Cedar Fair Is Not Disney--Motley Fool

[The Interpreter]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/01/03/cedar-fair-is-not-disney.aspx

[PREMiERdrum]

SIX's family-focused vision didn't bankrupt them, their massive debtload did. It's a silly comparison.

I appreciated the lookback at Cedar Points illfated "Fast Lane" queue system. Goodness, what a cluster that Summer way!

[CoastersRZ]

That article is nice. However, the article fails to mention FastLane that was introduced at Kings Island this past season. Or the Fright Lane pass which was used at parks besides just Kings Island. Those passes are not cheap and are sure to add to the company`s in park spending among guests.

I`m still waiting to see if we will eventually see more hotels/out of park revenue opportunities pop up. Cedar Fair runs quite a few hotels, and it seems that some of their properties would benefit from the added revenue of an on property hotel.

I also wonder what Ouimet`s opinion of winter events at the parks are. With the success that they have had with the fall events, it seems only natural to look at winter events as a way to generate some additional revenue. Clearly, there is some money to be made from those events. On a recent visit to Clifton Mill, I was astonished at the amount of people that showed up for the event. All paying $10 to get in. I truly enjoyed Winterfest in 2005, although I felt it was over priced back then. With no competition from The Beach`s winter event anymore (it was discontinued this year), it would be nice to see a winter event eventually make its way back to KI. And they are focused on families, which just happen to be the group that Ouimet is trying to attract to the parks.

[The Interpreter]

Carowinds did not have substantial local competition, and yet so few people attended its 2005 Winterfest that the Charlotte Observer ran the headline, Walking In An Empty Wonderland.

[PREMiERdrum]

Carowinds did not have substantial local competition, and yet so few people attended its 2005 Winterfest that the Charlotte Observer ran the headline, Walking In An Empty Wonderland.

I find it interesting that zoos (Columbus and Cincy, namely) have found such success with their wintertime events while Paramount's efforts floundered. In Columbus, the zoo typically sees its highest daily attendance records broken not during mid summer or even Ohio's pleasant fall, but during the cold, December "Wildlights" dates. Sure, the zoo's smaller infastructure might make it easier for them in terms of ROI, but the park's dramatically larger scope and attractions roster, one would think, would lead to a very successful event.

[CoastersRZ]

Precisely my point. I think that part of the problem with the 2005 version at KI and Carowinds, when compared to the Zoo`s pricing, is they simply wanted way too much, especially for a "first run" season. Kings Island was charging $25 for admission, about $20 for pass holders, and they were charging regular price for parking (and passes did NOT get free parking even with a parking pass). That is a bit steep compared to the zoo that charges around $14 for admission. Had they had cheaper admission that first year, they likely would have built a large fan base and then could have made more money off of more bodies, as opposed to trying to get a higher margin off of each person through the gate.

[The Interpreter]

I wouldn't necessarily assume that CBS's goal was a financially successful Winterfest. Rather, it was a dressup effort during a sale, showing potential to possible buyers, not unlike a fresh cost of paint and new drapes in the house put up for sale.

[CoastersRZ]

Right. I know that CBS had no intentions to make the event financially viable. In fact, I think they tried to recoup some of the capital costs for Winterfest with the price of admission that first season, instead of building a long term sucessful event. I think if done right, that a winter event at Kings Island and other parks could be a financial success for the company. I mean, the original Winterfest did run from 1982 through 1992.

[The Interpreter]

And, if KECO had continued to run Kings Island, would probably have continued til Sunday, and then re-opened this December. Oh what a different place the park would be--no Paramount, no CBS, no Cedar Fair. None of us will ever know what would have been. Then again, after 1992, Mr. Lindner was throwing KECO out. There may not even BE a Kings Island by now.

What is, is.

[CoastersRZ]

Yes, it is sure the park would be a different place today. I still find it interesting that Cedar Fair almost purchased Kings Island in 2000. How different the park would have been had that happened.

Hopefully, one day a winter themed event will return to Kings Island. (I can hope anyway). I have fond childhood memories of the original Winterfest. And besides, Busch Gardens and Hershey each do Christmas events.

We have strayed pretty far from the subject at hand, discussing Ouimet and the article. Of which I take some responsibility for the tangent subject.

[Dalefan]

That article is nice. However, the article fails to mention FastLane that was introduced at Kings Island this past season. Or the Fright Lane pass which was used at parks besides just Kings Island. Those passes are not cheap and are sure to add to the company`s in park spending among guests.

I`m still waiting to see if we will eventually see more hotels/out of park revenue opportunities pop up. Cedar Fair runs quite a few hotels, and it seems that some of their properties would benefit from the added revenue of an on property hotel.

I also wonder what Ouimet`s opinion of winter events at the parks are. With the success that they have had with the fall events, it seems only natural to look at winter events as a way to generate some additional revenue. Clearly, there is some money to be made from those events. On a recent visit to Clifton Mill, I was astonished at the amount of people that showed up for the event. All paying $10 to get in. I truly enjoyed Winterfest in 2005, although I felt it was over priced back then. With no competition from The Beach`s winter event anymore (it was discontinued this year), it would be nice to see a winter event eventually make its way back to KI. And they are focused on families, which just happen to be the group that Ouimet is trying to attract to the parks.

I asked the park about doing another Winterfest. Was told that they won't do it due to loosing too much money.

[Dalefan]

Carowinds did not have substantial local competition, and yet so few people attended its 2005 Winterfest that the Charlotte Observer ran the headline, Walking In An Empty Wonderland.

I find it interesting that zoos (Columbus and Cincy, namely) have found such success with their wintertime events while Paramount's efforts floundered. In Columbus, the zoo typically sees its highest daily attendance records broken not during mid summer or even Ohio's pleasant fall, but during the cold, December "Wildlights" dates. Sure, the zoo's smaller infastructure might make it easier for them in terms of ROI, but the park's dramatically larger scope and attractions roster, one would think, would lead to a very successful event.

On some nights, The Columbus Zoo's Wildlights is way too busy.

[bkroz]

Hopefully, one day a winter themed event will return to Kings Island. (I can hope anyway). I have fond childhood memories of the original Winterfest. And besides, Busch Gardens and Hershey each do Christmas events.

I don't think it will happen. Busch Gardens and Dollywood and Hershey are three prime examples of parks that have much to offer besides rides. Even during their summer, daytime operation, especially the first two cater to families and even adults traveling alone who simply want to take in the park's ambiance, shows, restaurants, scenery, gardens, etc. Go to Kings Dominion one day and Busch Gardens the next. The two are maybe 75 minutes apart, but the clientele are day and night. It's not just location (though that does have to do with it). Busch Gardens is a theme park. Kings Dominion is a ride park.

In the 1980's, Kings Island was a theme park, with wonderful entertainment, noteworthy food, vendors, craftsmen, culture, beauty, and scenery that was worth taking in. That made the transition to a "Christmas park" very natural and tasteful. For better or worse, it is a ride park today. Its clientele are thrill seekers, and families who come to ride rides.

What is Busch Gardens' Christmas Town? Busch Gardens without the rides. Still leaves plenty to do and plenty to see. Expertly cultivated gardens, decorated European villages, vendors, train rides, completely new and outstanding shows...

What would Kings Island's Winterfest be? Kings Island without the rides. Many season pass holders and locals would say, "Huh? Then what's the point?" To enjoy a lukewarm burger patty? To see the dying, sparse Christmas lights of Starlight Spectacular? To watch the shows, "90's Christmas!" "Rockin' to the 1980's Yuletide!" "Good Ole Country Christmas!" and "Hippie Holiday: The 1960s with Snoopy and Friends!"? Kings Island caters to a different crowd.

And I think it's on-topic enough: Cedar Fair is not Disney, and they know it. That's why I'd never expect Winterfest again.

[CoastersRZ]

Did you go to the Winterfest in 2005? Santa`s Workshop was one of the best live shows that I`ve seen at Kings Island in a while. The focus was on entertainment and not rides. In fact, only the train, the dark ride and about two other kiddie rides were even open for Winterfest. It was all about live shows and entertainment.

And isn`t the point of Winterfest to attract families and not necessarily the thrill seekers or those who come to ride the rides. What I`m saying is that a winter event is not that far off from the clientele that Ouimet wants to attract to the park. I`m not saying the even is going to return, just that the target market aligns with who Ouiment wants to dry and draw to the park, based on that article.

[Outdoor Man]

A few thoughts. I think my tickets to Winterfest 2005 were $29.99.

Wasn't Santa's workshop the same show that they had back in the 90's?

I would be willing to bet that Winterfest is at least considered. It may have lost money, but the park was willing to attempt it again in 2006. I had my $14.99 tickets bought back in June of that year.

[rotag]

Hopefully, one day a winter themed event will return to Kings Island. (I can hope anyway). I have fond childhood memories of the original Winterfest. And besides, Busch Gardens and Hershey each do Christmas events.

I don't think it will happen. Busch Gardens and Dollywood and Hershey are three prime examples of parks that have much to offer besides rides. Even during their summer, daytime operation, especially the first two cater to families and even adults traveling alone who simply want to take in the park's ambiance, shows, restaurants, scenery, gardens, etc. Go to Kings Dominion one day and Busch Gardens the next. The two are maybe 75 minutes apart, but the clientele are day and night. It's not just location (though that does have to do with it). Busch Gardens is a theme park. Kings Dominion is a ride park.

In the 1980's, Kings Island was a theme park, with wonderful entertainment, noteworthy food, vendors, craftsmen, culture, beauty, and scenery that was worth taking in. That made the transition to a "Christmas park" very natural and tasteful. For better or worse, it is a ride park today. Its clientele are thrill seekers, and families who come to ride rides.

What is Busch Gardens' Christmas Town? Busch Gardens without the rides. Still leaves plenty to do and plenty to see. Expertly cultivated gardens, decorated European villages, vendors, train rides, completely new and outstanding shows...

What would Kings Island's Winterfest be? Kings Island without the rides. Many season pass holders and locals would say, "Huh? Then what's the point?" To enjoy a lukewarm burger patty? To see the dying, sparse Christmas lights of Starlight Spectacular? To watch the shows, "90's Christmas!" "Rockin' to the 1980's Yuletide!" "Good Ole Country Christmas!" and "Hippie Holiday: The 1960s with Snoopy and Friends!"? Kings Island caters to a different crowd.

And I think it's on-topic enough: Cedar Fair is not Disney, and they know it. That's why I'd never expect Winterfest again.

I couldn't agree with you more that KI has lost it's luster as a "THEME" park, & fell to the ranks of an "AMUSEMENT" park. That is the one thing i try to stress when it comes to my fondness of KI's past (mostly pre-paramount). Hopefully Mr. Oumet can bring back (at least in theory) the way KI used to be & still be relevant to today's world & technological advancements.

[kingsrattler]

You make it sound like an amusement park is just a second rate theme park, when this is not true. They are just two different types of parks, not to be compared. Disney world is a theme park. They have many parks that focus one facet or denominator. Islands of Adventure is an amusement park that contains many little theme parks within it. Paramount's Kings Island was a theme park, with the theme being "riding the movies". Kings Island, before and after Paramount, is an amusement park. A park that has some thematics, and a theme park are not the same thing

[benred23]

On the Subject of Winterfest. We all know WF 2005 was basically a flop for the park. What Im curious about though is was Winterfest a Moneymaker when it was ran back in the 80s and 90s? If Im not mistaken, wasn't it a yearly attraction at the park for many years? why did it flop so bad when Paramount tried it?

[CoastersRZ]

It was a big success from everything I`ve heard. The original Winterfest ran from 1982 (predating the Cincinnati Zoo`s Festival of Lights by one year) through the 1992 season. It was discontinued because Paramount wanted to extend the season through October, and thus would not have proper time to set up for Winterfest. Part of the reason it flopped so bad in 2005, as I have mentioned before, is they way over charged for the event. It was a quality event, just not worth the price. As Interpreter has stated, the prime objective of the 2005 Winterfest was to add another selling point to the park to any prospective buyers.

[bkroz]

Did you go to the Winterfest in 2005? Santa`s Workshop was one of the best live shows that I`ve seen at Kings Island in a while. The focus was on entertainment and not rides. In fact, only the train, the dark ride and about two other kiddie rides were even open for Winterfest. It was all about live shows and entertainment.

Yes... And it happened once in the 2000's, was lightly attended, and never happened again. I believe it's because Kings Island is viewed as (and operated as) primarily a ride park, and that the idea of visiting a "Kings Island without the rides" is perplexing to many people. I know that the show was fantastic, but it doesn't change my point: that people didn't come (and wouldn't come next year) because when people think Kings Island, most don't think about the shows or food or landscaping first. Most think about the rides. That's not right or wrong, it's just the kind of park Kings Island of the 2000's is.

In that way, the idea of an "entertainment based Christmas event" is far less marketable to Kings Island's typical visitors than the same idea at Busch Gardens, where the closing of their "big" rides (three coasters) doesn't have much of an impact on the park's lineup. There' the focus is on entertainment, dining, landscaping, scenery, animals, and music all year round.

[rotag]

You make it sound like an amusement park is just a second rate theme park, when this is not true. They are just two different types of parks, not to be compared. Disney world is a theme park. They have many parks that focus one facet or denominator. Islands of Adventure is an amusement park that contains many little theme parks within it. Paramount's Kings Island was a theme park, with the theme being "riding the movies". Kings Island, before and after Paramount, is an amusement park. A park that has some thematics, and a theme park are not the same thing

well, would you rather ride something that has great quality in scenery that goes with a set theme to make you feel like you are in a place separated from the world (EX: riding "Der Spinning Kegger's" which was themed with barrels & you spun around in a section of Oktoberfest that had a German based area; or would you rather ride a giant 400+foot ride that lasts about 16seconds in essentially a parking lot next to some carnival rides that dont fit the theme what-so-ever)?

[bkroz]

Besides that, Disney World isn't a theme park. It's a resort with four theme parks within it. Islands of Adventure is definitely a theme park (just one, though). Universal Studios Florida is a theme park, too. In my opinion, an amusement park is something like Cedar Point (sans Frontier Trail) where rides without a storyline or setting are placed along a midway (see, Raptor. What relates it to a bird of prey? Why is the raptor in question sitting next to a "blue streak" or across from a "wicked twister?"). Indiana Beach is an amusement park. Disney California Adventure's Paradise Pier was a replica of an amusement park until very recently.

The idea being that, more and more, people are associating Kings Island with being an amusement park, too. What signage is left to differentiate Rivertown from Coney Mall? Action Zone from Oktoberfest? They're not differentiated on the map... How do we know Oktoberfest even exists anymore when the area's twos rides are "adventure" themed and "Viking" themed, and its dining establishment offers American and Asian food with a "country" show? Diamondback is a fine ride, but it incites the same question that Raptor does. What relates it to a snake? Is it different than the story told on, say, Son of Beast (the child of the park's original Beast is captured and placed in a high-tech security area in the futuristic Action Zone, guests enter an outpost and board Perimeter Surveillance Vehicles to monitor the creature's behavior amid red warning lights and government alerts)?

There's nothing wrong with being an amusement park or a theme park. And there's nothing wrong with being a mix of the two (which, I would offer, Kings Island is). Sometimes it creates interesting clashes and combinations.

And kingsrattler, I think you'd be hard pressed to convince people who saw the original International Street (with International food), Adventure Village, the original Oktobestfest, the original Coney Mall and the original Rivertown that Kings Island was an amusement park before Paramount. Theme doesn't have to be an overriding theme that covers the whole park (like "riding the movies"). It's about immersive enviornments, storylines, rides that engage visitors visually, and appropriate choices in food and shopping for those areas (ex. a woodcarver in Rivertown instead of a basketball game). That's my opinion.

[TTD-120-420]

The headline to this is like saying "Outback Steakhouse is not Burger King." Obviously.

[bkroz]

Or like "Burger King is not Outback Steakhouse," unless you really, really, really like Burger King!

[CedarPointer]

To watch the shows, "90's Christmas!" "Rockin' to the 1980's Yuletide!" "Good Ole Country Christmas!" and "Hippie Holiday: The 1960s with Snoopy and Friends!"?

You know, if you work for CF, you probably shouldn't be disclosing future show names.

[westcoaster]

oh well Kings Island is a hybrid park, part theme part amusement and a water park...Lets not forget a top 10 in the seasonal parks!!!

Its a flagship for Cedar Fair...I think the new boss will bring back some family attractions!

[74Gibson]

Kings Island is a place I like to go and ride rides, enjoy the scenery/ ambiance and hangout with friends and family.

[Outdoor Man]

Besides that, Disney World isn't a theme park. It's a resort with four theme parks within it. Islands of Adventure is definitely a theme park (just one, though). Universal Studios Florida is a theme park, too. In my opinion, an amusement park is something like Cedar Point (sans Frontier Trail) where rides without a storyline or setting are placed along a midway (see, Raptor. What relates it to a bird of prey? Why is the raptor in question sitting next to a "blue streak" or across from a "wicked twister?"). Indiana Beach is an amusement park. Disney California Adventure's Paradise Pier was a replica of an amusement park until very recently.

The idea being that, more and more, people are associating Kings Island with being an amusement park, too. What signage is left to differentiate Rivertown from Coney Mall? Action Zone from Oktoberfest? They're not differentiated on the map... How do we know Oktoberfest even exists anymore when the area's twos rides are "adventure" themed and "Viking" themed, and its dining establishment offers American and Asian food with a "country" show? Diamondback is a fine ride, but it incites the same question that Raptor does. What relates it to a snake? Is it different than the story told on, say, Son of Beast (the child of the park's original Beast is captured and placed in a high-tech security area in the futuristic Action Zone, guests enter an outpost and board Perimeter Surveillance Vehicles to monitor the creature's behavior amid red warning lights and government alerts)?

There's nothing wrong with being an amusement park or a theme park. And there's nothing wrong with being a mix of the two (which, I would offer, Kings Island is). Sometimes it creates interesting clashes and combinations.

And kingsrattler, I think you'd be hard pressed to convince people who saw the original International Street (with International food), Adventure Village, the original Oktobestfest, the original Coney Mall and the original Rivertown that Kings Island was an amusement park before Paramount. Theme doesn't have to be an overriding theme that covers the whole park (like "riding the movies"). It's about immersive enviornments, storylines, rides that engage visitors visually, and appropriate choices in food and shopping for those areas (ex. a woodcarver in Rivertown instead of a basketball game). That's my opinion.

i think you nailed most of it on the head. especially that part of "immersive environments, storylines, etc.." I remember on International street the had a glass blower in one of the shops. Are they still in there? And while we're at it- WHY do they serve American and Asian food in a German themed Festhaus... with Country Music anyway.

I think something that could be looked toward would be a re-recognition of some of the themed areas. And though KI is a "ride" park (I agree with that)- if they did bring WinterFest back I don't think it would confuse anyway. When we went back in 2005, even though it was neck deep in the Paramount era no one was under the impression that they were going to ride Vortex in 20 degree weather. I think they could bring it back but they would need to do something radically different.

I read an interview where the CEO said he liked "character" interaction with guests. I hope he's speaking of more than just peanuts characters. Hanna Barbera worked so well because there were scores of characters from about a dozen independent cartoons. Peanuts is just 1.... and they're kinda yesterday.

either way, I'm looking forward to what he'll bring to the table. It will be night and day difference from Kinzel- which it should. he's a new leader brought in because he's different. In her mid-30's, my wife has already made me a lone coaster rider, and soon I'll need to pass myself (Vortex already makes me dizzy and my back can only take so much of the others). Look at the thrill ride lines, they're 75%+ teens and 20's. Those of us largely paying the bills are stuck in kidland, and by the time we break out- we're too old to enjoy the others.

[Dalefan]

Disney just charges more per ticket then a normal gold pass. And i've heard that a Disney season pass is 5 times more then the platinum pass.

[bkroz]

A ticket to Disneyland is $80 (not more than a Gold Pass, which is $84.99). A six day ticket to Disneyland and Disney California Adventure (which is NOT an unusual choice) is $236.00, or $39.33 per day. Keep in mind that face value for a one-day Kings Island ticket is $52.99 (not too much less than Disneyland's $80.00) and does not include use of a virtual queuing system, nor any rides that are in any way remotely comparable to The Haunted Mansion or Indiana Jones Adventure. At least, not anymore.

An annual pass to Disneyland is $379.00 and good for 315 days of admission, or about $1.20 per eligible day. (If it cost five times what a Platinum Pass costs, it would be $825.00). A Platinum Pass is $165.00, and with Cedar Point being open 170 days last year, the Platinum Pass has a value of 97 cents per eligible day.

A Disneyland Annual Pass provides 10% off all dining and merchandise purchases in the park and discounts at Disneyland and area hotels. A Platinum Pass includes different benefits at each park, but usually centers around a free large pizza when you buy three large pizzas and a buffet that includes a souvenir Snoopy sipper cup.

Southern California residents can also purchase a low-level Disneyland Pass good for (coincidentally) 170 days of admission that costs $199.00 - it's only good for the off-season, but that's the only time Southern California residents would want to go, anyway. It, too, provides a flat 10% discount and discounted hotel rates.

Did you know that the number one reason people don't take Disney vacations is because they assume they can't afford Disney vacations without bothering to research? The More You Know!

GYK, who is taking a reprieve from the .97 cents per day and opting for that $1.20 a day in 2012.