Scott Sloan takes on the Re-Reinvented Racer.

[Gordon Bombay]

I believe that was the same guy who said they used to give kids life vests and let the dolphins pull them around in the salt water circus pool.

Nothing was better than that woman from Delhi though.....wow.

[Rollercoast19]

Nothing was better than that woman from Delhi though.....wow.

[Outdoor Man]

OK- didn't hear it live and the WLW podcast is all screwed up. So I heard half of it.

It seems that the suggestion was from the marketing department to switch the direction in response to the mis-workings of The Bat.

Don did mention that the "restoration" wouldn't really stop there....

I wonder what that means for the rest of the park. Now I'm not naive to think that our scouts in the sky have suddenly stopped doing fly-overs... more or less protecting the info for the park... and I respect that.

What "other" things do any of you think are getting restored? I would like to think the following:

- the landscaping on the fountains return. The paramount years really disintigrated the unique landscaping of the park.

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

So basically, Mr. Helbig claims they are turning recaR back to forwards for nostalgic reasons. Let me be the first to say...what a crock!

Uh huh, sure. I'm very certain that the park thought it "strategic" to try to recreate nostalgia from the 70's. I'm sure that will cause people to come to the park in droves, or that it will make everyone have a better experience. Please!

He doesn't even mention what has been reported other places, which is that this is being done to be in agreement with changes at other Cedar Fair parks. At least that isn't a flat out lie! I understand that you want to say things which are marketable for the park, and saying that they are doing it to cover their arse in case of any "incident" with the trains is not very marketable. But does that mean you should just lie about it? There is no integrity in that.

What's so wrong with saying that it is the manufacturer's recommendation that both sides run forwards to ensure the safety of all riders? It can't be worse than the MF seatbelf fiasco at CP, when they shortened all the belt lengths which caused many folks who had been able to ride for years to be turned away.

It's too bad because I really seemed to like Mr. Helbig. I don't believe what he said about The Beast being the best coaster in the world either. What's his favorite food? Cinnabon?

[Gordon Bombay]

Ya know, I'll be the first to admit I don't like a lot of the things Cedar Fair brought to Kings Island, but there are some things I do. However, pagoda, your post is pretty far off base.

So basically, Mr. Helbig claims they are turning recaR back to forwards for nostalgic reasons. Let me be the first to say...what a crock!

-Definitely an opinion many share, but does anyone know the "real" reasons? Not really, everyone just has speculation.

Uh huh, sure. I'm very certain that the park thought it "strategic" to try to recreate nostalgia from the 70's. I'm sure that will cause people to come to the park in droves, or that it will make everyone have a better experience. Please!

-Did you listen to the broadcast and to what Mr. Helbig said? Turning The Racer around is not the only thing they are doing to try and bring back charm to the park, like was found in the 1970's. He also noted that there is a new emphasis on entertainment with six shows, three new, compared to just two under the previous owners. He also mentioned an emphasis on landscaping and the park experience as a whole.

He doesn't even mention what has been reported other places, which is that this is being done to be in agreement with changes at other Cedar Fair parks. At least that isn't a flat out lie!

-While maybe the marketing departments at Kings Dominion and Carowinds aren't re-emphasizing the ideas KI has gone with this year, who are you to say that the park is lying unless you have some evidence of other information?

I understand that you want to say things which are marketable for the park, and saying that they are doing it to cover their arse in case of any "incident" with the trains is not very marketable.

-As Don noted in the broadcast there was no "incident" with the trains that spurred this.

But does that mean you should just lie about it? There is no integrity in that.

-Unless you have evidence proving otherwise, then how did they lie?

What's so wrong with saying that it is the manufacturer's recommendation that both sides run forwards to ensure the safety of all riders?

-Where has the manufacturer said that? The stat of Ohio has laws stating that all amusement park operators must follow manufacturers recommendations, and as far as I know, no one has pointed out there the train manufacturer has recommended this change.

[Pagoda Gift Shop]

I wouldn't say my post is far off base. It certainly is based on speculation and my own opinion, but I'm not forming it without evidence. I'm just using basic logic to chain together events which seem to indicate that the real truth is not being told. Here's the best quote I could dig up.

Even though PTC had a good working relationship with KECO/Paramount, I am sure I heard Tom Rebbie publicly state sometime in the mid-late 1990s, when a question about backwards trains was posed to him, that PTC did not stand behind its cars if they were turned to run backwards, and all parks that did that knew it. He also stated that if any park requested PTC to build a set of cars specifically designed to run backwards, he would build them.

Now, obviously I can't prove an unknown source to be trustworthy, but it makes sense. Even Mr. Helbig mentioned that one side was turned around shortly after The Bat was having serious problems. Do you really think PTC would give their approval to do such a thing so quickly? Obviously we don't know for sure, but it's a viable theory.

Turning The Racer around is not the only thing they are doing to try and bring back charm to the park, like was found in the 1970's.

I exaggerated a little here. I agree that it is not the only thing. My issue is that the so-called "primary reason" this is being done is for nostalgia. I would not be concerned if he had said they were doing it to conform with policies in other Cedar Fair parks AND to add nostalgia. If it was, why wait so long to announce it? Why not announce this change along with the other factors which will help re-create atmosphere?

At ACE Winter SOAR, Mr Helbig said that a decision had not yet been made about the ride. To me, this indicates that discussions were still taking place within KI and with CF corporate about what should be done. Why would there be so much discussion if they were simply doing it to return to 70's atmosphere?

As Don noted in the broadcast there was no "incident" with the trains that spurred this.

No, I was speaking with regards to the future. Here's what I would hypothesize:

- Cedar Fair has placed a renewed emphasis on safety in recent years, from seatbelts on almost every coaster, to ride operation policies.

- All backwards running Racer coasters were not operating according to how they were initially designed. This means possible safety issues. More importantly, it means PTC is not liable in the event of any accident/malfunction because the ride is not running according to their full instruction.

- Cedar Fair decides to ensure that this issue is resolved and begins talking to the parks to enforce the new corporate policy.

- The parks must deal with it as best they can. For KI, by integrating this as part of creating nostalgic atmosphere.

Again, this is only what I think to be true, but I would venture there are many folks out there who agree or have similar theories. Changes like this cost money after all. I think it will be interesting to see if they only run 1 side during slow times. Then they'll be saving money as well! Does that not sound like CF corporate?

EDIT:

I found another quote from a source I would consider credible.

There exists a bulletin from PTC dated 12/01/1991 which states that,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Philadelphia Toboggan Coasters, Inc. does not nor has it ever recommended or approved running PTCI coaster cars backward for the following reasons:

1. The fact that body dynamics change when seated backwards, which will result in completely different reactions upon the human body.

2. A person who is unable to view forward motion cannot physically prepare for the effects of the ride before they occur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[XGatorHead 8904]

What's so wrong with saying that it is the manufacturer's recommendation that both sides run forwards to ensure the safety of all riders? It can't be worse than the MF seatbelf fiasco at CP, when they shortened all the belt lengths which caused many folks who had been able to ride for years to be turned away.

It would be wrong to say that it's the manufacturer's recommendation if that is not actually true. I'm sure that if that were the case, CF would have stated that as the reason rather than their current one.

I was one of those people affected by the MF seatbelt "fiasco". MF is my favorite coaster, I rode it for several years and couldn't the next, not because of any weight gain, which had remained the same, but because the seatbelts were shortened. The CP associate working the test seat explained to me that the belts were shortened due to manufacturer recommendation. I was PO'd at the time (especially since KI didn't even use belts on their coasters at the time, so why even have them in the first place?), but once I cooled off and thought about it, it made sense to me and who was I to question it? Even though I didn't like it, it had the safety of the riders in mind.

If it had been the manufacturer's suggestion to turn recaR around again, that would sit better with me than "returning the nostalgia", but unfortunately that is not the case. I appreciate many of the changes CF is trying to bring back to the park, such as entertainment, landscaping and the like, but how about the nostalgia for those who knew Racer as not only forwards, but backwards as well. I was there in the 70's, and loved Racer then, loved it a little more when it went backwards too. But it ran backwards 2 1/2 times longer than both sides ran forward (26 years vs. 10 years). Using simple logic based on the number of years (and I'm not even taking into consideration growth in attendance over the years), it can be deduced that more people would remember it as backwards than as both forwards. So the nostalgia of the minority outweighs the nostalgia of the majority in this case.

[WooferBearATL]

Well, however you feel about them changing The Racer's both to forward, the reason given that it is for nostalgia is quite the crock.

I'd agree with Pagoda. Certainly, some may choose to believe that is the reason but I think that most here are adult enough to know that is not the real reason.

I would actually like to hear what the real reason is. Will we ever find out? Probably not from the park directly, but it probably is one of the multiple reasons that has been posted on the board.

[mikejenkins1]

And it appears the GP loved the backwards side. I would say 9 out of 10 times I got in line for The Racer, the backwards line was 3 - 4 times as long as frontwards. So I think if the GP is polled, they would say keep it. But hopefully it is a safety issue and that I can live with......

[XGatorHead 8904]

Well, however you feel about them changing The Racer's both to forward, the reason given that it is for nostalgia is quite the crock.

Exactly. I've been quite vocal on the subject these past few days. They claim it's nostalgia, but my feeling is that it is actually to save on labor/maintenance later this season. With both sides now going forward, the park will not feel as obligated to run both sides of Racer, since they are no longer two completely different ride experiences. And with only one side running, what will it be racing? I'll hold out a little hope that it will live up to it's name, but when the day comes that it only runs one side, I will call for a re-name of the ride to "Practice Lap" .

I hope that I did not give the impression in my previous post above that I was agreeing with CF's "nostalgia" reason. Nothing could be farther than the truth. I was just trying to make the point that if it was actually due to manufacturer's recommendation, they most likely would have said so to begin with, which was the case when I was told that was the reason for the seatbelt shortening on MF a few years ago.

[Beast1979]

There exists a bulletin from PTC dated 12/01/1991 which states that,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Philadelphia Toboggan Coasters, Inc. does not nor has it ever recommended or approved running PTCI coaster cars backward for the following reasons:

1. The fact that body dynamics change when seated backwards, which will result in completely different reactions upon the human body.

2. A person who is unable to view forward motion cannot physically prepare for the effects of the ride before they occur.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's Something I can Agree With!

IMO I don't think it's a smart Idea to turn the trains backward if the manufacturer does not recommend or approve doing so. I bet they did test runs to make sure that it wouldn't kill people, but If I were maneger or whatever if the manufacturer doesn't approve, then neither do I.

[Gordon Bombay]

Mr. Sloan was kind enough to link to KICentral on his blog and posted the "decision 2008" poster I made using photos by Dane and Ryan. Check it out here: http://www.700wlw.com/pages/onair_scottsloan.html You just have to scroll down a little bit. (WARNING: While no nudity, there are "risque" photos that may not be appropriate for younger viewers.

[Outdoor Man]

i would tend to side with the liability reason that was posted regarding original construction design. Although I thin kDon did a decent job of being genuinely enthusiastic about the change. As some of you in marketing will agree.... our companies try to get us to slap drastic amounts of lipstick on some pretty ugly pigs sometimes.

While nostaglia is a decent gesture... it doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. If that were the case, Eagles would be coming back, the sky Ride would be re-installed- Lions, Tigers, and Bears would inhabit the Rose Bowl (of SOB), and Screamin Demon would fly once again. That's nostaglia. Essentially now we will have two identical rides for a coaster that hasn't had a line in years.

But, Don's demeanor in the interview seemed genuine and believable. I'd give him 4-stars.

[BoddaH1994]

You know, KI has been on many TV stations, radio shows, newspapers, etc and has hundreds of posts about this subject. Think many the buzz that it has created would be another reason to do this? I'd say so.

I can assure you that this had nothing to do with safety. As posted above, PTC was NEVER in favor of doing it. They didn't stop them, but they didn't recommend it. Clearly it was time-tested and proved to be safe. Plus, if there were an incident, don't you think SOMEBODY from these forums would have posted about it?

[WooferBearATL]

You know, KI has been on many TV stations, radio shows, newspapers, etc and has hundreds of posts about this subject. Think many the buzz that it has created would be another reason to do this? I'd say so.

I can assure you that this had nothing to do with safety. As posted above, PTC was NEVER in favor of doing it. They didn't stop them, but they didn't recommend it. Clearly it was time-tested and proved to be safe. Plus, if there were an incident, don't you think SOMEBODY from these forums would have posted about it?

Newspapers, TV Stations and Radio Station will generally run a blurb on any press release from a large local entity.

If KI had sent out a memo that they'd flushed the toilet in Rivertown it would have made it into one medium or another.

[The Interpreter]

Yeah, if the toilet gets flushed, the water does end up in a medium or another....

Terpy, running for the door

[BavarianBeatle]

If its all about nostalgia, thy should play Brady Bunch songs in the queue lines!!!!

[raptor]

where is the nostalgia on the train, I don't think the original intent was to be little more than a transport to the water park, make it a train ride again

[SOB_TOM]

I love the fact that many take everything for face value.

Lets look at some other considerations that could be taken into account:

Maintenance: With one side turned around, maintenance costs go up. Not to mention that there are other inspections that must be done, which costs more money.

Manpower: On slow days, with recaR and Racer, both sides still had to be staffed. As much as you are not going to like this possibility, now they only need to staff one side, which will cut down on manpower costs AS WELL AS maintenance costs.

There are other possibilities other than nostalgia that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Helbig does not want to put as the reason. Plus, nostalgic reasons might draw others into the park.

[WooferBearATL]

I love the fact that many take everything for face value.

Lets look at some other considerations that could be taken into account:

Maintenance: With one side turned around, maintenance costs go up. Not to mention that there are other inspections that must be done, which costs more money.

Manpower: On slow days, with recaR and Racer, both sides still had to be staffed. As much as you are not going to like this possibility, now they only need to staff one side, which will cut down on manpower costs AS WELL AS maintenance costs.

There are other possibilities other than nostalgia that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Helbig does not want to put as the reason. Plus, nostalgic reasons might draw others into the park.

Tom, we know that the reason is one of those. Mr. Helbig is working a bit of "spin" there to say it's all about nostalgia. I really don't think that anyone (save maybe 1 or 2) believes that the reason is for nostalgia.

[King Maple The Tree King]

I love the fact that many take everything for face value.

Lets look at some other considerations that could be taken into account:

Maintenance: With one side turned around, maintenance costs go up. Not to mention that there are other inspections that must be done, which costs more money.

Manpower: On slow days, with recaR and Racer, both sides still had to be staffed. As much as you are not going to like this possibility, now they only need to staff one side, which will cut down on manpower costs AS WELL AS maintenance costs.

There are other possibilities other than nostalgia that maybe, just maybe, Mr. Helbig does not want to put as the reason. Plus, nostalgic reasons might draw others into the park.

a.k.a. pages 2 - 3 of this topic.

Woofer I am 1 of the 2!

<G>

[Thrill_Biscuit]

If nostalgia was such a big concern, I'd go the cheap route, leave Racer alone and put international music back on Internatinal Street...

[King Maple The Tree King]

If Nostalgia was the reason don't you think they could give it a fresh coat of paint or at least get some of the gum off of the walls?

I think budget and other reasons like SOB_TOM noted are the reasons we are getting a "re-invented" racer and "entertainment" (if you can call CF shows that).....not nostalgia.

[Beast1979]

I hardly think that turning the backwards racer to it's origional state is about nostalgia.

If nostalgia's what you're aiming for, you've only scratched the surface.

[The Interpreter]

Once upon a time, there was a tavern

Where we used to raise a glass or two

Remember how we laughed away the hours,

Think of all the great things we would do

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we'd choose

We'd fight and never lose

For we were young and sure to have our way

La La La La La La

La La La La La La

La La La La La La La La La La

(Mary Hopkins, Those Were The Days, My Friend)

[WooferBearATL]

One Year The Park Made Up T-Shirts for everyone that said "Where Everybody Knows Your Name."

Some of the folk in Resale put a slide show together to the song and played it at either the Luau or Pig Roast Employee Party.

[Thrill_Biscuit]

Once upon a time, there was a tavern

Where we used to raise a glass or two

Remember how we laughed away the hours,

Think of all the great things we would do

Those were the days, my friend

We thought they'd never end

We'd sing and dance forever and a day

We'd live the life we'd choose

We'd fight and never lose

For we were young and sure to have our way

La La La La La La

La La La La La La

La La La La La La La La La La

(Mary Hopkins, Those Were The Days, My Friend)

Oh, Terpy, Whyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Well, if you're going to put a melody in our heads, at least you chose one with a 'troika' beat.

[Hank]

OK - so The Racer now goes forward no matter what. So let's turn another coaster around - imagine riding The Beast backwards, especially at night!

[Thrill_Biscuit]

That would be an intense ride, especially at night!