Kentucky Kingdom

[BeeastFarmer]

Gordon Bombay, I'd have to say your statements sound logical.  However, that would be a bad business decision for Cedar Fair.  In my opinion, the company should pay attention to threats that entice customer base.  Louisville is a huge demographic for Kings Island.  I'm sure that local people have been happy to go to Kentucky Kingdom.  It may be that they still go to Kings Island and/or Holiday World, too.  But instead of multiple trips yearly, now they may just drive 20 minutes to Kentucky Kingdom instead.  That in turn decreases in park spending. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I am just stating that I hope Kentucky Kingdom's competition does not ignore it.

[The Interpreter]

Hmmm.

Falling Trees?

Doesn't sound like ignoring to me...

[BeeastFarmer]

Maybe I extrapolated to much out of this statement by Gordon Bombay:

 

" if anything, they're more curious about Holiday World and probably just chuckling at KK when they're not asking: "that park is open again?""

 

Falling trees could be something big or something small.  It could have been in planning stages for years, or it could be a response to the reopened Kentucky Kingdom and a new roller coaster at Holiday world.  I'd guess (and I am not using the word conjecture, because I am very much a novice in this business) that it is the second option.

[The Interpreter]

"it could be...", but (signal lost).

[Gordon Bombay]

Gordon Bombay, I'd have to say your statements sound logical. However, that would be a bad business decision for Cedar Fair. In my opinion, the company should pay attention to threats that entice customer base. Louisville is a huge demographic for Kings Island. I'm sure that local people have been happy to go to Kentucky Kingdom. It may be that they still go to Kings Island and/or Holiday World, too. But instead of multiple trips yearly, now they may just drive 20 minutes to Kentucky Kingdom instead. That in turn decreases in park spending.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise, I am just stating that I hope Kentucky Kingdom's competition does not ignore it.

I'm sure they're paying attention to it, but is it (and Holiday World) as big a threat as some here would like to believe?

I sincerely doubt it.

[BeeastFarmer]

It depends on who you ask.  A diehard Kentucky Kingdom person, yes it is a threat.  A diehard Kings Island person, not so much.

 

I love Kings Island.  Some of my earliest childhood memories revolve around chickening out of the Kings Mill Log flume ride when it was time to board, and the Wisteria Tunnel.  (I think I was four or five at the time.)  Up until last year, I would have never thought of visiting Kentucky Kingdom, after the last experience I had there in 2008 or 2009.  But someone on this board suggested that I do, and I was impressed.  It's a great alternative if I want a smaller park and a much smaller drive.

 

I visited Kentucky Kingdom six times last year.  I average about $10 out of pocket spending each visit.  So, right there is $60 that was spent NOT at Kings Island.  Do conservative math, and if X amount of people spend X amount of dollars not at Kings Island, it hits their financials.  So even if revenue is up at Kings Island, if the competition is there, it is not up as much as it could be.  I am sure they take notice at Cedar Fair and plan accordingly.  Kentucky Kingdom will probably never be a three million gate admittance park, so it is not as if it is a threat in size or scope, but it does present an opportunity for a smart corporation to maintain or increase market share.  Competition is a great thing.

[Gordon Bombay]

if I want a smaller park and a much smaller drive.

Again, like I said, they're probably more than aware of people like you who are closer to KK and may chose to visit it over KI, but are they worried about it hitting the bulk of their sales or pulling away their season pass base.

Again, I doubt it.

Your $60 over the course of a year is probably more than made up by one family who spends the day eating in the pro.

[BeeastFarmer]

$60 from me is no big deal...but pull that out into bigger numbers.  Numbers are not in my knowledgebase, but let's suppose some assumptions:

 

10,000 one day visits lost from KI over a season-from less visits to KI by season pass holders to folks who just don't drive to Mason because there is a closer option.

Each guest spends $10 on in-park merchandise.

1000 people choose a season pass to KK and not KI.

$100,000 lost in in-park revenue over the season.

$90,000 lost in season pass sales.

$190,000 over the course of one season.

Not to mention losses in parking revenue, upsales like lockers, Funpix. Slingshot/Skycoaster etc.

 

Again, I have no ideas about specific revenues, but I would guess my numbers are conservative.  I don't think Cedar Fair is pacing and rubbing temples, but I do think they are noticing lost revenue.  If not, they should.  And I feel fairly confident that the Soak City expansion is a direct response to the water park at both Holiday World and Kentucky Kingdom.  When I waited in Soak City with my friend last summer, while her son did the attractions he wanted, it was miserable.  By casual glance at the other water parks, I could surmise they were much better.  (I'm not a water park guy, myself.)

[The Interpreter]

Water parks draw from much smaller areas. People in Louisville don't drive to Mason, Ohio just to go to Soak City or The Beach.

[FoF96"]

No they do not, however when I was younger (about 12) my family DID drive 1.5 hours just for Splashin Safari. (And of course to see Pat, the nice old woman from the commercials)

[Vortex lover]

Going tomorrow will hopefully have a trip report up!

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[Joncars05]

 

 

I'm not suggesting KI should be resting or doing nothing but if you are talking about greater Cincinnati/Dayton/Columbus-Or most of Ohio people, I would gather that a majority don't know/care that KK is open and probably forget about HW. Most people in the state stay true to the 2 parks they know and love (KI or CP) while a a good number miss GL.

If Anything KI's only competition from HW and KK are from the guests in that area who know about those parks. Unless/until HW or KK do an extensive media blitz in the Cincy/Ohio area

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Based off of the number I have gathered both KK and HW have a combined attendance right around 2 million people last year. That is around the total attendance of Carowinds last year. You can say people have forgotten about HW or KK but the numbers say otherwise.

I will agree and say that KI is on a completely different level than KK and HW. That is mainly due to KI belonging to a international theme park chain. Both HW and KK are independent parks. Both KK and HW will likely never truly challenge KI for top dog in the tri-state area, but 2 million visitors a year is a very sizeable chunk of the theme park market. To say that people have forgotten about HW and KK is a stretch at best.

You mean "reported" attendance by two private companies who benefit from making sure that number is as high as possible without sounding too unrealistic. KI generates a solid majority of its business from pass holders and return visits. Kentucky Kingdom used to when six flags flew above its entrance (and didn't bother investing much because those local pass holders kept returning). Holiday World and KK are only a threat in that they may possibly prevent some consumers from traveling up 71 to Kings Island.

However, even when Six Flags still operated KK, they abandoned plans to be any direct threat to KI and instead just focused on the local market. After "Twisted Sisters/Twins debuted, you stopped seeing Six Flags adverts in the Cincinnati market.

You'll never convert Holiday World pass holders into KI holders several hours up the road, so I doubt KI is too concerned with Koch family drama world.

In short, the "two million" (through the gate per year, not entirely separate individuals) are probably more like a fly buzzing hours down I-71. Cedar Fair probably keeps an eye on it, but probably doesn't care, if anything, they're more curious about Holiday World and probably just chuckling at KK when they're not asking: "that park is open again?"

 

 

I've said it once before and I'll say it again. To say that KI and CF are only 'curious' about a park that had 1.3 million visitors (2014 attendance numbers that I found) adding a $22 million one of a kind B&M coaster, and are 'chuckling' at a park that just added a coaster from a well renowned company (RMC), built a brand new extremely well received Chance coaster, and revamped two other coasters in only 2 years, is misguided. Are KK or HW every going to dethrone KI as the go to amusement park in the tri-state area no. But I can guarentee that the recent additions at HW and the opening at KK have hinder the profit margin at KI. Even though CF has been reporting record profits just think about how much more they could've made if KK hadn't opened or HW hadn't built Thunderbird. Because I am not talking about season pass holders I am talking about families that take only one trip a year to amusement parks. I feel as if both HW and KK attract those type of visitors more than KI. So to not make any adjustments while competition less than 3 hours away are making major moves would be not in the best interest of the park. I truly believe this new project from KI is a response to HW and possibly KK and their park additions. Again the competition, even if on different levels, is great because it forces the parks to be active and improve every year.

Hmmm.

Falling Trees?

Doesn't sound like ignoring to me...

 

That is exactly what I mean! I am with you on this one! 

[LoraX]

Water parks draw from much smaller areas. People in Louisville don't drive to Mason, Ohio just to go to Soak City or The Beach.

People in Mason do not drive to The Beach.

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[BeeastFarmer]

Before waterparks were part of  amusement parks, and when I was a  youth, our church youth group drove to The Beach from 2.5 hours away.  How things have changed!

 

Also interesting to note:  When Kentucky Kingdom reopened in 2014, it added Professor John's Flying Machine and The Frogs ride in the kids area.  Kings Island added Woodstock Gliders and Snoopy's Space Buggies as major attractions in 2015--both essentially the same rides as Kentucky Kingdom added the year before.  Coincidence?

[Gordon Bombay]

Doesn't even know what Kings Island's latest project is, how long it took to plan, etc. yet it's "In response to Holiday World/Kentucky Kingdom" because they "feel" families "that make one trip a year" are no longer choosing KI.

I think your ACEr fanny pack is on a bit tight.

[stashua123]

I would not go that far(Are you sure he is an ACEr? Bit low to say that...)....

 

KI DID respond in 1999-2000 to KK with a 35 million dollar expansion that lead SIX to move its plans elsewhere to a World of Adventure. 2015, HW responded to KK reopening with a Thunderbird, 2016, KK responded with a Storm Chaser. 2017? Now we have falling trees in KI. 

 

I am not saying that they planned whatever they are building because of competition, this could have been in the planning stages since Banshee opened or even before. 

 

I don't know what is being built at KI, and those who are speaking in the Decoding thread have no idea either. 

 

EDIT: Thanks Terpy

[The Interpreter]

Not $50 million.

$35 million...

[Joncars05]

Doesn't even know what Kings Island's latest project is, how long it took to plan, etc. yet it's "In response to Holiday World/Kentucky Kingdom" because they "feel" families "that make one trip a year" are no longer choosing KI.

I think your ACEr fanny pack is on a bit tight.

I am far from an ACE member so please don't try and insult me. We are merely having a discussion as we don't know what the inner working of any park are. Your opinion is pure speculation as is my opinion is purely speculation. If my opinion upset you enough to start calling names and trying to insult a person you have never met then you need to just step back from the keyboard and chill.

[Gordon Bombay]

Some of us have worked for the industry, familiar with "inner workings" and opinion's on nearby "rivals."

Some of us get excited about meeting Don Helbig by The Vortex photo booth.

[The Interpreter]

And some of us have Ed Hart try to keep us outside of his park, even though we had wallet in hand, ready to spend.

[Joncars05]

Some of us have worked for the industry, familiar with "inner workings" and opinion's on nearby "rivals."

Some of us get excited about meeting Don Helbig by The Vortex photo booth.

Unless you are on the payroll you don't know anything as fact. If you did know then you wouldn't be saying anything on a forum. NDA's prevent that. Just because you have a operated a ride back when you were a teenager and have decent talking relationship with Don doesn't mean you know the inner workings of a park.

What is Terpy's line again? Those who know don't speak?

[shark6495]

I think everyone needs a moment to just chill and relax.

Look if you live in the tri-park area (HW, KK, and KI) you are lucky to have a large regional, a large local, and whatever KK becomes park within easy driving distance. Pointing out statements such as:

A lot of people in Ohio have forgotten or don't know about KK or HW is not a slam on those two parks. It's a referral to the lack of advertising to this area.

KK or HW gets a new awesome ride. That's not a slam on KI.

Maybe KI plan is in response to KK. Maybe it's not.

Maybe KI wants to attract more KK and HW goers. KK and HW are not actively marketing in this area (Cincy) so they are not going for KI customers.

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[stashua123]

 

Some of us have worked for the industry, familiar with "inner workings" and opinion's on nearby "rivals."

Some of us get excited about meeting Don Helbig by The Vortex photo booth.

Unless you are on the payroll you don't know anything as fact. If you did know then you wouldn't be saying anything on a forum. NDA's prevent that. Just because you have a operated a ride back when you were a teenager and have decent talking relationship with Don doesn't mean you know the inner workings of a park.

What is Terpy's line again? Those who know don't speak?

 

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.”

 

-Lao Tzu 

[Gordon Bombay]

Ha I've done quite a bit more than just "operate a ride" as a "teenager" and for avenues in the industry other than just Ohio parks.

Keep on being a Holiday World apologist, you're vastly over estimating their "impact."

Edit: Holy hell, I finally understand where ErosArrow05 was coming from all these years now.

[Joncars05]

Ha I've done quite a bit more than just "operate a ride" as a "teenager" and for avenues in the industry other than just Ohio parks.

Keep on being a Holiday World apologist, you're vastly over estimating their "impact."

Edit: Holy hell, I finally understand where ErosArrow05 was coming from all these years now.

Again if you are not on the current payroll you have no idea what their plans are and why they are executing it. And yes I am a HW apologist. Just like I am an apologist for KI, KK, and all of the other parks out there. I rarely, if ever, talk down about any park and I most certainly never name call anyone on this board for disagreeing with my opinion either...

[Gordon Bombay]

Again, read what I said. I never claimed to know "what plans are" or why "they were executing it." All said, was that no one here knows what KI's current project is, how long it took to construct, or that it's somehow magically in response to Holiday World.

I also reiterated, and will assert again, KK and HW are not the attendance threats that fanboys here like to believe they are. Is CF aware of them, yes. Are they quaking in their Sandusky boots? No.

Just because you like to ride The Voyage doesn't mean Holiday World is making deep cuts into KI's attendance base.

[JTR]

Haven't posted here in a long, long time, so hello again! I've seen a lot on here about the KK location. Specifically, people are concerned about safety, and maybe park demographics. I hope I can shed some light as a longtime resident and park regular.

Regarding the relative safety of the area around the park: it's pretty safe, but it isn't cute. It's an older park of town that hasn't seen much love in recent decades. It's also right by the airport and very close to University of Louisville, so you have a diverse mix of neighbors. It is definitely not a white picket fence kind of area. That said, if you're brave enough to drive to the Cincinnati Zoo, you needn't be nervous about this particular part of Louisville. It's not an area most natives would warn you about.

Demographics of the park should be concerning for anyone who bothered with the place during the Six Flags era. I actively avoided the park from 1999 until last year for this very reason. (Plus the rides were always closed.) Six Flags catered to gangs, hoodrats...anyone who could pick up a Coke can off the street, really. It wasn't a neighborhood issue so much as a complete lack of management and access only limited to those who couldn't afford a bus ride. This seems to be corrected now.

My experiences last year and this year have been much better. Cops and security are quite present in the park, and I've witnessed more than one instance of ride operators having rude teens ejected for bad behavior. There will always be Louisville's unique brand of redneck present in the park, but the higher cost of admission (as cheap as it is, it's more than a Mountain Dew can) has reduced that population considerably. It also helps that they typically can't ride the new coasters.

I'm assuming most of you live near KI. I can't say KK is absolutely worth the drive when you have such a robust park nearby. Lightning Run and Storm Chaser are two of the best coasters I've ridden, and Thunder Run is swell, but T3 is nothing to write home about. If you just need a day in another city, then it's a nice, budget-friendly option. If you're looking for a vacation experience, Orlando is about 12 hours south.

[BeeastFarmer]

What's wrong with ACE?

[Joncars05]

What's wrong with ACE?

Nothing is wrong with ACE. There are a very few ACE members that are opinionated but that is like any other coaster club out there.

Back to topic here KK had 6 billboards advertising the 29.95 two day deal, located on 465 from the airport moving through south side 465 all the way up to 69. KK has the same billboard on 67 and 74 as well. They are making some agressive moves advertising wise we will see if it pays off for them this summer.

[TheBEASTunchained]

Storm Chased the day away today. Wonderful time. Trip report coming soon!