Vortex

[JacksonPKI]

the rides at Kings Island are safe.

Just as safe as the Flight Commander.

Just had to put that out.

[Vortex]

^I'm not saying the entire disaster will play out,

But I feel SO much safer with the handlebars and seatbelts.

I have been on all of the Coasters at Kings Island and other parks with out a seatbelt and was fine. Also look at the old King Kobra at Kinds Dominion just a buzz bar also.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Vortex

[DeLorean Rider]

the rides at Kings Island are safe.

Just as safe as the Flight Commander.

Just had to put that out.

Hey now, you may have been to young to remember flight commander, but Flight Commander had a pretty intricate restraint system, even more so after the accident. Just because there was an accident doesn't mean the ride is not safe. They wouldn't operate it if it wasn't safe.

^I'm not saying the entire disaster will play out,

But I feel SO much safer with the handlebars and seatbelts.

I have been on all of the Coasters at Kings Island and other parks with out a seatbelt and was fine. Also look at the old King Kobra at Kinds Dominion just a buzz bar also.

Why don't you take a look, the handle you are refering to is NOT a buzz bar, it is a handel mounted to the car similar to the ones on the wooden coasters at our park.

It would be pretty impossible to have a buzz bar and a handle on the same car since on a buzz bar car, the buzz bar is the handle.

[BavarianBeatle]

Another point, once again I'm relying on my legal backgound, if any coaster designer knew that thay had designed a coaster that could possibly eject a rider during the normal operation or the ride, regardless of the restraint system, the knowledge of that possibility would result in unimaginable liability if it actually happened. And I mean not just the normal medical bills, pain and suffering, lost wages, etc., but potentialy millions of dollars in punitive damages.

[Monroe]

Personally, I can slip out of Vortex even with the restraint down. And last year at the KI event, the chest restraint jammed on me on Firehawk, and I was able to get out of there as well. It can be done.

For some reason the words "Flight Commander" and "Drop Zone" come to mind...

PS

^^O.K. I will flat out say it. You are wrong, and a couple of examples of new and relocated coasters to prove my point that restraints are there to hold you in at all times not just for accidents. You really need to take a physics class.

Monroe, I'm sure nobody is going to argue that the restraints on a flying coaster are there to keep you in however you cannot make the statement that EVERY coaster that goes upside down requires restraints to keep riders in their seats. Given competent riders, there are many coasters that would be just fine without restraints holding riders in. I have a very old video of King Kobra at KD when it was new without restraints and people riding it. Before it launched the operator would explain that the centripetal force would keep the riders in. Many of Anton Schwarzkopf's coasters (that went upside down) never had restraints and operated just fine. I don’t know when the last time you took a physics class was, but I've taken three in the last 2 years, not to mention statics, dynamics, strengths of materials, thermodynamics, and mechanics of materials, and had countless discussions with many people about roller coaster physics.

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=5

^The people in this picture are not wearing restraints^

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=2

^Nobody is falling out in this picture^

http://rcdb.com/ig1152.htm?picture=4

It is very obvious that you have not been on that coaster, and yes I have. This is the very same coaster with the original restraints. As you can see, there is a lap bar that comes down around your waist. I am not going to explain what happens regarding gravity forces in a loop again, so go back and read my posts. Also, if you have taken that many classes and you still think you are perfectly safe without restraints. Then I would take the classes again or get my money back. This is basic physics, and with that comes many variables. For example, you mentioned Schwarzkopf, I am assuming that you are referring to his single loop coasters. Take a look at the loop, it is not as tear drop looking as most loops. This gives you a more constant g-force all the way through the loop. Any coaster that you might have a video of where the coaster does not have restraints, that video was taken shortly before they added restraints.

[JacksonPKI]

^Really, do you people seriously think they would design a coaster with restraints that let you fall out?

On Flight of Fear, they have a lap bar that cousions over your lap and your ankles,

and nobody falls out.

Not all lap bars are the same.

[Gordon Bombay]

the rides at Kings Island are safe.

Just as safe as the Flight Commander.

Just had to put that out.

A-) You're not old enough to even remember Flight Commander or the accident.

B-) You obviously don't know anything about the accident.

[JacksonPKI]

^But my teacher used to work at Kings Island as heady of saftey (i think)

And she was there when the accident happened.

and putting a is just obnoxious.

[Browntggrr]

And claiming that your teacher was head of safety, but you are unsure if that is fact or not, is not obnoxious?

Is this the same L.A. teacher that supposedly has friends that work at KI?

It is pretty funny for a kids that seems to know all these "former" KI employees, you still have no idea what happens at the park.

How about adding that the victim in this incident was rather intoxicated? Or did your source (the possible former head of security) leave that particular fact out?

Since it seems to be a rather favorite term around here:

It's comfirmed, your an idiot.

[Gordon Bombay]

and putting a is just obnoxious.

It was meant to be a "B )" to make my second point.

To build on what Brown said, not only was the passenger intoxicated, but it was the operation policy recommended by Intamin that allowed her to come out of the car.

[KIBeast]

It's comfirmed, your an idiot.

I think we needed to see that again.

Gordon and Tggr are correct. Between the lady being intoxicated and the operation policy by Intamin was what lead to her demise. It had nothing to do with KI's maintenance team. I would really trust them and the maintenance guys at CP considering Ohio has really strict State safety codes that they have to abide by. Not only that, but it's been proven over and over that most accidents, including the fatal ones, are due to rider error, not faulty maintenance.

[DeLorean Rider]

Personally, I can slip out of Vortex even with the restraint down. And last year at the KI event, the chest restraint jammed on me on Firehawk, and I was able to get out of there as well. It can be done.

For some reason the words "Flight Commander" and "Drop Zone" come to mind...

PS

^^O.K. I will flat out say it. You are wrong, and a couple of examples of new and relocated coasters to prove my point that restraints are there to hold you in at all times not just for accidents. You really need to take a physics class.

Monroe, I'm sure nobody is going to argue that the restraints on a flying coaster are there to keep you in however you cannot make the statement that EVERY coaster that goes upside down requires restraints to keep riders in their seats. Given competent riders, there are many coasters that would be just fine without restraints holding riders in. I have a very old video of King Kobra at KD when it was new without restraints and people riding it. Before it launched the operator would explain that the centripetal force would keep the riders in. Many of Anton Schwarzkopf's coasters (that went upside down) never had restraints and operated just fine. I don't know when the last time you took a physics class was, but I've taken three in the last 2 years, not to mention statics, dynamics, strengths of materials, thermodynamics, and mechanics of materials, and had countless discussions with many people about roller coaster physics.

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=5

^The people in this picture are not wearing restraints^

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=2

^Nobody is falling out in this picture^

http://rcdb.com/ig1152.htm?picture=4

It is very obvious that you have not been on that coaster, and yes I have. This is the very same coaster with the original restraints. As you can see, there is a lap bar that comes down around your waist. I am not going to explain what happens regarding gravity forces in a loop again, so go back and read my posts. Also, if you have taken that many classes and you still think you are perfectly safe without restraints. Then I would take the classes again or get my money back. This is basic physics, and with that comes many variables. For example, you mentioned Schwarzkopf, I am assuming that you are referring to his single loop coasters. Take a look at the loop, it is not as tear drop looking as most loops. This gives you a more constant g-force all the way through the loop. Any coaster that you might have a video of where the coaster does not have restraints, that video was taken shortly before they added restraints.

That the ride currently has restraints after 4 relocations is of little consequence. The ride ran for many years without restraints whether you like it or not, and the video was taken several years after the ride was installed at KD

CLEARLY you need to take some very basic physics to understand the idea of centripetal force. How else do you explain when a hotwheel's car makes it through a loop on a plastic track. Its the same as how a passenger stays in a Schwarzkopf coaster through a loop.

Here maybe this will help you understand:

<H1 class=articlePageTitle>Loop-the-Loops</H1>As you go around a loop-the-loop, your inertia not only produces an exciting acceleration force, but it also keeps you in the seat when you're upside down.

A roller coaster loop-the-loop is a sort of centrifuge, just like a merry-go-round. In a merry-go-round, the spinning platform pushes you out in a straight line away from the platform. The constraining bar at the edge of the merry-go-round stops you from following this path -- it is constantly accelerating you toward the center of the platform.

The loop-the-loop in a roller coaster acts exactly the same way as a merry-go-round. As you approach the loop, your inertial velocity is straight ahead of you. But the track keeps the coaster car, and therefore your body, from traveling along this straight path. The force of your acceleration pushes you from the coaster-car floor, and your inertia pushes you into the car floor. Your own outward inertia creates a sort of false gravity that stays fixed at the bottom of the car even when you're upside down. You need a safety harness for security, but in most loop-the-loops, you would stay in the car whether you had a harness or not.

Photo courtesy of Coaster Central

A teardrop-shaped vertical loop in the Canyon

Blaster at the Adventure Dome in Las Vegas

As you move around the loop, the net force acting on your body is constantly changing. At the very bottom of the loop, the acceleration force is pushing you down in the same direction as gravity. Since both forces push you in the same direction, you feel especially heavy at this point. As you move straight up the loop, gravity is pulling you into your seat while the acceleration force is pushing you into the floor. You feel the gravity pulling you into your seat, but (if your eyes are still open) you can see that the ground is no longer where it should be.

At the top of the loop, when you're completely upside down, gravity is pulling you out of your seat, toward the ground, but the stronger acceleration force is pushing you into your seat, toward the sky. Since the two forces pushing you in opposite directions are nearly equal, your body feels very light. As in the sharp descent, you are almost weightless for the brief moment when you are at the top of the loop.

As you come out of the loop and level out, you become heavy again. The loop-the-loop is amazing because it crams so much into such a short length of track. The varying forces put your body through the whole range of sensations in a matter of seconds. While these forces are shaking up all the parts of your body, your eyes see the entire world flip upside down. To many coaster riders, this moment at the top of the loop, when you're light as a feather and all you can see is the sky, is the best part of the whole ride.

In a loop-the-loop, the intensity of the acceleration force is determined by two factors: the speed of the train and the angle of the turn. As the train enters the loop, it has maximum kinetic energy -- that is, it is moving at top speed. At the top of the loop, gravity has slowed the train down somewhat, so it has more potential energy and less kinetic energy -- it is moving at reduced speed.

Originally, roller-coaster designers made circle-shaped loops. In this design, the angle of the turn is constant all the way around. In order to build an acceleration force strong enough to push the train into the track at the top of the loop, they had to send the train into the loop at a fairly high rate of speed (so it would still be going pretty fast at the top of the loop). Greater speed meant a much greater force on the rider as he entered the loop, which could be fairly uncomfortable.

Notice the beginning in bold and underlined!!!

Look simple physics will tell you that if the train is going fast enough that the road wheels are in contact with the track, then the riders who are subjected to the same forces of the train, will remain in contact with their seats. If a coaster like a Schwarzkopf shuttle loop is designed such that the road wheels stay in contact during the loop, which they do, the riders will not fall out.

That is not to say that on Vortex during the corkscrews the road wheels are always in contact, that would be a case where restraints are necessary.

I am not going to explain what happens regarding gravity forces in a loop again, so go back and read my posts.

You obviously do not know, because SIMPLY PUT, if the centripetal force (or acceleration force) throughout the loop is greater than the force of gravity, you will not fall out. END OF STORY, whether the loop is a elliptical or circular.

Also do not tell me to take my classes again or get my money back, that’s just plain immature.

Thank you class.

PS this information is CONFIRMED.

My source is the Laws of Physics, Isaac Newton, and How-Stuff-Works.com

[TheKlockster]

Well said Nick. The only part of Vortex you need restraints on is the Corkscrews. Other than that they aren't there to keep you from flying out - but rather to keep you seated and prevent any sort of shenanigans on the ride.

And your Avatar and member title are awesome.

[coaster_junky]

^But my teacher used to work at Kings Island as heady of saftey (i think)

And she was there when the accident happened.

and putting a is just obnoxious.

well your obnoxious so it all balances out

[KIBeast]

Personally, I can slip out of Vortex even with the restraint down. And last year at the KI event, the chest restraint jammed on me on Firehawk, and I was able to get out of there as well. It can be done.

For some reason the words "Flight Commander" and "Drop Zone" come to mind...

PS

^^O.K. I will flat out say it. You are wrong, and a couple of examples of new and relocated coasters to prove my point that restraints are there to hold you in at all times not just for accidents. You really need to take a physics class.

Monroe, I'm sure nobody is going to argue that the restraints on a flying coaster are there to keep you in however you cannot make the statement that EVERY coaster that goes upside down requires restraints to keep riders in their seats. Given competent riders, there are many coasters that would be just fine without restraints holding riders in. I have a very old video of King Kobra at KD when it was new without restraints and people riding it. Before it launched the operator would explain that the centripetal force would keep the riders in. Many of Anton Schwarzkopf's coasters (that went upside down) never had restraints and operated just fine. I don't know when the last time you took a physics class was, but I've taken three in the last 2 years, not to mention statics, dynamics, strengths of materials, thermodynamics, and mechanics of materials, and had countless discussions with many people about roller coaster physics.

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=5

^The people in this picture are not wearing restraints^

http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=2

^Nobody is falling out in this picture^

http://rcdb.com/ig1152.htm?picture=4

It is very obvious that you have not been on that coaster, and yes I have. This is the very same coaster with the original restraints. As you can see, there is a lap bar that comes down around your waist. I am not going to explain what happens regarding gravity forces in a loop again, so go back and read my posts. Also, if you have taken that many classes and you still think you are perfectly safe without restraints. Then I would take the classes again or get my money back. This is basic physics, and with that comes many variables. For example, you mentioned Schwarzkopf, I am assuming that you are referring to his single loop coasters. Take a look at the loop, it is not as tear drop looking as most loops. This gives you a more constant g-force all the way through the loop. Any coaster that you might have a video of where the coaster does not have restraints, that video was taken shortly before they added restraints.

That the ride currently has restraints after 4 relocations is of little consequence. The ride ran for many years without restraints whether you like it or not, and the video was taken several years after the ride was installed at KD

CLEARLY you need to take some very basic physics to understand the idea of centripetal force. How else do you explain when a hotwheel's car makes it through a loop on a plastic track. Its the same as how a passenger stays in a Schwarzkopf coster through a loop.

Here maybe this will help you understand:

<H1 class=articlePageTitle>Loop-the-Loops</H1>As you go around a loop-the-loop, your inertia not only produces an exciting acceleration force, but it also keeps you in the seat when you're upside down.

A roller coaster loop-the-loop is a sort of centrifuge, just like a merry-go-round. In a merry-go-round, the spinning platform pushes you out in a straight line away from the platform. The constraining bar at the edge of the merry-go-round stops you from following this path -- it is constantly accelerating you toward the center of the platform.

The loop-the-loop in a roller coaster acts exactly the same way as a merry-go-round. As you approach the loop, your inertial velocity is straight ahead of you. But the track keeps the coaster car, and therefore your body, from traveling along this straight path. The force of your acceleration pushes you from the coaster-car floor, and your inertia pushes you into the car floor. Your own outward inertia creates a sort of false gravity that stays fixed at the bottom of the car even when you're upside down. You need a safety harness for security, but in most loop-the-loops, you would stay in the car whether you had a harness or not.

Photo courtesy of Coaster Central

A teardrop-shaped vertical loop in the Canyon

Blaster at the Adventure Dome in Las Vegas

As you move around the loop, the net force acting on your body is constantly changing. At the very bottom of the loop, the acceleration force is pushing you down in the same direction as gravity. Since both forces push you in the same direction, you feel especially heavy at this point. As you move straight up the loop, gravity is pulling you into your seat while the acceleration force is pushing you into the floor. You feel the gravity pulling you into your seat, but (if your eyes are still open) you can see that the ground is no longer where it should be.

At the top of the loop, when you're completely upside down, gravity is pulling you out of your seat, toward the ground, but the stronger acceleration force is pushing you into your seat, toward the sky. Since the two forces pushing you in opposite directions are nearly equal, your body feels very light. As in the sharp descent, you are almost weightless for the brief moment when you are at the top of the loop.

As you come out of the loop and level out, you become heavy again. The loop-the-loop is amazing because it crams so much into such a short length of track. The varying forces put your body through the whole range of sensations in a matter of seconds. While these forces are shaking up all the parts of your body, your eyes see the entire world flip upside down. To many coaster riders, this moment at the top of the loop, when you're light as a feather and all you can see is the sky, is the best part of the whole ride.

In a loop-the-loop, the intensity of the acceleration force is determined by two factors: the speed of the train and the angle of the turn. As the train enters the loop, it has maximum kinetic energy -- that is, it is moving at top speed. At the top of the loop, gravity has slowed the train down somewhat, so it has more potential energy and less kinetic energy -- it is moving at reduced speed.

Originally, roller-coaster designers made circle-shaped loops. In this design, the angle of the turn is constant all the way around. In order to build an acceleration force strong enough to push the train into the track at the top of the loop, they had to send the train into the loop at a fairly high rate of speed (so it would still be going pretty fast at the top of the loop). Greater speed meant a much greater force on the rider as he entered the loop, which could be fairly uncomfortable.

Notice the beginning in bold and underlined!!!

Look simple physics will tell you that if the train is going fast enough that the road wheels are in contact with the track, then the riders who are subjected to the same forces of the train, will remain in contact with their seats. If a coaster like a Schwarzkopf shuttle loop is designed such that the road wheels stay in contact during the loop, which they do, the riders will not fall out.

That is not to say that on Vortex during the corkscrews the road wheels are always in contact, that would be a case where restraints are necessary.

I am not going to explain what happens regarding gravity forces in a loop again, so go back and read my posts.

You obviously do not know, because SIMPLY PUT, if the centripetal force (or acceleration force) throughout the loop is greater than the force of gravity gravity, you will not fall out. END OF STORY, whether the loop is a eliptical or circular.

Also do not tell me to take my classes again or get my money back, thats just plain immature.

Thank you class.

PS this information is CONFIRMED.

My source is the Laws of Physics, Isaac Newton, and How-Stuff-Works.com

As David Lee Roth might say, CLASS DISMISSED! (For you older folk)

Looks like a pretty solid arguement.

[TheKlockster]

This thread is less about Vortex and more about how many times a person can stack a quote.

[Monroe]

KIBeast, class was dismissed a couple of pages ago when I said the same thing that 8th grade article said except that I did not say that you will not fall out. this is what I posted:

"making the ride completely safe" is the key. The forces involved are not strong enough to hold an individual in a seat without a restraint. The designers create the illusion of danger by designing the smallest and least obstructive restraint they can. A roller coaster only pulls at the most 4.5g and that is only for no longer than 4sec. G-forces that low have a very quick release, what I mean by that is the g-forces are strongest at the top of a loop because of speed. The forces will reverse for a fraction of a second at 3/4 of the way and then engage again at the bottom at a lower rate. In other words they are not constant, this will cause an object to move around. What direction depends on the variables such as weight and shape, or how that object is sitting, or standing. The only way to keep an object in one spot using g-forces is to use constant force without changing direction. An expert witness is fine for testifying, but I do not know a single designer that subscribes to the theory that a roller coaster can be designed that pulls less than 5g in a loop and keep you in your seat without a restraint. Math and Science days are in May, if you go, you will see what I am talking about.

It all boils down to two situations: A round loop or an elliptical loop. A round loop you have constant g's all the way through the loop. That is how Schwarzkopf was able to make his roller coasters without major restraints on them. Later restraints were added to all of his roller coasters. This coaster: http://rcdb.com/ig637.htm?picture=5 I was able to ride about a year after it opened and it had a lap bar on it. I still have not seen any video of it without restraints. Now on to the original argument. It was stated that MODERN DAY coasters are designed so you can ride them without restraints. That is not true, designers try to design coasters as comfortable as possible with the smallest and least amount of restraint. This is very hard to do with an elliptical loop, and the 0 g's encountered part of the way thru the loop. If you are encountering 0 g's you are not LOCKED in your seat, you are FLOATING. There is no telling where you will end up, unless you had something to guide you on where to stay. Enter the restraint system. I am not saying that every one will fall out, rather I am saying that there is a possibility that you will fall out without a restraint system. DeLorian Rider tried to take me to task over this without reading what the true argument was about and ended up saying some things that did not make a bit of sense. So I wanted to see if he could come around and say something intelligent on the topic. He did come up with some o.k. info, nothing that I would use for a high school or College class, but o.k. Then again I am beginning to sound REDUNDANT, and we all know that REDUNDANT is a trade term.

(Look Klockster, no stacking!!)

[DeLorean Rider]

I don’t know when the last time you were on a coaster was, but to make a ride more comfortable, a ride designer would not have a passenger pushed into their restraint, they would have them pushed into their seat.

Whether a loop is elliptical or circular does not matter as long as the forces throughout are greater than gravity.

A round loop you have constant g's all the way through the loop. That is how Schwarzkopf was able to make his roller coasters without major restraints on them.

You are WRONG! 100% WRONG!

The g's are not constant, they do decrease towards the top of the loop with the decrease in speed.

In case you don’t know how an elliptical loop works, making the radius at the top of the loop smaller (ie elliptical loop), INCREASES the outward forces on the rider PUSHING the rider into their SEAT even more at the top of the loop than with a circular loop. Physics man, BASIC physics. The problem with the circular loop was that at the sides of the loop the g's were high on the rider, yet at the top the g's were barely enough to keep the rider in. Designers found it difficult to find a balance as more speed kept people in at the top but blacked them out on the sides of the loop, the answer, the elliptical loop. Lower forces on the sides, higher forces at the top. What this means is that an elliptical loop holds people in their seats BETTER than a circular loop. Like I said PHYSICS BASIC PHYSICS.

The G-forces are more constant in an elliptical loop because as the speed decreases toward the top of the loop, the radius decreases, keeping the g-forces the same, as the ride speeds on the way back down the radius increases keeping the forces constant. This is NOT what would happen with a circular loop, the forces increase towards the bottom and decrease towards the top with the decrease in speed.

If anything circular loops made it harder for Schwarzkopf to keep riders in their seats.

Once again BASIC PHYSICS.

Try riding a B&M stand up coaster, do you think that the designers design it so you float around, NO, your knees nearly collapse through the loop which is why you have the bicycle seat; same on any B&M sit down coaster.

Ok information?? Sorry, I tried to make it as simple as possible so that you could understand it. If you'd like I could write out a proof for you; but it's not worth the effort.

The information is the same whether you're teaching it in high school, college, the industry, or someone who obviously does not understand it on a forum.

Like I said SCHOOL'S OUT!

[Browntggrr]

This tidbit of history seems like it belongs in this thread:

2/1/1977 - United States Patent #4,005,877, "Vehicle Passenger Restraint System," granted to Thomas Humphries and assigned to Arrow Development Corp. for the Corkscrew seat and bar mechanism.

[Monroe]

^^You cannot achieve 0 g's in a circular loop because of the centripital force being more constant due to the speed needed at the entrance. Schwarzkopf's loops were not completely round, they did have a slight tear drop to them but they were the most rounded of any manufacture. You can achieve 0 g's in an elliptical loop at 3/4 of the way not at the top, and I never said at the top the article that you used did.

" As in the sharp descent, you are almost weightless for the brief moment when you are at the top of the loop."

I am saying basically the same thing you are, only I do not subscribe to the thought of being able to design a coaster without restraints. There are too many variables to be able to design one without. As far as designing a comfortable coaster by keeping people in their seats, that is up to the designers. I never said that they have accomplished that task. Basically, you need to read what people say and understand it before you respond. The argument had to do with modern coasters, we would not be having this discussion if you did not go back to Schwarzkopf. And yes the information is the same, but the presentation is not. And the fact that the article had some misleading info did not help your credibility. (Which has been teetering with some of your earlier comments) Enough said on my part, as far as I am concerned my end is closed.

[DeLorean Rider]

^^You can not achieve 0 g's in a circuler loop because of the centrifical force being more constant due to the speed needed at the entrance. Schwarzkopf's loops were not completely round, they did have a slight tear drop to them but they were the most rounded of any manufactur. You can acheeve 0 g's in an eliptical loop at 3/4 of the way not at the top, and I never said at the top the artical that you used did.

" As in the sharp descent, you are almost weightless for the brief moment when you are at the top of the loop."

I am saying basicaly the same thing you are, only I do not subscribe to the thought of being able to design a coaster without restraints. There are too many variables to be able to design one without. As far as designing a comfertable coaster by keeping people in their seats, that is up to the designers. I never said that they have accomplished that task. Basically, you need to read what people say and understand it before you respond. The argument had to do with modern coasters, we would not be having this discussion if you did not go back to Schwarzkopf. And yes the information is the same, but the presentation is not. And the fact that the article had some misleading info did not help your credibility. (Which has been teadering with some of your earler coments) Enough said on my part, as far as I am concerned my end is closed.

Great! I'll take that as a concession.

It's about time. Every time I prove something to you, you change the argument or say "that's not what I meant." All you're doing is nit picking. It does not change the fact that you said that you fall out of loops without restraints, that circular loops have constant forces, the Schwarzkopf's coasters had circular loops, and everything else you said that was not true. You were looking for a fight when you said:

^^O.K. I will flat out say it. You are wrong, and a couple of examples of new and relocated coasters to prove my point that restraints are there to hold you in at all times not just for accidents. You really need to take a physics class.

Then I spoke up and you said I needed to get my money back for my classes. I gave you a fight and I proved you wrong and you can't get over it. All you're doing is changing your story and going after stupid little parts of the argument. You're like a child who doesn't know how to loose.

You were wrong, accept it and get over it.

Almost weightless is a whole hell of a lot different than weightless, weightless, you float; almost weightless, you are still stuck to the seat.

The bottom line is, a coaster could easily be designed such that restraints would not be necessary, and there are many many coasters today that according to the laws of physics, do NOT need restraints to keep riders in their seats. The restraints are there for psychological reassurance, for liability, and because above all else, average park guests are stupid; maybe that's why YOU always need a restraint on a roller coaster.

P.S.

You can not achieve 0 g's in a circuler loop because of the centrifical force being more constant due to the speed needed at the entrance.

That statement about not being able to achieve 0 g's in a circular loop is wrong. I'll say this as simple as possible, if you can design a roller coaster so that it hangs at the top of the loop, then you can design a coaster to make you experience 0'g's in the top of the loop, all that has to be is that the CENTRIPITAL force at the top, is equal to the force of gravity; forces cancel out, G's = 0. Given that the only area of interest is the top of the loop, its shape DOES NOT MATTER.

Oh and by the way, centrifical is NOT a word. Perhaps you were planning on using the term Centrifugal force, which is still only a virtual force that is not able to be calculated (which you would know if you had taken physics). The force felt throughout the loop that can be accounted for is the centripetal force. And you're telling other people to take physics classes. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

You still do not understand that the centripetal force in a circular loop is NOT constant. The forces in an elliptical loop are way more constant than a circular loop because the loss of speed towards the top is accounted for by the decrease in radius, therefore keeping the centripetal force and g's the same. In a circular loop, the decrease in speed yet constant radius causes a sharp decrease in centripetal force and g's, meaning MUCH GREATER fluctuation in g's. Circular loops require greater speed to maintain safe g's at the top of the loop, but cause unsafe g's in the sides of the loop. How many times do I have to ****ing say this??? Have you never seen an article about elliptical loops vs. circular loops??? They all say the same thing!

TAKE A darn PHYSICS CLASS ALREADY!!!

Also cannot is ONE word.

See I can nit pick over stupid stuff in the argument just like you, but I don't need to because I'm not the one constantly trying to change the subject. (this is definitely a trend in your argument)

And you really need to use spell check, you're spelling and grammar are way off. Notice all the bold italicized words in your quote, they're all misspelled. Maybe you should take an English class while you're at it as well.

School is out for SUMMER!

[Raptor66]

I don't know how relevant this is, I'm not a physics major, but.....

If you have ever ridden an enterprise like Witches' Wheel, there are no restraints at all, just a little metal door.

[DeLorean Rider]

Well this makes a good point dealing with circular loops. With an enterprise wheel, the speed of the car is kept constant, the radius or curvature is kept constant, meaning the g-forces are kept constant. With a roller coaster, the train slows down at the top meaning the g's are not kept constant in a circular loop. However when the radius at the top is reduced proportionately to the decrease in speed, the g-forces are kept constant, ie elliptical loop.

(To say this for the 4th time)

And like he said, this ride has no restraints.

[Colonel_SoB_fan]

I don't know how relevant this is, I'm not a physics major, but.....

If you have ever ridden an enterprise like Witches' Wheel, there are no restraints at all, just a little metal door.

Man that reminds me how much I want Skylab back

[TheKlockster]

The HUSS Enterprise and similar rides use a motor to keep the speed constant. Roller coasters gain all of their energy from the lift chain, and that energy has to get them through the whole ride. Because a train loses energy as it moves away from the earth, it slows down. That means its speed at the bottom of a loop is faster than it is at the top. In order to maintain a constant rate (or near constant rate) of acceleration (the rate of change of velocity), the radius of the loop becomes shorter at the top of the loop than is at the entrance and exit to the loop.

Like Nick said it is basic physics. All of this stuff is covered in the first few chapters of an average high school physics textbook. So go do some research or something. DeLorean rider knows what he's talking about, and you aren't going to prove him wrong.

Also - they don't do circular loops because the speed at which you would have to be moving to clear the track element would subject you to extreme changes in acceleration (jerks) at the entrance and exit to the loop. I think original circular-loop coasters pulled like 9G in force.

The loops you see on modern rides - INCLUDING Schwarzkopf - use the CLOTHOID shape - not the circle. If you really look closely - Schwarzkopf coasters do indeed use clothoid loops, though they aren't as teardrop shaped as what you might see on a B&M model.

[XGatorHead 8904]

As you go around a loop-the-loop, your inertia not only produces an exciting acceleration force, but it also keeps you in the seat when you're upside down.

I'm scared of a source that calls it a loop-the-loop. It sounds like it was written by my father-in-law who calls coasters "rollie coasters".

And you really need to use spell check, you're spelling and grammar are way off.

When correcting someone's grammar, you may want to check that your grammar is correct as well.

And here I go running away and ducking, the whole time swearing that I'm not taking sides in the physics argument because it's been 17 years since I've taken a physics class and most of that stuff has left my brain, but I did get an A+ in that class! But everything I've said here is in jest, trying to lighten the mood...

[Monroe]

Besides the spelling and grammar errors, in which I am always happy to admit that I am not perfect and I do make mistakes, I have not flip flopped on any thing. DeLorian Rider, you are the one who started this argument in the direction it went. You are also the one that sounds like you are trying to dig yourself out of a hole, and once again I would like to see the video and I would like to see where I said that EVERY ONE WILL FALL OUT. Like I said, I will not argue this point any more. The previous post that had the errors in it will be fixed in a moment, I was not on a pc that had spell check on it and that was my worst class.

[KIBeast]

KIBeast, class was dismissed a couple of pages ago when I said the same thing that 8th grade article said except that I did not say that you will not fall out. this is what I posted:

Oh, I was just trying to be funny and at the same time, I was really agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion. I was just commenting on how you were schooling someone.

[Monroe]

That's o.k. I was just trying to keep DeLorian Rider going, he was on a pretty good roll with the insults. Also there is no need to agree with me, just discover for yourself. I normally do not argue about technical items, but he tends to put his foot in his mouth at times so I figured I would keep it going.

[BavarianBeatle]

Well.... there has been some discussion in this thread about who "started" this argument, and, unfortunately, I believe it was me.

Alhough I agree with DeLorean about the physics, I hope that this is a "family" argument.... In other words, I have a brother and a sister and we fought like cats and dogs growing up, but, in the end, we still loved each other.........The people on this site all love the park, and we all love roller coasters, and, when this argument is over, we should all just ride together and experience the thrills and excitement that brought us all here in the first place.... And then relax at the lake by Bubba Gumps, drink a beer, and toast how happy we are to be there.......

After all, don't we go to KI to just have fun and escape the problems and petty conflicts in our lives????????