giga to the board, and there weren't NOC documents filed listing B&M for years 2018-2020, and that it wasn't true that KI outranks both CW and Carowinds (parks which both have a hyper and giga each) by a large margin in revenue ? Then yes, I guess you could see it as being 'built up by the fans more than legitimate proof'. But this simply isn't the case... Hype surrounding SOB 2.0 last summer? Now THAT was built up entirely by the fans. But project giga? Not nearly as much... Well, the thing is Mr. Koontz already had said that he recommended a giga to Cedar Fair. Therefore, you're implying the GM was unwise in doing so!
  22. ^That would be another one. But there's not many of them, and like I said I think that has to do with parks wanting to have the marketable floorless concept instead. Really, I'm indifferent to sitting and floorless. Like I said, I'm pretty sure they're the same coaster - just with different trains. A plus of having sitting trains is that you don't need the large mechanical floor to drop from under the train and come back again repeatedly.
  23. Ugh, tell me about! I heard a certain Youtuber (not gonna name names) refer to MT as a good ride, "but more of a family-style GCI", which really doesn't even make sense considering that compared to its GCI contemporaries, Mystic actually stacks up very well stats-wise. In fact... So there you have it. Despite the often spouted rhetoric of Mystic being a statistically underwhelming coaster... its actually the second tallest GCI to date, and among the fastest. So my question is if MT is "just a family coaster" then what does make of Gold Striker, Prowler, Renegade, Lightning Racer, Apocalypse etc.? Because MT is right up there with the biggest and fiercest of them. To those who found MT underwhelming, that is fine that's your opinion. But I take you're just not impressed by GCIs in general? If so, then you could probably consider yourself apart of a quite slim minority - of both GP and of enthusiasts - that doesn't love a tried-and-true GCI.
  24. These are all the B&M coaster models. The ones X'ed out are what I'm personally ruling out beyond reasonable doubt... Reasons to rule out: Invert: See Banshee Sitting: While I certainly wouldn't object, I'd be surprised if they went with this model and forgo the marketable "gimmick" of floorless trains. They're practically the same type of coasters anyway, just with different trains. Stand-up: HA! That's a good one... Family [Invert]: See Flying Ace Flying: Just removed Firehawk. Possibilities still in play: Wing or Dive: Many are ruling these out because of the presence of GateKeeper and Valravn, but I will ask this... Does anyone else feel like we take too much stock in the supposed proximity "issue" so commonly cited. After all, the presence of Raptor didn't stop Banshee. And if GK and Valravn would supposedly stop a wing or dive from happening, why wouldn't Rougarou then rule out a floorless? Is it because GK and Valravn are both still "too new" for KI to receive something similar, while Raptor and Rougarou are/were "old enough"? Is it because Inverts and Floorlesses are more of staples while Wings and Dives are more of novelties? Or am I answering my own question? Floorless: While you can't go wrong with a floorless, it just wouldn't seem like the blockbuster addition that KI would want. And if this means anything, the park's lineup currently features 20 total inversions, which puts them at being among the most in the world (https://rcdb.com/ib.htm). Any looping coaster would just be adding more to something we already have plenty of. Hyper [Giga]: This remains to me as the most likely candidate.
  25. That's funny you mention that, because in a way, they actually did do joint work at one time. Walter Bolliger and Claude Mabillard were former Intamin employees! Which helps to explain why Intamin track used to look like this, and why B&M track looks as it does today... https://www.google.com/search?q=batman+the+escape&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnqJ-pmPvgAhWEMd8KHbr1A74Q_AUIDygC&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=ptYZEIRw8UfL8M:
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