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Most of the GP won't have the same frame of reference as enthusiasts. So while most here may find it relatively rough and uncomfortable, casuals like me, who are more likely to compare it to something like Invertigo, are going to think it glides like a dream. I haven't ridden it this year, but I've never had any complaints about Banshee. Honestly, until it starts to rattle like Invertigo, I suspect this is a complete non-issue for the park or B&M.

I have no insights as to why those features would have been removed. My guess is that they stopped functioning properly, and the park didn't see fixing them as a high priority. The tunnel sprayers were definitely a fun part of the attraction. I love White Water Canyon. I have so many memories of riding it as a kid, sometimes waiting for 2 hours on a hot day. Since the line was mostly through a wooded area, it was a nice way to break up the day and cool down. These days I skip the water rides. The wet shoes just aren't worth it to me anymore. I can't remember the last time I rode WWC, Amazon Falls or the log flume. As much as I wish they hadn't taken out the keelboats, I probably wouldn't ride them anymore, either.

I don't think it's a matter of park profitability so much as, are they making enough to service their debt. They already had considerable debt, and just took on another billion in the spring. So while it's nice that they're not losing money by opening the parks, operating income is critically low. CF is most likely big enough to weather a lost year like this through a combination of belt tightening and kicking the debt can down the road. But they're going to need several big years to get back on track, or else their future plans will likely look a lot different.

While the announcement doesn't specifically say the park will be closed on Fridays, it does say the tricks and treats fall fest is only on Saturdays and Sundays. So I would assume that means no Friday operations, at least for the public. I didn't realize they had moved closing from 1 to midnight. Was that new this year? I could have sworn it was always 1 in the past, although I rarely made it that late. The general vibe I got from the announcement and the link on their website was that this was going to be mostly a kid and family oriented event. I only said 5 or 6 because I believe that's when the kid and family stuff ended and haunt began in the past. If it's mostly just the usual October schedule minus the evening portion, that makes it a lot less intriguing for me. But I'll still probably try to get there for a full day on a Saturday, just because of how much I enjoy being there in the fall.

I'd be happy if the fall fest/family event they mentioned essentially means just normal park operations on Saturdays and Sundays in October. I have no use for any of the seasonal activities they have planned, just like I have no use for the haunt-related activities and attractions. But I do love visiting the park in the fall when the weather is cooler and the leaves are starting to turn. If I can go then and still ride everything I normally would (other than water rides), that would be just about perfect for me. I assume they won't stay open until 1 like with haunt, but given that it gets dark earlier, even if they can keep it open until 9 or 10, that would give a nice amount of time for night rides. My suspicion is that since this is a family oriented event, they'll end up closing at 5 or 6. Even still, I'd be content with that.

I agree with everything you said, but especially this. ^^^ Along those same lines, though, I find it hard to fathom being upset or offended by anything someone says about the park or its fans in a youtube video. Granted, I am in no way an enthusiast, at least the way most of the regulars here would be. I love KI, and have been going there for 35 years. But I usually only go once or twice a year. I don't travel around the country to visit other parks (with the exception of a rare CP or HW trip). And while I enjoy reading about KI and other parks here on KIC, I usually don't participate in the discussions. I don't visit any other enthusiast communities besides this one. But I watched the video review that inspired this thread, and regardless of whether his claims about people sucking up to KI for access can be substantiated, and even though I know he wasn't talking about people like me, I still can't imagine being offended by anything he said. I haven't ridden Orion, but even just reading all the reviews here, there's a substantial amount of people who think it's a step below some of the other gigas. So while it may not necessarily be true or fair, I can understand why someone would come away with the opinion that people who are over the top in their praise of Orion are KI fanboys with ulterior motives. I suppose I could see being offended if that accusation struck a nerve or hit a little too close to home. But I don't believe that's the case for the overwhelming majority of posters here. As an outsider, it feels like there's a good mix of all sorts of opinions here, good, bad, and indifferent. And I have a hard time believing any of them are dishonest. So I guess my point is that I don't think the honest review guy was talking about anyone here. Maybe I'm naive or completely off the mark. I think he had a lot of good things to say about Orion and KI in general. His opinion is also just one of many. It doesn't carry any more or less weight just because he publishes it on youtube. I didn't interpret his review as an attack on KI or its fans, only a small subset of fans who I suspect might exist, but haven't encountered myself. He wasn't attacking the overwhelmingly reasonable and honest posters here, anyway. I don't know anything about the guy other than that one video, but from his tone and tenor in that video, I suspect he would admit he wasn't referring to people here.

I had to look most of these up to see what they all were, since I'm not up to speed on flat rides. For the most part, these wouldn't be anything I would ride, other than Endeavor. That looks like a modernized version of Skylab, which is a ride I miss dearly at KI. I know there are still plenty of other Enterprise rides operating around the country, but Skylab was one of my favorite rides at KI, and one of the only flat rides I would ride regularly. I was terribly saddened when they removed it. So my vote is for an Endeavor, preferably right where Hank's now sits.

It's not just science that the "let everyone get it" crowd doesn't understand. It's basic math. Right now, the US has 3.8M confirmed cases, and 143k confirmed deaths. The herd immunity people will say that there are likely a lot more cases that haven't been caught, and they also seem to question how many deaths were actually due to Covid-19. So let's be charitable and assume 10M cases and 100k deaths. In order to reach herd immunity, the consensus says you need around 60% of people to have antibodies, either from getting the virus or receiving a vaccine. Let's assume that having had the virus guarantees immunity (obviously we don't know that to be true). Assuming we have 10M cases, that would mean only 3% of the population has been infected so far. If we were to extrapolate the death rate out to 60% infection rate, that would be 2M deaths. Now, you can say that number is artificially high, because a lot of the older and more vulnerable population has already been infected, and we've gotten better at treating it. Although most of that would be offset by the increase in the death rate due to our hospital systems being overwhelmed, given the exponentially increasing infection rate (without containment there's no reason to think we won't see upwards of a million new cases a day at some point). But we're being charitable, right? So let's cut the number in half. Without a vaccine, it will take 1M deaths to achieve herd immunity. In addition to the math, there's the fact that during a pandemic, 60% herd immunity won't actually protect anyone. When the virus is uncontained, it's going to keep spreading and impacting vulnerable people. 60% isn't a magic ceiling where once we hit it, the virus disappears. Without containment or a vaccine, it's likely we'll see up to 90% infected. So now, even by all the conservative estimates and assumptions, we're still looking at 1.5M deaths. That's the absolute best case scenario if we just "let everyone get it." And no, this doesn't factor in all the other non-binary results, like people who survive with permanent lung, heart or brain damage. I understand we have to balance the spread of the virus with other factors. I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back under complete lockdown again. But we know masks and social distancing help slow the spread of this virus. We don't know the extent to which they help, but we know they help. At the same time, it doesn't really cost you anything to wear a mask, either. Until there's a vaccine (which, even if approved by the first of the year, won't be widely available and administered for at least another 6-9 months), our goal should be to slow the spread, so we can ultimately contain the virus. The alternative is million(s) of people dying, and millions more suffering, most of which could be prevented.

I'm sure the park keeps a close eye on ridership metrics, and would be in communication with B&M if they felt this was an issue. I don't think the park will view it as a problem until there's a substantial drop in riders, that can't be attributed to things like opening new coasters. I don't disagree with your point at all. I just don't think the park sees this as a problem. And as long as they're happy, B&M is happy. Let's put it this way, the B&M rattle isn't exactly a new phenomenon. There was certainly enough data available with Banshee and Diamondback (not to mention B&Ms at other CF parks) before they designed and built Orion. If KI /CF felt the rattle was going to result in lower ridership, or hurt the long term return on their investment, surely they would have brought that up with B&M early in the design phase. So they either don't view it as a problem, or at least not a big enough one to justify the costs to fix. And I think that points to this being more of an issue with enthusiasts, and not so much the general public.

I'm sure B&M receives rider and other date from the parks for their rides, and they would absolutely hear from the park if the park felt an issue with one of their rides was causing decreased ridership. I'm of the opinion that most of the general public hardly notices the rattles that enthusiasts complain about. From my perspective, it would be nice if they could get rid of the rattles, but it doesn't deter me from riding anything. As you said, B&M has determined the ride quality is acceptable, and the park seems to agree. So from B&M's perspective, it becomes a matter of their reputation within the enthusiast community. I'm sure they'd prefer to not have the rattle tied to their reputation with enthusiasts, but how much money/resources are they going to invest? I wouldn't hold my breath on anything changing.

I'd be happy if KI just opened the park for normal operation during what would normally be the Haunt dates this year. I have no use for anything Haunt-related, but there's no better time to visit KI than on a nice fall day, especially if they're open until midnight or 1, as during Haunt. The logistics of the Haunt portion of things seem prohibitively difficult during the pandemic, but they could still probably bring in some nice crowds to the park. I really hope they figure out a way to market and operate in a way that it would be financially viable to open on weekends in October.

I'd like to see the park bring back the drink wristbands as an option for single day ticket holders, like they've done the last few years (presumably to compete with Holiday World). I'm not carrying a souvenir bottle around with me all day for refills. With it being as hot as it's been, and not wanting to use water fountains during COVID, I'll probably be spending $20-30 a day there on drinks. I'd honestly be happy to just pay that up front for an unlimited wristband, just for the convenience of not having to pay each time I get a drink. I think the season drink plan is only $32, but it's only available as an add-on for a season pass.

Because you'll be in too much pain to care. My fiancee and I rode last seat based on someone's suggestion we were chatting with in line...we both carried bruises for a few days (not exaggerating). I suspect that was not recently. Last year and this year, I would contend that the very back seat on The Beast has been smoother than any seat on The Racer. I definitely agree with this. We rode The Beast 4x Saturday, and each time we were either in the last row, or at least the last car. It was considerably smoother than I remember it being on my last visit a few years ago.

I don't want to hazard any guesses as to what others might experience, but I'm 6-0, 280, 42" waist and 54" chest. The only ride I really didn't fit in was Flight of Fear. They were able to cram me in, but the restraint was painfully tight into my lower ribs and stomach. It was very unpleasant, and it's the only ride I didn't ride more than once. Backlot was also very tight, but not quite as bad as FOF. Banshee was tight the first time I rode in the morning, but seemed much more comfortable the times I rode it later in the day. The Racer and Beast were both a little tight, but not uncomfortable at all. Same with Vortex, Delirium and Invertigo. Firehawk was pretty pleasant. I've always thought Diamondback was pretty comfortable, too. I didn't ride Drop Tower, because I don't like it. I also know I don't fit in those seats.

Went Saturday and the wait times were very minimal from about 11am-1pm. Not quite walk-on, but short enough. After that things started picking up significantly. We saw 2 hour posted waits on Firehawk and 90 minute posted waits on Diamondback between 2-5pm. The Beast looked to be well over an hour all day. The lines at night once the Haunt crowd got in were ridiculous. At least 2 hours for any of the bigger rides, everywhere we saw. Many of the Haunt attractions seemed to be at least 90 mins. At the risk of alienating myself from most regulars here, I will admit to having bought the Fast Lane Plus for our group of four. It's the first time I've ever done it, but it was worth every penny. I'm not local, and can't get to KI more than once a year. And usually that one time a year will be on a weekend. Even between 8-12 when things were crazy, we never had to wait more than 20 minutes for Diamondback, Beast, Firehawk or Banshee. And there was virtually no wait for anything else. Although I wasn't thrilled about paying $80 apiece (they give you $10 off if you buy 4 or more), I can justify the cost by saying it would have taken us 3-4 trips to ride that many rides without the pass, especially when it's that crowded. If I hadn't bought the FLP, it would have been a complete waste of time going on Saturday. We would have spent the entire day in lines. Being able to ride Diamondback and The Beast twice between 8:30-9:30 made it worth it. My advice for anyone going from out of town on a remaining Saturday with nice weather, if you can get the Fast Lane Plus, definitely do it. On a weekday in the summer? Maybe not. But I've been going to Kings Island for 30 years, and have rarely seen it as crowded as it was Saturday night.