Geauga Lake Thoughts

[Creed Bratton]

I searched the boards for this, so if it does overlap I'm sorry, what I had found was more of pointed G.L discussion.

What are your thoughts on Geauga Lake & Wild Water Kingdom?

I've noticed a few groups popping up on Facebook about "remember when", "bring back Geauga Lake," etc. All seem to go to bashing of Cedar Fair and Six for killing their park.

Do you see any potential for GL or WWK at any point?

I saw a poster comment with a simple question after discussion of how Cedar Fair has ruined the property and the park. There was more discussion of Cedar Fair didn't do anything but an upgrade to the waterpark for Kings Island's 40th, and no one could imagine what would have been done for G.L's 125th. Conversation turned to WWK was planned to have more but it was scaled back and how a few of them would never go to WWK after CF and Six ruined the park. The woman then asked, "Why give them the business?"

Here is my reply to that question:

In no way am I trying to be rude or belittle you. Why give them the
business? Cedar Fair is under new direction, under a very personable
guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Ouimet and he is totally
different from what I remember Kinzel as. Why give them the business?
When you have a fan base that takes pride in what they have (even though
WWK may be very little now), a fan base that invests in the park
(purchasing food, beverages, souvenirs, etc.) and a fan base that visits
often, it shows the "man" that the park may be worth investing in.

Imagine having a season where a majority of the dates, there are extended waits
for the slides at WWK, where the wave pool is pretty full, there aren't
any open lounge chairs, etc. To me, that'd show that WWK is worth
investing in, that there is a need for expansion to relieve the waits.

Though the past few years may have stunk, I think there should be a shift on
focus from the bad to the good. I may be wrong, I haven't been to GL or
WWK in recent years, but there has to be some good there. There has to
be a way to shift focus from the bad to the good.

--

To me it seems that many have given up on WWK as they feel that CF gave up on their park. While I don't know the exact details of Geauga Lake not being profitable, I kind of have a feeling that scaling to a water park only was a necessary move. What would happen if WWK were to have extended waits for the slides, wave pool almost to capacity, lack of open lounge chairs, etc.? What if this were to happen for multiple seasons?

I know I've asked a lot of questions....looking forward to discussion!

[TTD-120-420]

I've heard a lot of people say the park was doomed when SeaWorld left. I've heard people say the Six Flags trying to directly compete with Cedar Point and adding too many rides in a short period of time is what doomed the park. We've all heard that Cedar Fair bought it for the sole purpose of closing it and sending the rides to other parks. I'm sure only a select group really know.

I tend to think it was Six Flags' rapid expansion of the park that started the end. The park couldn't support the extra rides all at once, and all they did was increase the operating costs. The park relied on its charm. Family picnics, local business' outings, and small families is what made Geauga Lake work. When Six Flags tried to commercialize it and make it Cedar Point Over Cleveland (made that up) it just couldn't sustain a worthwhile profit.

I really have no clue, it is just my opinion.

I do, however, think you are insane if you think Cedar Fair bought it just to close it.

[WOF Guy]

A lot of mistakes were made, but I think combining the two parks was the biggest one. It made sense for one operator to own both properties and consolidate overhead. It didn't make sense to try and have one undervalued ticket for both parks.

Secondly I think CF should have remodeled the former waterpark and expanded it into the area occupied by Steel Venom, Head Spin, X-Flight etc. Then they could have sold off the Seaworld side of the lake (or better yet operate a seperate zoo).

As for the future, I'd like to see an FEC built adjacent to WWK. It would be something to extend length-of-stay and increase revenue. If Merlin bought the property they could put a Sea Life Aquarium in the former Shark Encounter facility. One of the other vacant buildings could be used for a Legoland Discovery Center.

[TheCrypt]

I could see it coming back. Not now, not in 5 years from now, but the possibility is there for the future. After all, Cedar Fair still owns the land. It's just a matter of cleaning up the land and opening a select few family attractions. I think the park could work very well if it were comprised similarly to Coney Island.

The way I see it, it has a shot. More of a shot than Kentucky Kingdom, anyways.

[TTD-120-420]

I would say there is a 0% chance of it coming back. You are correct, Cedar Fair does own the land still, but they don't want it.

Mr. Ouimet himself has even said he believes that the United States can't support another amusement park. (Cannot find the quote, I'm sure someone else knows where it is)

[BB1]

On the other hand as well as major revamps, re-designs, a re-everthing must be taken, and with the budget that CF usually has it cannot do such in 2013. Like others have said before, they plan far ahead into the future, so there is no doubt in my mind something may come to be by CF, a possible change in owners? Yes it very well could be. A change in the whole area? Yes it could be, its like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-pop, the world may never know, untill someday.

[Browntggrr]

Mr. Ouimet himself has even said he believes that the United States can't support another amusement park. (Cannot find the quote, I'm sure someone else knows where it is)

It will be interesting to see how KK pans out.

[TTD-120-420]

I am also interested in seeing how KK goes. I just have a hard time believing they can draw people in if it ever opens.

[westcoaster]

Does everyone believe that Geuga lake will survive as a water park? Plus with what about an hour drive from Cleveland to Sandusky you can see the conspiracy theories on why Geuga lake was closed as a park.

[bkroz]

My view as a local to Geauga Lake:

Problem one - Combining Six Flags Ohio and SeaWorld Ohio created - as Six Flags proudly trumpeted - three parks in one: a thrill park, an animal park, and a water park. That is not only huge in terms of theoretical scope, but in terms of size. Two stand-alone theme parks were literally connected together. Two massive parking lots with guests finding out that they'd ended their day near the wrong one. Every year, the park moved and toyed with floating boardwalks, pathways, and ferries to move people between the two separate sides that hadn't been constructed with idea that they'd ever merge. A Google search says that Six Flags Ohio was 520 acres, and SeaWorld was 230. Their merger created a park more than twice as large, land-wise, as Kings Island. It was simply too big.

Problem two - Six Flags infused massive amounts of money into the park as Six Flags Ohio during the early years as a clear attempt to compete with Cedar Point. The problems with that theory are plentiful, least of which being that the park didn't have the notoriety or fame that Cedar Point has. Cedar Point arose into pop culture gradually and with record-after-record of quality roller coasters. "Plopping" roller coasters into what had been a local park couldn't have the same effect. Also remember that Six Flags had to bring in their own arsenal of animals to repopulate the "animal park" - everything from orcas to dolphins to fish to sharks to penguins to turtles that SeaWorld had, of course, taken with them when they left. Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no guests even saw them.

Problem three - The original Geauga Lake and SeaWorld, separately, were local family parks. By making a 700-acre mega-park, Six Flags alienated the clientele that had appreciated both Geauga Lake and SeaWorld for their simplicity. It shouldn't be a surprise that SeaWorld Ohio operated differently from SeaWorld Orlando. No one was under the impression that SeaWorld Ohio was a destination park. It was a local attraction with a few tendrils out into the region. The attempt to market the park as a national destination and a flagship of Six Flags' arsenal hurt long-time visitors.

Problem four - The people who DID come to Six Flags Worlds of Adventure for that thrilling, mile-a-minute mega-park experience were greeted by the Six Flags norm of the time (unhelpful and inattentive employees, little interest in cleanliness, questionable operations, "parking lot coasters," rampant greed in food pricing but non-existant ticket-pricing integrity) AND the perils of a family-park turned mega-park (not enough food service, small bathrooms that couldn't keep up with demand, odd layout from organic growth, two parking lots and no simple way to cross the 700 acre facility).

Problem five - Despite marketing tying the parks to Cleveland, the park was located about 45 minutes southeast of Cleveland, with much of that drive through rural areas and small towns whose infrastructure would not allow for the massive crowds Six Flags sought. The park's rural location also meant that there were virtually no hotels anywhere near it - because, why would someone need a hotel room to visit little Geauga Lake, given that its primary visitors were locals? Still today the area has hastily-constructed roads where two-lane paths suddenly have three left-turn lanes with a rusted sign pointing to "Geauga Lake" in Cedar Fair font.

I don't think anyone would argue that Cedar Point handled the closing of Geauga Lake particularly well and you can, of course, see why locals were ENRAGED by that, but angry even earlier as they saw conditions deteriorate and rides disappear one by one. I don't think Cedar Fair purchased Geauga Lake with the intention of closing it. It's clear, though, that Cedar Point's intention was to downsize the park, perhaps to the size of Michigan's Adventure or Valleyfair, where it would once against settle into the family niche - basically, to remove the four huge coasters Six Flags had added, and replace the animal park with a water park. Not 100% necessarily to "erase Cedar Point competition," but also because that's where the park belonged, and what its infrastructure allowed for.

Somewhere along the line, that failed and the result is what we have today - a water park. To my understanding, water parks have a surprisingly high profit margin, and whether we as park-fans like it or not, WildWater Kingdom DOES cater to a family market, with a lot of locals getting season passes for their whole family. It's a shame, and a shock, and a tragic loss for the area, but if you've seen the state of the "rides" side of the park, you recognize that it won't be back. And WildWater Kingdom's "phase II" never happened, so either 1) the park is doing just fine as is, or 2) its fate is undecided, too. EDIT: And Google Map "WildWater Kingdom," then move over to the south side of the lake - everything is gone. Everything. Food stands, gates, fountains, bathrooms, etc. are all square piles of rubble.

[shark6495]

I've heard a lot of people say the park was doomed when SeaWorld left. I've heard people say the Six Flags trying to directly compete with Cedar Point and adding too many rides in a short period of time is what doomed the park. We've all heard that Cedar Fair bought it for the sole purpose of closing it and sending the rides to other parks. I'm sure only a select group really know.

I tend to think it was Six Flags' rapid expansion of the park that started the end. The park couldn't support the extra rides all at once, and all they did was increase the operating costs. The park relied on its charm. Family picnics, local business' outings, and small families is what made Geauga Lake work. When Six Flags tried to commercialize it and make it Cedar Point Over Cleveland (made that up) it just couldn't sustain a worthwhile profit.

I really have no clue, it is just my opinion.

I do, however, think you are insane if you think Cedar Fair bought it just to close it.

I wouldnt say people are crazy for thinking CF bought it to end competition, because there is a reason why a company would buy a park. Did they see an opportunity to purchase a park with rides and move those rides? Yes probably. Was the intent to close it completely? I wouldnt count that out as it might have been in been part of the plans, becase as you said no one will really know, because those who do know wont speak.

I could see it coming back. Not now, not in 5 years from now, but the possibility is there for the future. After all, Cedar Fair still owns the land. It's just a matter of cleaning up the land and opening a select few family attractions. I think the park could work very well if it were comprised similarly to Coney Island.

The way I see it, it has a shot. More of a shot than Kentucky Kingdom, anyways.

I think you may be right, but I do not see it coming back for years. 15 or more. If the land is sold to a person who wants to invest millions of millions of dollars to build a local park. The place is a mess on the park side. I do not mean that in a disrespectful way.

My view as a local to Geauga Lake:

Problem one - Combining Six Flags Ohio and SeaWorld Ohio created - as Six Flags proudly trumpeted - three parks in one: a thrill park, an animal park, and a water park. That is not only huge in terms of theoretical scope, but in terms of size. Two stand-alone theme parks were literally connected together. Two massive parking lots with guests finding out that they'd ended their day near the wrong one. Every year, the park moved and toyed with floating boardwalks, pathways, and ferries to move people between the two separate sides that hadn't been constructed with idea that they'd ever merge. A Google search says that Six Flags Ohio was 520 acres, and SeaWorld was 230. Their merger created a park more than twice as large, land-wise, as Kings Island. It was simply too big.

Problem two - Six Flags infused massive amounts of money into the park as Six Flags Ohio during the early years as a clear attempt to compete with Cedar Point. The problems with that theory are plentiful, least of which being that the park didn't have the notoriety or fame that Cedar Point has. Cedar Point arose into pop culture gradually and with record-after-record of quality roller coasters. "Plopping" roller coasters into what had been a local park couldn't have the same effect. Also remember that Six Flags had to bring in their own arsenal of animals to repopulate the "animal park" - everything from orcas to dolphins to fish to sharks to penguins to turtles that SeaWorld had, of course, taken with them when they left. Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no guests even saw them.

Problem three - The original Geauga Lake and SeaWorld, separately, were local family parks. By making a 700-acre mega-park, Six Flags alienated the clientele that had appreciated both Geauga Lake and SeaWorld for their simplicity. It shouldn't be a surprise that SeaWorld Ohio operated differently from SeaWorld Orlando. No one was under the impression that SeaWorld Ohio was a destination park. It was a local attraction with a few tendrils out into the region. The attempt to market the park as a national destination and a flagship of Six Flags' arsenal hurt long-time visitors.

Problem four - The people who DID come to Six Flags Worlds of Adventure for that thrilling, mile-a-minute mega-park experience were greeted by the Six Flags norm of the time (unhelpful and inattentive employees, little interest in cleanliness, questionable operations, "parking lot coasters," rampant greed in food pricing but non-existant ticket-pricing integrity) AND the perils of a family-park turned mega-park (not enough food service, small bathrooms that couldn't keep up with demand, odd layout from organic growth, two parking lots and no simple way to cross the 700 acre facility).

Problem five - Despite marketing tying the parks to Cleveland, the park was located about 45 minutes southeast of Cleveland, with much of that drive through rural areas and small towns whose infrastructure would not allow for the massive crowds Six Flags sought. The park's rural location also meant that there were virtually no hotels anywhere near it - because, why would someone need a hotel room to visit little Geauga Lake, given that its primary visitors were locals? Still today the area has hastily-constructed roads where two-lane paths suddenly have three left-turn lanes with a rusted sign pointing to "Geauga Lake" in Cedar Fair font.

I don't think anyone would argue that Cedar Point handled the closing of Geauga Lake particularly well and you can, of course, see why locals were ENRAGED by that, but angry even earlier as they saw conditions deteriorate and rides disappear one by one. I don't think Cedar Fair purchased Geauga Lake with the intention of closing it. It's clear, though, that Cedar Point's intention was to downsize the park, perhaps to the size of Michigan's Adventure or Valleyfair, where it would once against settle into the family niche - basically, to remove the four huge coasters Six Flags had added, and replace the animal park with a water park. Not 100% necessarily to "erase Cedar Point competition," but also because that's where the park belonged, and what its infrastructure allowed for.

Somewhere along the line, that failed and the result is what we have today - a water park. To my understanding, water parks have a surprisingly high profit margin, and whether we as park-fans like it or not, WildWater Kingdom DOES cater to a family market, with a lot of locals getting season passes for their whole family. It's a shame, and a shock, and a tragic loss for the area, but if you've seen the state of the "rides" side of the park, you recognize that it won't be back. And WildWater Kingdom's "phase II" never happened, so either 1) the park is doing just fine as is, or 2) its fate is undecided, too. EDIT: And Google Map "WildWater Kingdom," then move over to the south side of the lake - everything is gone. Everything. Food stands, gates, fountains, bathrooms, etc. are all square piles of rubble.

I honestly think that your point 5 was, IMHO, the most important one. Having lived in Kent, for a year, I made a few trips to the Geauga Lake area to just look at the old grounds many times. The drive from Kent to GL was a longer drive due to the roads. I felt like the trip to Cleveland was quicker than going to GL. The roads to that area are not easy to navigate on a busy day.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/matthott/with/4563639687/#photo_4563639687

Back in 2010, I took my point and click camera with me and took some quick photos from around the park. The pictures are taken as I drove around that 700 acre park. I didnt break any laws as all of the pics are taken from outside of the gate or on the road.

[faeriewench]

Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those

animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no

guests even saw them.

Shouka was never transferred out till CF took over. SeaWorld stopped transferring killer whales and dolphins to other parks for the winter during the 90s (there used to be pictures online of the killer whales practicing for next season shows during the offseason with lots of snow seen on the ground)

[shark6495]

Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those

animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no

guests even saw them.

Shouka was never transferred out till CF took over. SeaWorld stopped transferring killer whales and dolphins to other parks for the winter during the 90s (there used to be pictures online of the killer whales practicing for next season shows during the offseason with lots of snow on the ground)

My dumb question here... Can killer whales and dolphins survive in the cold lake of Northern Ohio?

[TTD-120-420]

Don't they live in cold water by Alaska and Maine?

[Creed Bratton]

Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those

animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no

guests even saw them.

Shouka was never transferred out till CF took over. SeaWorld stopped transferring killer whales and dolphins to other parks for the winter during the 90s (there used to be pictures online of the killer whales practicing for next season shows during the offseason with lots of snow seen on the ground)

I would like to see these pictures!

[shark6495]

Don't they live in cold water by Alaska and Maine?

yup... great point. Not sure where my brain went on that one...

[faeriewench]

Then, after a notoriously short season, they had to transport those

animals elsewhere or take care of them for the six months a year that no

guests even saw them.

Shouka was never transferred out till CF took over. SeaWorld stopped transferring killer whales and dolphins to other parks for the winter during the 90s (there used to be pictures online of the killer whales practicing for next season shows during the offseason with lots of snow on the ground)

My dumb question here... Can killer whales and dolphins survive in the cold lake of Northern Ohio?

Not likely. They're salt water animals.

chugh43 - I can send a PM.

[Creed Bratton]

That would be great Faeriewench!