Which do you think Cedar Fair should sell?

[italianchef]

As we know, Cedar Fair has taken on a large amount of debt and might sell one or more parks to reduce debt. Which facilities do you think Cedar Fair should sell and why?

[KIfan73]

I say sell KI and KD to Disney.

[TOPGUN1993]

Worlds Of Fun

[OHpki]

Gilroy Gardens and Star Trek: The Experience

[JjAmSaOnN]

Gilroy Gardens and Star Trek: The Experience

definitely Star Trek - the cost savings is the naming rights. At least with KI they can rename and retheme most rides easily.

[jzarley]

Of course, keep in mind that ST:TE isn't 100% the property of CF to sell... It's a 50/50 deal with the LV Hilton. (CF owns the attraction's "hardware" and the Hilton, of course, owns the real estate.)

However, since Hilton will soon be under the ownership of Blackstone, and considering Blackstone's own experience in theme parks (50% of USF, Legoland, Merlin Ent., etc.), purchasing CF's 50% would certainly fit within their profile.

Of course, whatever they'd get for the hardware and reduction in annual licensing costs (if x number of years weren't already included in the PP acquisition) would be a drop in the bucket compared to that near $2B debt...

(And...they don't own anything at Gilroy Gardens--that's purely a management contract. And, since I hate to think anyone would negotiate a management contract where they'd lose money, getting out of that deal would seem to do nothing more than reduce fee-based revenue...)

[ragerunner]

KI to Busch Entertainment

CW to Blackstone

Star Trek to Blackstone

I would think selling these three would really help their debt issues quickly. I also believe KI and CW are the parks most wanted by other companies.

[CoastersRZ]

I could possibly see Cedar Fair selling off some parks. Like Canada`s Wonderland, and the Star Trek Experience. Possibly also Great America could be an option. I doubt that they will dump Kings Island, as they have apparently wanted to get KI for quite some time. It will be interesting to see if any private equity group is interested in the hefty price for Cedar Fair. Especially since they seem to want to keep their management in place.

[marlfox_21]

Of course, keep in mind that ST:TE isn't 100% the property of CF to sell... It's a 50/50 deal with the LV Hilton. (CF owns the attraction's "hardware" and the Hilton, of course, owns the real estate.)

However, since Hilton will soon be under the ownership of Blackstone, and considering Blackstone's own experience in theme parks (50% of USF, Legoland, Merlin Ent., etc.), purchasing CF's 50% would certainly fit within their profile.

Of course, whatever they'd get for the hardware and reduction in annual licensing costs (if x number of years weren't already included in the PP acquisition) would be a drop in the bucket compared to that near $2B debt...

(And...they don't own anything at Gilroy Gardens--that's purely a management contract. And, since I hate to think anyone would negotiate a management contract where they'd lose money, getting out of that deal would seem to do nothing more than reduce fee-based revenue...)

And just like the paramount story ( ha ha little pun ) they can sell their .5 and get the weight of it off of their shoulders.

m.f.21

[marlfox_21]

In all honesty, if it came down to Cedar Fair selling just a few parks, I don't see Kings Island, Kings Dominion, or Cedar Point being amongst them. But hey, WHO KNOWS? This is the mystery that keeps us all coming back on here, right

[KIBeast]

Why is Canada's Wonderland even an option? I thought that they certainly were doing better than Great America or Carowinds. Those are the two options I'd go with.

[CoastersNSich]

Obviously Cedar Fair liked Kings Island so much to buy it, so that is going nowhere. Its market spans at least four-five metropolitan areas! If there are two properties I see them letting go of, there are Geauga Lake and Star Trek. GL because it doesn't truly fit Cedar Fair's operating model, ane Star Trek, because it fits in even less, and it's something that another company could run as well, if not better.

I don't see them letting go of Canada's Wonderland because it has some good potential being Canada's top theme park. Great America, although landlocked, also has some nice potential, and Cedar Fair can be a good steward of that park and in a good market.

[italianchef]

If I had the money, I would LOVE to purchase Star Trek: The Experience. I am a sci fi fan and will bring a sci fi actress to KI next month as my guest.

However, Star Trek: The Experience just doesn't quite fit into Cedar Fair. It is a Hollywood attraction and Cedar Fair does not do Hollywood. It's a main street kind of amusement park chain. I reckon that CF should sell ST: TE soon.

As for Geauga Lake, it is a tragedy. Part of it used to be Sea World. The whole park used to be Six Flags Worlds of Adventure. Whales and other animals lived there. Millions of dollars were invested in that park.

And now what? I have heard rumors that GL is doing so badly that the park will be shut down. Perhaps CF should cut its losses and sell this under-appreciated noble park.

[The Interpreter]

If Geauga Lake were sold, it would be highly unlikely to be as a park.

One of the reasons why Cedar Fair wanted Kings Island so badly (and Six Flags Worlds of Adventure before that) was to lessen the threat of competition to Cedar Point. Besides, the highest and best use of Geauga's land is highly likely to be residential or mixed use/light commercial, not amusement park.

[ragerunner]

The real issue is money.

If CF needs to reduce their debt by a significant amount they may find it impossible to do that with just the sale of Star Trek or Geauga Lake. It may turn out to be a situation, (we will have to wait and see) that weather or not they want too, they may have to sell KI and/or CW for their value.

[jzarley]

The real issue is money.

If CF needs to reduce their debt by a significant amount they may find it impossible to do that with just the sale of Star Trek or Geauga Lake. It may turn out to be a situation, (we will have to wait and see) that weather or not they want too, they may have to sell KI and/or CW for their value.

Especially since (as I've mentioned more than a few times <g>), CF doesn't even own 100% of ST:TE to begin with...

There is another option that could help CF with their debt situation. Instead of selling all of the company, they try to interest a private equity firm in a percentage of the company (up to 50%). (Time-Warner did this for Six Flags with Boston Ventures in the 90's...)

Of course, there are some drawbacks to this scenario as well...for instance, the percentage of the company owned by each unit holder would be reduced by up to half, which of course would also decrease their dividends by the same margin.

[Delirium13]

I would like to see Kings Island sold to Busch Entertainment.

[Vortexlover2]

star trek and geagua

[ragerunner]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

[jzarley]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in?

[ragerunner]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in?

Yes, and I have seen you experience such events as well.

[pkimike]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in?

Yes, and I have seen you experience such events as well.

I understand what you are saying but my thinking is that getting rid of properties can do a lot of financial good. I would get rid of Great America, Geauga Lake, and Star Trek. The only other park I could see being in danger would be MIA. I just don't know much about it.

What this would do is:

1. They could use the attractions at those parks to add to the other parks for the next couple of years. Between ThunderHawk, Dominator, Double Loop, Head Spin, Invertigo, Vortex, Top Gun, Psycho Mouse, Demon, and maybe a few of the wooden coasters you could almost add a new coaster to each of the left over parks. Plus you could do water park expansions and add a few flats also. I know it costs money to move rides but it is still cheaper than buying new ones.

2. You would think the money they get from selling land (Geauga Lake) and the money they would save from not having to lease land (Great America) would at least help them make their payments on their debt for the next couple of years. Not even wanting to guess how much their payments are.

3. They would save a ton of money on employees.

I just think something will happen. The funny thing is last year when I visited Geauga Lake for the first time I said to my friend that I bet they sell the land here and move the rides to other parks. They have done half of that. I have another friend that lives 15 minutes from GL and he thinks its funny that I have gone there the last 2 years. People that live around that park do not respect it very much.

[welchce]

For those of you that don't know, last years attendance records (for North America) state:

14 Canada's Wonderland

- Vaughan, Ontario 3.23m

(-2.0%)

15 Cedar Point

- Sandusky, Ohio 3.07m

(-2.5%)

16 Kings Island

- Kings Mill, Ohio 3.05m

(-1.5%)

So if people were suggesting to sell Canada's Wonderland because it isn't that profitable, you're wrong. Now CF might sell CW and KI because then they could only have to worry about spending on CP in this general area and also companies would actually want to buy them and would pay good money. Sure CF could sell GL and ST:TE to make some money but it wouldn't be nearly as much as they need. I don't see them selling Worlds of Fun or Vallyfair! or Michigan's Adventure because if they invest some more money in them they can rule their regions of the country (if they already don't).

And CF could, which they probably are, work on a nice deal with the 49ers to allow them to build a new stadium in Great America's parking lot and they could get some money from that.

[cstrwomann]

I would sell Star Trek and Gilroy Gardens first then the least profitable amusement parks in the chain.

[The Interpreter]

Sigh. They CANNOT sell Gilroy Gardens.

You see, they don't own it.

And they can't sell ALL of Star Trek: The Experience either.

Same reason.

Yes, jzarley, I know how you feel....

[ragerunner]

Sigh. They CANNOT sell Gilroy Gardens.

You see, they don't own it.

And they can't sell ALL of Star Trek: The Experience either.

Same reason.

Yes, jzarley, I know how you feel....

I just heard that they are going to sell HW and Lagoon. Oh, wait, you mean they don't own them? Oops!!!

[KIBeast]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in?

Yes, and I have seen you experience such events as well.

I understand what you are saying but my thinking is that getting rid of properties can do a lot of financial good. I would get rid of Great America, Geauga Lake, and Star Trek. The only other park I could see being in danger would be MIA. I just don't know much about it.

What this would do is:

1. They could use the attractions at those parks to add to the other parks for the next couple of years. Between ThunderHawk, Dominator, Double Loop, Head Spin, Invertigo, Vortex, Top Gun, Psycho Mouse, Demon, and maybe a few of the wooden coasters you could almost add a new coaster to each of the left over parks. Plus you could do water park expansions and add a few flats also. I know it costs money to move rides but it is still cheaper than buying new ones.

2. You would think the money they get from selling land (Geauga Lake) and the money they would save from not having to lease land (Great America) would at least help them make their payments on their debt for the next couple of years. Not even wanting to guess how much their payments are.

3. They would save a ton of money on employees.

I just think something will happen. The funny thing is last year when I visited Geauga Lake for the first time I said to my friend that I bet they sell the land here and move the rides to other parks. They have done half of that. I have another friend that lives 15 minutes from GL and he thinks its funny that I have gone there the last 2 years. People that live around that park do not respect it very much.

Where would they store all of these coasters from other amusement parks to install over the next couple of years? After all, they won't own those parks' properties any more. I would think every ride would have to be torn down and re-built in one year.

[pkimike]

star trek and geagua

Since their debt load is really LARGE i would be very suprised if star trek and geauga lake would even come close to what they need financially.

Ever get the feeling that no matter how many times you make a well-reasoned, logical statement rooted in real-world pragmatism, in some cases it will just never sink in?

Yes, and I have seen you experience such events as well.

I understand what you are saying but my thinking is that getting rid of properties can do a lot of financial good. I would get rid of Great America, Geauga Lake, and Star Trek. The only other park I could see being in danger would be MIA. I just don't know much about it.

What this would do is:

1. They could use the attractions at those parks to add to the other parks for the next couple of years. Between ThunderHawk, Dominator, Double Loop, Head Spin, Invertigo, Vortex, Top Gun, Psycho Mouse, Demon, and maybe a few of the wooden coasters you could almost add a new coaster to each of the left over parks. Plus you could do water park expansions and add a few flats also. I know it costs money to move rides but it is still cheaper than buying new ones.

2. You would think the money they get from selling land (Geauga Lake) and the money they would save from not having to lease land (Great America) would at least help them make their payments on their debt for the next couple of years. Not even wanting to guess how much their payments are.

3. They would save a ton of money on employees.

I just think something will happen. The funny thing is last year when I visited Geauga Lake for the first time I said to my friend that I bet they sell the land here and move the rides to other parks. They have done half of that. I have another friend that lives 15 minutes from GL and he thinks its funny that I have gone there the last 2 years. People that live around that park do not respect it very much.

Where would they store all of these coasters from other amusement parks to install over the next couple of years? After all, they won't own those parks' properties any more. I would think every ride would have to be torn down and re-built in one year.

Do you really think that would be a problem? I think every park has the room to store a coaster. They are doing it with SV at Dorney. In my opinion, something is going to happen to the parks! They may continue over the next few years to just scale down a few parks until they just close them or they could sell them as is in the next year. We shall see.

[The Interpreter]

Yep. Something is going to happen. Something always done.

Real daring prediction, that.

See, I said something was going to happen, and Golly, it did.

[italianchef]

I am most certain that Star Trek: The Experience will be sold. It just doesn't fit into the CF model. CF doesn't do Hollywood. And I've heard rumors that GL was doing so bad that it'll be sold. Selling these facilities would not end CF's debt problems. But it would reduce them.