Geauga Lake Sells All Their Rides...

[dare-to-fly]

Hahaha, hes talking about "normal caliber wooden coasters". Wish I would have known that it all makes sense now! Pfft, I guess there are more "normal" wooden coasters than Voyage. Some people will never listen to others insights. I for one appreciated your post Robbie!

Oh...what's the matter Cory? Can't think of an arguement?

[CoastersRZ]

Thanks Cory!

And as a matter of fact Dare-to-Fly, I have ridden the Voyage, as well as the Raven and Legend. In fact, on my visit to Holiday World in 2006, I was on a train that they decided to film for a photo shoot for a commercial and got to ride the ride multiple times in a row. And did you totally miss the fact that I stated the Voyage had trim brakes added to the ride to cut down on maintenance issues with the track? And what exactly is a "normal caliber wooden roller coaster?"

[dare-to-fly]

Thanks Cory!

And as a matter of fact Dare-to-Fly, I have ridden the Voyage, as well as the Raven and Legend. In fact, on my visit to Holiday World in 2006, I was on a train that they decided to film for a photo shoot for a commercial and got to ride the ride multiple times in a row. And did you totally miss the fact that I stated the Voyage had trim brakes added to the ride to cut down on maintenance issues with the track? And what exactly is a "normal caliber wooden roller coaster?"

What this means is exactly what I said. You know that it takes something special to be voted number 1 wooden coaster on the planet two years in a row! On a typical wooden coaster, you will find that trims are not typically neccessary. It should also be noted the one on Voyage is minor unlike the ride-sucking trims that KI's rides seem to be equipped with these days. It should also be noted that there is potential for that trim to be removed one maintenance on the one rough curve is complete. I don't know whether that will ever happen, but if not--the trim on the Voyage is not a ride-sucking break, it is a minor slow. One that is about equivalent to that of The Racer....however Voyage has more than enough steam to get back up to the insane level immediately after the trim. Racer is a smaller out and back.

[dare-to-fly]

Hahaha, hes talking about "normal caliber wooden coasters". Wish I would have known that it all makes sense now! Pfft, I guess there are more "normal" wooden coasters than Voyage. Some people will never listen to others insights. I for one appreciated your post Robbie!

I would have used The Screechin' Eagle as an example if I didn't KNOW that you would use the arguement that they closed, since you love to argue every angle under the sun for the sake of arguing

And not just that Dare-to-fly, but every angle under the moon as well! Especially if the angle is of importance to the discussion at hand! Whether I particularly agree with that opinion or not!

P.S. The Screechin' eagle hasn't neccesarily been the smoothest ride ever created, nor had the park ever really had the kind of money it would take to chop a hill and create a trim. Trims are put on coasters for reasons, and if you can't understand the park reasons behind that, perhaps you should leave those trimmed rides to those of us who enjoy them!

It's a wooden coaster, not a Cadillac. And...the fact that it wasn't smooth was not related to what we are insanely arguing over. The issue here is whether or not trims are neccessary or not. Screechin' Eagle ran just fine for eighty years and then some in 02. If the park would have had to pay more to have the trim--then that is an argument in MY favor not yours. And...if that is the case, THANK GOD THEY DIDN'T.

Incedently...

Creating arguments that don't need to be created is not a character trait. If you don't agree with the trim brake discussion, then quit trying to tick the rest of us off!

[dare-to-fly]

I might add that I am always willing to listen to people's insights as long as they are worth listening to. I'm glad I haven't made too many typos or you'd argue with that too!

[CoastersRZ]

A couple of points. First of all, I believe that the trim brake on Voyage will stay next season, and likely forever. I`m sure the park doesn`t want to retrack 1/6 of the Voyage`s track every season. Which is something the trim brake can solve. And, as the ride ages, it wouldn`t surprise me if they turn that trim brake on even harder (or even add additional trim brakes to the ride).

Besides, I think that the trim brake on The Racer does little to ruin the experience of the ride. It is still one fun ride. True, it may not have the popularity or the appeal it once had among the general public. But it is still a classic ride. One which helped spark the second roller coaster revolution, which continues on to this very day. Keep in mind that this year The Racer will be 36 years old! How will the Voyage be riding when it is that old?

[dare-to-fly]

A couple of points. First of all, I believe that the trim brake on Voyage will stay next season, and likely forever. I`m sure the park doesn`t want to retrack 1/6 of the Voyage`s track every season. Which is something the trim brake can solve. And, as the ride ages, it wouldn`t surprise me if they turn that trim brake on even harder (or even add additional trim brakes to the ride).

Besides, I think that the trim brake on The Racer does little to ruin the experience of the ride. It is still one fun ride. True, it may not have the popularity or the appeal it once had among the general public. But it is still a classic ride. One which helped spark the second roller coaster revolution, which continues on to this very day. Keep in mind that this year The Racer will be 36 years old! How will the Voyage be riding when it is that old?

You don't realize how much it subtracts from the ride until you ride it when the brake doesn't catch, without it, or at Halloween Haunt when it is running full trains for hours on end. After having airtime on every single hill on the course at HH, I have seen what Racer is meant to be. Have you?

Also, the issue is that it doesn't need to be there. As stated, The Screechin' Eagle ran for eighty years. The Racer is still fairly young when you put the two side by side.

[Cory Butcher]

I might add that I am always willing to listen to people's insights as long as they are worth listening to. I'm glad I haven't made too many typos or you'd argue with that too!

No, not entirely. You have OVERLY CAPITALIZED things that do not need CAPITALIZATION!

And smoothness not being an issue? I dont even want to know where you pulled that thought from. The smoothness of a coaster, which is in many cases related to the maintenance of a ride, is a direct reason for the adding of trims, to take some strain off maintenance, and yes provide for a smoother ride. Whether you agree with that or not, that is one of the many reasons that trims are used!

[dare-to-fly]

it wouldn`t surprise me if they turn that trim brake on even harder (or even add additional trim brakes to the ride).

Enthusiasts complained enough over the one that's there. I'll hate to hear them if this is true. It certainly will not continue as #1.

[dare-to-fly]

I might add that I am always willing to listen to people's insights as long as they are worth listening to. I'm glad I haven't made too many typos or you'd argue with that too!

No, not entirely. You have OVERLY CAPITALIZED things that do not need CAPITALIZATION!

And smoothness not being an issue? I dont even want to know where you pulled that thought from. The smoothness of a coaster, which is in many cases related to the maintenance of a ride, is a direct reason for the adding of trims, to take some strain off maintenance, and yes provide for a smoother ride. Whether you agree with that or not, that is one of the many reasons that trims are used!

Which you just voided your old arguement. We are back to The Screechin' Eagle ran for eighty years without any trims and was fine. One of the best...I might add.

And, as long as I have a caps lock key I'll capitalize anything I please if the point merits. (Which I haven't used for the last several posts!)

[CoastersRZ]

Well, you may capitalize stuff you want to emphasize. But you may not capitalize an entire post, as that is in violation of the terms of service of the forums. It should be noted that double posting (and triple posting as you have also done in the thread) is also again the terms of service of the forums. You have an edit button on your posts for a reason. I know that you`ve used it. There is no reason to double post (or even triple post) in a thread. You have been warned.

[dare-to-fly]

Hmmm...I wonder what caliber wooden coasters the following are:

The Georgia Cyclone

Pegasus at Mt Olympus

Hades at Mt Olympus

Tremors at Silverwood in Idaho

Cyclone at Six Flags New England

The Coney Island Cyclone

Son of Beast

Just wonderin'

I suppose my question would be how many of them include ride-sucking trim brakes.

I can't answer for the rest SoB would be an extreme caliber!

At any rate.

[dare-to-fly]

Define a double-post and triple post and I'll gladly use the edit button to alleviate this problem.

Sorry--now I'm with you. Can't find a delete post button or I would fix this one as well!

[Browntggrr]

How about an idiot that posts three times in a row.

[Cory Butcher]

Which you just voided your old arguement. We are back to The Screechin' Eagle ran for eighty years without any trims and was fine. One of the best...I might add.

See here is the thing though, Screechin' Eagle ran with trains comprised of three cars per train while Racer ran with 5 per train. That lends itself to less maintenance issues. Also as anyone who went to LL in 2002 will tell you, SE ran with seemingly far less than preferred liveliness. Also though some will say SE was a very brilliant air-time inducing creation, many will tell you the ride still was relatively tame in its golden years compared to Racer in its golden years, which again, means less maintenance, and in some cases as obvious was the case with SE whether cost prohibitive or other a lack of need for trims compared with Racer, the highly esteemed coaster that started the second golden age of coastering! Though I don't agree with how much the ride has been chopped and reprofiled over the years, the trims and reprofiling were done to keep her alive, long past the SE!

[dare-to-fly]

How about an idiot that posts three times in a row.

Ode to the moderator...shouldn't this be a violation?

As for SE, I found that it still had plenty of umph in 02, despite what certain people may say. There is no arguing that Big Dipper from Geauga Lake had plenty of airtime, and it ran for way longer still.

Yes, it ran with fewer cars...however my point is still the same...live and let live. If you are willing to fund a little bit of maintenance, the coasters can live on for as long as you want to keep them alive. There is no need for extra trims that will take the fun out of the ride.

You are not going to convince me that the trims are needed, or that they are a good thing.

[Browntggrr]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for trim brakes on a wooden out and back coaster. ESPECIALLY when there is NO NEED for it. That trim was NOT there for the majority of the life of the coaster!!!!!!!!

Wood coasters that exert an excessive amount of force need to have trims so that the coasters do not destroy themselves as well as cost the park excessive maintenance costs.

Enthusiasts hate trims, as do you. But enthusiasts also comprise about 1% of a park's attendence. So parks take the lesser of two evils. Trim the coasters that need it, at the expense of those 1% being upset.

[dare-to-fly]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for trim brakes on a wooden out and back coaster. ESPECIALLY when there is NO NEED for it. That trim was NOT there for the majority of the life of the coaster!!!!!!!!

Wood coasters that exert an excessive amount of force need to have trims so that the coasters do not destroy themselves as well as cost the park excessive maintenance costs.

Enthusiasts hate trims, as do you. But enthusiasts also comprise about 1% of a park's attendence. So parks take the lesser of two evils. Trim the coasters that need it, at the expense of those 1% being upset.

That is EXACTLY the point. Racer DOES NOT need trims.

[Browntggrr]

That is EXACTLY the point. Racer DOES NOT need trims.

So you know what coasters need trims and which ones do not?

Please explain your knowledge of this.

[Raptor66]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for trim brakes on a wooden out and back coaster. ESPECIALLY when there is NO NEED for it. That trim was NOT there for the majority of the life of the coaster!!!!!!!!

Wood coasters that exert an excessive amount of force need to have trims so that the coasters do not destroy themselves as well as cost the park excessive maintenance costs.

Enthusiasts hate trims, as do you. But enthusiasts also comprise about 1% of a park's attendence. So parks take the lesser of two evils. Trim the coasters that need it, at the expense of those 1% being upset.

That is EXACTLY the point. Racer DOES NOT need trims.

Where did he say that Racer does not need trims?

[Browntggrr]

Some information on trim brakes and their purpose:

http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/rollercoasters_sdzq.htm

Many coasters employ trim brakes to literally trim excess speed from a coaster train as it travels along the course. These brakes cannot completely stop a train, but they do help control the spacing of multiple trains along the track and reduce wear and tear that would ultimately increase maintenance costs.

http://www.ultimaterollercoaster.com/coasters/glossary/

Trim Brake - A brake used to slow a roller coaster train or car. Trim brakes are typically found in the middle of the circuit and are used to slow a train when it is exceeding the optimal operating speed. Trim brakes may be used to reduce the amount of negative g-forces on a ride. Block brakes which are designed to stop a train mid-course may also be used similar to trim brakes to trim speed off a roller coaster train.

http://www.coasterquest.com/blocksys.htm

Some coasters have such a long track that it is safe to run two trains on the high speed portion of track by placing an intermediate brake, or "Trim Brake" on a straight section of the track that is designed to accommodate the forces caused by stopping a 15,000+ pound train in a short distance. Some of these trim brakes may never get used unless the computer senses that the trains are getting too close, at which time it will hold the train until it is cleared to proceed. Some coasters may also use these trim brakes during normal operation in order to maintain a safe operating speed by applying a small amount of braking as the train passes through without actually stopping it.

http://stason.org/TULARC/entertainment/rol...-terms-A-B.html

Trim Brake- A brake used to slow the train running the track. This is used when the coaster exceeds recommended operating margins. It is also used when the train is causing too much wear on the track from excessive speed.

[dare-to-fly]

Yes...

I am well aware of the purpose of trims. As well as many other portions of a roller coaster that you might think I wouldn't such as upstops, chaindogs, anti-rollbacks etc. and the functions of each. I don't need to explain any credentials to you.

You can plainly see the lack of a need for trims by looking at other comparable roller coasters such as Blue Streak, which is approximately the same size, age, and train length. It uses no trims, and has even more airtime than Racer.

Rather than defending the trims, or trying to make it sound like I'm stupid and you are all-knowing, why not think of other comparable roller coasters out there.

I find it amusing that a related forum to a park that has a reputation for trimming rides to death, would be defending trim brakes to me. Why am I not surprized. If you want to trim a ride to death so that you can ride a less than satisfactory ride longer, fine.

All I am saying is that with a little TLC, a coaster can easily be made to last regardless of the forces present. All it takes is a park that cares about the rides and overall satisfaction of the riders. There are certain times that trims can be very useful, such as the main big one on The Beast, the one on Vortex, or even Son of Beast or FoF if they are dialed back a smidge. Most notable are the trims on Mean Streak at Cedar Point. The ride is actually a better quality ride with the trims...however when they don't need to be there...they don't need to be there!

[Browntggrr]

You can plainly see the lack of a need for trims by looking at other comparable roller coasters such as Blue Streak, which is approximately the same size, age, and train length. It uses no trims, and has even more airtime than Racer.

Blue Streak at CP is 2558' and has a max speed of 40 mph and was bulit in 1964.

Racer is 3415' and has a max speed of 61 mph and was built in 1972.

Racer also has 6 more people/ train.

How can these two coasters be compared to each other? And how does airtime define if trims are to be used or not?

[BoddaH1994]

All I am saying is that with a little TLC, a coaster can easily be made to last regardless of the forces present. All it takes is a park that cares about the rides and overall satisfaction of the riders. There are certain times that trims can be very useful, such as the main big one on The Beast, the one on Vortex, or even Son of Beast or FoF if they are dialed back a smidge. Most notable are the trims on Mean Streak at Cedar Point. The ride is actually a better quality ride with the trims...however when they don't need to be there...they don't need to be there!

I don't think that's necessarily true. Take The Voyage at Holiday World as an example. They were all up on the fact that it was so fast and forceful. One season later, it's noticeably trimmed. Unfortunately it seems like there's no way to truly calculate the affects of the trains on the track until they're really there.

[dare-to-fly]

You can plainly see the lack of a need for trims by looking at other comparable roller coasters such as Blue Streak, which is approximately the same size, age, and train length. It uses no trims, and has even more airtime than Racer.

Blue Streak at CP is 2558' and has a max speed of 40 mph and was bulit in 1964.

Racer is 3415' and has a max speed of 61 mph and was built in 1972.

Racer also has 6 more people/ train.

How can these two coasters be compared to each other? And how does airtime define if trims are to be used or not?

I believe that I used the word APPROXIMATELY in that particular post. Blue Streak was used as an example because they are comparable in size and design...not identical...but comparable. I think we have lost sight of the point. At this point you are going to use whatever you can to argue with me. If I use an example of a coaster that is 83 feet tall, then you'll say "IT'S A FOOT DIFFERENT SO IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM RACER."

I for one, would like to see us quit arguing over the defense of something as stupid as trim brakes, which in many cases, doesn't need defending.

At this point we can all just agree to disagree on this issue and get back to the topic at hand. I'm not sure how exactly we got off on this tangent, nor do I care, but the topic is Geauga Lake selling rides.

I think that it has potential to survive as a waterpark if CF wants to take the time to it right. This is still questionable, but only time will tell. We'll see!

It's sad to lose the rides at Geauga Lake, and I hope they all find new homes. Thunderhawk is now safe, and Dominator is safe. The rest are still very much threatened. I'd like to see all of them relocated to a new home especially Villain. Whether anyone is a Villain fan or not in here, I enjoyed my rides on it this summer and found it to be one heck of a coaster that I wouldn't mind riding again!

[Browntggrr]

^ You are the one that brought up how BS and Racer can be compared.

I was just wondering how two coasters that are 8 years different in age, 857' difference in length, 21mph different, as well as 1200 lbs. different for the weight of the car can be compared. Even in approximate comparisons.

But it is good to see that trim brakes are necessary and are stupid to argue.

And answer your question on how trim brakes were brought into the discussion:

Nope. The then Outer Limits: Flight of Fear operated with both those hills still there. Then, first the forwards side hill was removed, then the year after the backwards side.

The reasons for the removal obviously had nothing to do with Outer Limits: Flight of Fear.

And I still think it's crap that they removed a hill at all! I first noticed it in a you-tube video and frieked. I had some sort of ridiculous reaction about, "what is this" "Racer isn't original" "reprofileing my favorite ride" and all kinds of other things.

At any rate--yes I know the claim about doing that for extra brakes--bs. There is only one there, and the brake run for Racer is huge.

As far as the pictures--Racer looks absolutely beautiful in those photos and I wish it was still painted to look like this. You are right, it does look more cared for. Personally I think it is a very under-rated coaster for having the best airtime in the park.

Incedently, in case you can't tell or haven't picked up on it, Racer forward is my favorite ride at Kings Island and so I'm a little sensitive about it. I look forward to many more wonderful seasons. However, I can't say that it is the first place I go at KI, because The Beast has to be first, as tradition goes. And...if you're wondering how Racer ranks above The Beast for me, airtime is what gets it. But my belly ache is the same on both--get rid of the friekin' trim brakes. Three of four on The Beast are unneccessary, and the one on Racer is UNCALLED FOR and senseless. Oh, the opinions!

[dare-to-fly]

The differences in the overall stats of the two rides are not all that different. Slightly maybe...but not completely different.

Either way...

Lets agree to disagree and move on.

[Browntggrr]

The differences in the overall stats of the two rides are not all that different. Slightly maybe...but not completely different.

If you want to compare like coasters, compare Racers with Rebel Yell at KD.

At least between those two coasters the "slight" difference you refer to is not over a half ton, 21 mph, and 1/6 of a mile.

BTW- Rebel Yell has trims as well.

[dare-to-fly]

Conveniently also a former Paramount park.

Also--for the THIRD time.

Lets agree to disagree and move on.

[Browntggrr]

Ah yes, this does bring back a certain memory:

Oh...what's the matter Cory? Can't think of an arguement?