BeastForever

I'd say its important to note that Steel Vengeance happened in large part due to the opportunity they had with Mean Streak's infrastructure, and being at the right time in terms of RMC's technology. I would argue the same for Iron Gwazi to an extent. Under different circumstances, RMC Son of Beast could have happened (if it had gone defunct later, did not have pre-existing issues etc.) I wouldn't consider GateKeeper or Valravn to be anymore "game-changing" than anything KI has gotten under Cedar Fair. @SonofBaconatorI understand your point of CP being more destination and CW and Carowinds having more growth potential than KI, but sort of disagree on what significance this plays with regards what kinds of coasters parks have gotten in recent years. For the sake of argument, look at the totality of all the coasters Cedar Fair has built post-Maverick and you could argue that the play-it-safe trend has been more or less the case for every park, and with almost all the "records" broken being highly categorical. (and to be fair I believe the industry as a whole has been like this, as naturally there's going to be less and less records to break and less innovations to be made) At Kings Island we've seen: Diamondback, Banshee, Mystic Timbers, Orion Carowinds: Intimidator, Fury, Copperhead Strike CW: Behemoth, Leviathan, WMG, Yukon Striker Overall, I don't really see a difference in terms of ambition or "groundbreakedness". Yes, Orion did not turn out as statistically impressive as Fury, but if they cost roughly the same, one would think there had to have been some extenuating circumstance that kept it from being so. (Circumstances which, while have been much discussed/speculated, IIRC KIGhostguy's will shed some light on this). I wouldn't consider any of the B&M giga coasters to be truly risky investments since we know B&M's track record of not trying something new until they're entirely certain it will work. That having said, if you consider that KI has gotten 4 major ground-up coasters from 2009-2020, compared to 3 at Carowinds 2010-2019 and 3 at CW 2008-2019, you could argue that KI has actually been built up more than the two aforementioned parks. If you were to sum the cost of the four ground-up coasters we've gotten compared to the cost of Carowinds, CW and CP's major coasters they've gotten over that same time span, its about the same if not slightly more. I know you've said that you're happy with what we get, and I would agree that I'm happy as well. But I just feel like you're selling it a little short.

I had a feeling that one or both of those may have been taller. However, the omission of their height stats led me to infer that their terrain/elevation changes were more significant thus making the height more or less irrelevant. But upon further looking at them, I can see that they're a bit taller than I had thought.

Adding to this, its pretzel knot is currently the only example of such in the world (the only other instance of this element - Moonsault Scramble at Nagashima Spaland). Its also the only B&M invert with an in-line twist. And on the topic of terrain, it manages to be the fastest B&M and gravity-powered invert despite not being the tallest.

While this would technically fall under the realm of covers, I always thought this could be part of a movie soundtrack - an epic western or pirate one. (and yes, the title is a reference to Pirates of the Caribbean)

And on that note, this is the impossible-to-escape box that we were put into with regards to Orion - one which, by its design we we're bound to draw some ire from the outside community, regardless of what our opinion on Orion was going to be. On one hand, if we shower with it praise and are overwhelmingly positive, well then we're just "fanboys" blinded by love for our park, and unable to look at it objectively. But on the other, if we dare posit any criticism of the ride or display any negative sentiment whatsoever (despite the fact that one could be mostly positive otherwise), well then it's PROOF that… “Ugh...KI fans are just SO entitled and are not happy with their $30M B&M!” And often that leads into the "(insert park here) hasn't gotten a coaster in X years, and their fans would be SO much more grateful for it than KI fans", attack... Therefore, there really was just no way for the us to get through this coaster speculation/construction/opening cycle without being dragged through the mud in some way, shape, or form. To be honest, this kind of happens to some extent every time around. And I guarantee it will happen next time... Now as for the supposition that us KI fans somehow are uniquely "entitled" or (insert negative adjective of choice here), more so than fanbases of other parks? I can’t say I agree with that all. Look at almost any major coaster/ride announcement at basically any park, and you will find a portion of enthusiasts that react to it perhaps more negatively than they should. As many of us know, there were a sizable number of Cedar Point fans who, when Maverick was announced, were either negative on it or at least somewhat skeptical of a ride that, from first looks of it, did not seem like anything that could live up to the legacies of Millennium Force, TTD, Magnum etc. And sure enough the rest is history as we all know how Maverick is regarded today. But do I hold that over their heads (those who were negative on Maverick at their announcement)? Of course not, because frankly I just do not understand the allure of ridiculing or making generalizations of other park’s fanbases for them not being “adequately grateful” for the actions of a profit-maximizing, publicly traded, multi-billion dollar corporation. While it is true that the parks do not inherently “owe” enthusiasts anything (in terms of special privileges, events, coasters built specifically for us) It is also true that we don’t owe them unconditional praise for everything they do. Now, obviously its generally a good thing to err on the side of optimism, and focus on the positives in things (as is the case for life in general), there’s most certainly nothing in wrong in giving honest critiques, questioning some of parks’ decisions, and wishing some things related to certain rides, attractions, operations etc. were done differently. If there is one thing I’m not a fan of in the enthusiast community, it’s infighting. And I think the solution to this is to just try as best you can to not make generalizations of other park’s fanbases – generalizations which, usually are just based on observing a few outliers or bad apples and applying their behavior to the group as a whole. In conclusion, the narrative that the KI community is somehow uniquely guilty in the enthusiast cardinal sin of "entitlement" is just utter bunk, in my opinion. I could point to countless examples of times where some fans within other parks' fanbases (beyond the Maverick thing) reacted negatively to new rides when they were announced and/or before they've ridden them. But I am not going to, because as I said earlier I just don't believe that is conducive to well... anything, and I think all it leads to is unneeded animosity.

I will say, I was not expecting this much negativity surrounding the unthinkable reality of Intamin... my goodness... borrowing ideas from other manufacturers. As in, this is literally how the industry, and any industry ever has worked. It's even more shocking considering how many concepts and influences other manufacturers have gotten from Intamin. As I detailed in an earlier post, its the just the way of the game for competing entities to offer very similar products. Look at all the Mack Rides that have been built in the past decade that are strikingly similar to so many rides Intamin has made. Look at Storm at Etnaland (2013) and Alpina Blitz at Nigloland (2014) and you'll see they're almost indistinguishable from Intamin's Mega-lites, a concept that came out just a few years prior. Zierer has made some coasters (Wicked at Lagoon, Impulse at Knoebels) that are basically the same concept as Gerstlauer's Euro-fighter/Infinity coasters. GCI is following RMC's lead of wanting to incorporate launches and inversions on future rides. I could list many more, but you get the point. And even if some of these are "exactly the same" as others. Who cares? I'm sure if the parks/chains feel the same way than that will will be reflected in them not purchasing said concept over the original. I also find it silly that as much as its bemoaned Intamin getting overly-ambitious in their designs and thus compounding their existing reputation of unreliability, we then lampoon them for trying to be more grounded and sticking more to what works?

They are, but typically don't accelerate nearly as fast as the Compressed Air and Hydraulic systems, which is why made sure to specify those two for comparison. Intamin is doing quite well in the LSM market.

It was an over-ambitious design, certainly, and I suppose Intamin gets the W when it comes 100mph+ launch coasters, as they have made 4 successful ones to S&S's one (Dodonpa). S&S definitely bit of more than they can chew with ringracer (and would agree that the mechanical problems in turn compounded the financial problems). They've dialed it back since then, and I would say they've generally redeemed themselves with a wave of refined ~80 mph launchers. They've sold four compressed air coasters since ring racer (https://rcdb.com/r.htm?order=8&ot=2&el=12164), and of the two of those already built and in operation (the other two under construction, set to open this year) I've not heard of any major issues or incidents related to them. Again, I'm not saying S&S Compressed Air coasters or Freespins have issues or run into downtime. They do, but one would think they're at least somewhat less problematic than Zacspins and Accelerator coasters. Otherwise, the former would not have outsold the latter.

The reason for ring racer's closure had more so had to do with financial problems. The coaster was set to open the following season, but Nurburgring went bankrupt in 2014, and their successors deemed the ride "not economically viable" to operate. (not enough attendance/revenue to justify the costs). Galeforce is merely just a one-off coaster at this point. The issues with that ride I'm sure are not weighing on Cedar Fair's mind when deciding to put in an S&S Freespin at KD. I should emphasize that in no way did I say S&S's has run into problems as well. They have. They most definitely have. But its all just about what poses less risk, and all things considered, S&S appears to have less of it (for their rides that are comparable to Intamin - namely Compressed Air vs. Hydraulic Launch, Freespin vs. Zacspin)

I should clarify that I'm aware that S&S and some other manufacturers certainly run into their issues, and would agree that any concept more ambitious or groundbreaking is going to result in more problems on average than a concept that already is worked. B&M and GCI avoid many issues simply by not trying out something untested unless they're fully confident it will work. Slowly, but surely, B&M warmed up to the idea of making 300ft+ coasters and launched coasters, and GCI it appears is following in RMC's footsteps of utilizing launches and inversions. So I guess the answer to that question could be that parks see S&S as the less objectionable choice. I'm aware that many of S&S's coasters are not exactly paragons of reliability either, but presumably the the Compressed Air Launch coasters are at least somewhat less problematic than Accelerator Coasters. Otherwise there would not have been 7 of them purchased since 2011 compared to 0 new Accelerator Coasters since 2010. The S&S Freespins are heavy on maintenance issues too but presumably less so that Intamin Zacspin (and seem to get better reviews). There have been 10 Freespins built/purchased since 2015, compared to 0 new Zacspins since GL in 2011. RMC's have their issues as well. But again, the "watch what they do" theory would have it that parks that want high-tech wooden coasters see RMC Topper Track as the more desirable choice to Intamin Plug n' Play, other wise there would have been at least one more of the latter built since 2008 (T Express), instead of four of the former since 2013 (Outlaw Run). I can't claim to know all the motives, rationales, or reasons, to why parks have built what they do, but if we're going of the assumption that they're doing whats in their best interest, then one could conclude that the rivals to many of Intamin's products are more desirable from an overall value perspective factoring in operating/maintenance costs, reliability, etc.

As a follow-up to what I've said earlier on Intamin's portfolio being very closely mimicked by other firms, it is for this reason that I'm skeptical as to why it is so imperative to Intamin fans that Cedar Fair buy an another product from them, when there are many Intamin-like coasters offered from other manufacturers now. There was a time why I was somewhat on the bandwagon of wanting an Intamin coaster built at Kings Island someday, but like I've said things have changed, and competing companies have evolved to the point where I'm honestly indifferent at this point. If there are two types of coaster that I'd always dreamed of coming to KI they would be a blitz coaster or Accelerator coaster. It wasn't too long ago that Intamin was the only company that could offer such attractions, but... Then came Blue Fire in 2009 - Mack's answer to the next generation of launched coasters that Maverick inspired. Then came Extreme Rusher in 2011. S&S fixes the problems Hypersonic suffered from and a new wave of ~80mph+ launchers are set in motion, that offer experiences similar to the problematic hydraulic system (which to Intamin's credit even they've abandoned). -- Long story short, name almost any type/model of Intamin coaster and a fairly similar ride can be named from another another manufacturer.

On that note, I'd say the biggest obstacle to CF ever working with Intamin again is that even if Intamin does go several years with better reliability and no major incidents, at this point there's just no real need to work with Intamin since almost every one of their products has had a substitute or equivalent made by somebody else. In the 2000s, Intamin was the only company one could turn to for a lot of things, so I think that afforded some leeway from parks who were willing to put up with the issues/risk. However, in the last ten years: - B&M now makes giga coasters - Mack now makes mega-lites, blitz coasters, and full-out 200ft + mega coasters - RMC's Topper Track has made the demand for plug n' play woodies effectively obsolete - Gerstlauer makes Infinity coasters, which could be viewed as a response to Fahrenheit (which in turn could be viewed as a response to Gerstlauer's Eurofighters) - S&S has refined their compressed air launch system to be the successor to Intamin's hydraulically-launched accelerator coasters. Also, their freespins have replaced Intamin's Zacspin as the compact 4D coaster of choice - Even Vekoma has drastically upgraded their portfolio, which now includes rides (Lech, Abyssus) that can be seen as competitors to many Intamin-like coasters. Seemingly, all the things that were exclusive or nearly exclusive to Intamin can now be purchased elsewhere, and often as more reliable and safer alternatives. That having said, I should note that isn't to say Intamin is doomed as a company by any means. They just don't have the edge they once had... To coaster sally's point I would actually agree that the "downfall of Intamin" narrative is a bit overblown. Sure, they are not as prevalent as they used to be in the US market but there are still are a LOT of major Intamin coasters going up elsewhere in the world. They're just in places that us as North American enthusiasts naturally don't have much attention invested into. And as mentioned earlier SeaWorld and Universal are still interested in Intamin. A quick glance at rcdb shows that from 2015-2020 they've averaged about 7-8 coasters per year, which is surprisingly similar to what their overall output was prior to their decline in the US market. Although Cedar Fair and Six Flags have made it clear that they've no interest anymore to work with Intamin, to Intamin's credit they seem to be doing just fine business-wise in spite of that.

Well, I will say the phrase "game-changing", as many things do, needs defining. I would argue that depending on what you qualify as such, the level of game-changing in industry in general has declined as time has gone on (less parts of "the game" left that need changed) I'd say Cedar Fair 2008-Present is focused more on letting other parks/chains try out new concepts, and refining said concepts as they see fit. Even for CP this is true. Note that SV happened a full seven years after the first RMC Conversion in NTG (2011), and as "game-changing" as on might think it to be it only marginally claimed its hybrid height/speed records from Iron Rattler (which opened in 2013). And its speed/height already have been surpassed by Zadra and Iron Gwazi, which very well could be slightly one-upped sometime in the next few years as well. GateKeeper and Valravn are similiar stories, in that they weren't the firsts of their kind either, claimed slight categorical records, only to have those records surpassed shortly thereafter (Valravn's by CF themselves - Yukon Striker.) Ironically, I would argue if there are two records that are to stand for quite some time, it would be the ones KI currently has - longest wooden and longest invert (especially longest wooden).

Another unfortunate reality of all this is that had things went as normal, a strong year in 2020 would have helped further bury that age-old canard of "Kings Island doesn't do well when they build major coasters".

To be perfectly honest, I don't entirely disagree with coaster sally that it'd be interesting to see a non-B&M come to KI as our next coaster. It would be interesting, as it was in 2017 when a new GCI came about after two consecutive B&Ms. But apparently Mystic Timbers is "lower-tier", so...

If the seating assignments go the way that I'm thinking (every other), wouldn't there be 3 non-wheel seats? 2-2, 4-2, and 6-2? Or are they designating 6-3 in order to accommodate backseat requests? (despite 6-2 being the better seat all things considered) Going off what silver2005 said, where you sit relative to the front of the train is not nearly as relevant as to where you sit within each of the individual cars, with regards to smoothness. For example, seats 4-2, 5-2, 6-2 will usually be smoother than 1-3, 2-3, or 3-3. The same applies for two-bench PTCs (which are all wheel seats, technically). I've had 6-1 rides on Voyage that were smoother than 1-2 rides. Now obviously with the blocked off rows this year, it removes a lot of the seat selection, but if you do have to opt for a wheel seat, go for the front-wheel seat (of car, not neccessarily train) as opposed to the back-wheel.

I really wouldn't take any serious stock in it. All the rides referenced there are space/aeronautical/ or celestial-themed in some way, shape, or form, which FOF clearly fits into. Its just a coincidence that KI has a lot of retired rides that fall into this realm. Setting aside easter eggs if I were to speculate the ride's future I'd say its safe for any forseeable future. For reference, none of its sister rides in Poltergeist, Joker's Jinx, Crazy Cobra, or KD's Flight of Fear have closed yet. And I'd imagine KI would want to keep it going for at least a good while longer, given its importance to Area 72/Orion.

I might be able to clarify this (or at least, I'll try)... The "rattling" that you hear is not the same as the occasional vibrations/shuffling you feel on Diamondback. The sounds that it makes at the bottom of its drops are the ARB's (or, "chain dogs") bouncing up on the chassis of the train. However, that sound is not unique to Diamondback. It is my understanding that every sit-down B&M can exhibit these noises to some extent, but they are especially pronounced on their hypers with 16 x 2 trains. At about 1:04 you'll find Behemoth sounding very similiar to DB Similar story for Intimidator, at 1:54... The ARBs bouncing are also not all that contingent on how new the ride is. Here is some footage from 2009 where you'll find DB making virtually the same sounds as it does now: Source: Former member thedevariouseffect had a very thorough explanation of this phenomenon back in 2014. There's a lot of good info contained in here, and I'd say he was fairly knowledgeable as he had many years in ride op experience. Definitely a great read, and would recommend to anyone wanting to learn more:

The key word here: externality. Externalities are any side effect or consequence put on someone not directly involved in the act being partaken in, and can be positive or negative. We all know that there are many other things people do outside of smoking that are harmful to their health. But the effect on the individual him/herself is not what's relevant here. Its the costs of smoking borne onto others... There is no negative externality of someone eating food, within the context of the park, for example. As for alcohol, its externality would be the potentially belligerent and/or disorderly behavior that results from it. If handled responsibly, there should be no negative effects inflicted upon others, but that is a risk you inherently take by allowing people to drink within the park. However, as it pertains to smoking, I'm afraid that there's really no way one can 100% mitigate the negative externalities caused by it. As mentioned before, even when done in the smoking areas, the clouds tend to carry over to the main midways, at least to some extent. And then of course there are those who will skirt the rules entirely and smoke in line next to others who have no choice but to breathe it in. It will be interesting to see how this new policy goes, and while I'm skeptical as to whether there will be a significant increase in enforcement in the smoking policies, I can only hope that there will be. -- That having said, by no means am I trying to contribute to any sort of 'anti-smoker rhetoric', or trying to put them down. We all have our vices. I don't hate smokers, just the smoking itself...

So... the phrase "borrowed time" has been thrown around a lot with regards to discussion on Invertigo's future. However, its based on the premise that Vekoma does not support the Inverted Boomerang Model anymore; or its replacement parts would be inordinately expensive... For the record, there are 2 other operating Invertigos in the world: one last relocated in in 2012 and the other 2015. That having said, while I would agree that Invertigo leaving sometime in the next 10 years certainly seems likely, I wouldn't think lack of availability of replacements would be the problem. Besides, I can imagine many of its parts are cross-compatible with the SLC model (for which there are dozens in the world).

To be honest, I actually preferred many of the Beach's slides to those of most parks, if even for their uniqueness. That having said, their uniqueness (along with their age, I'm sure) is part of what would make them so difficult to relocate into a different park. A lot of them utilize uneven terrain and therefore, couldn't easily be transplanted.

I think what IndyGuy getting at is don't make statements that the casual (ie. GP or Media) person might interpret as a "dangererous situation" when it in vast likelihood it is not. Therefore, instead of saying "riders are stuck on lift hill", it'd be more wise to phrase it as "train has stopped on the lift". The latter at least removes person-hood from the situation (and therefore, the connotation of there being "impending danger"). That having said, for good measure it'd probably be wisest to just not try to describe why its down so the wrong person doesn't misread/misinterpret what's going on and potentially twist it into something its not. Just my 2 cents...

I hope so too! That having said, if anything I'd think the 1, 3, 5, 8 configuration I've mentioned would be more in the interest of social distancing anyway. Since, an even number of rows implies there's going to be an extra "wasted" row, might as well put that row somewhere other than the very back or very front. On another note, I wonder how seating for Racer and Beast (or any coaster with 3- bench trains) will go. If anything, one could make the case that the gap between the cars would be enough to qualify as "appropriately" distanced, and thus the capacity could be cut by just a third instead of by half. The trade-off to this however, is no middle (non-wheel) seats on any of the cars. We'll just have to wait and see...

I'd predict that is what they'll do since their would be four available rows either way. It should go... Rows 1, 3, 5, 8 as opposed to 1, 3, 5, 7.

PTC = Philadelphia Toboggan Company (or Coasters). The defunct ride/coaster company that built Racer and Woodstock Express. Upstops are the wheels that run underneath the rails of the track, to keep the train from flying off. EDIT: My mistake. Always forget they're not defunct, as they do make trains, just not full-scale coasters anymore...