Why does nobody like Dick Kinzel?

[Italian Job 2005]

Wow. That's an awesome article.

But Did Six Flags go into debt BECAUSE of the over expansion into massive Worlds of Adventure or was the debt accumulated from elsewhere in the chain at the time?

[The Interpreter]

And the answer is, "Yes."

SFWoA was both symptomatic and causative.

[shark6495]

I sort of wonder how things would have changed for Geuga Lake if there was a high or byway that went there. Crowds may have been easier ton control etc.

[The Interpreter]

That wouldn't have helped with the fact the park's infrastructure itself--from midways to restaurants to restrooms--was woefully inadequate for a superpark. Nothing (but rides, rides, rides) was sized appropriately for the crowds that place got its first year, which is why many who went that year and were frustrated went to Cedar Point or elsewhere in future years.

[RailRider]

What a hot button topic this is and should be.

2 main thoughts on Mr. Kinzel.

First the business side. This man was at the helm of the RollerCoast during the coaster arms race between Cedar Point and Six Magic Mountain. During this time the only real concern at parks was bigger, faster, and greater # than the competition. Do you think Kinzel would have ever let Six overtake the most coasters record? Family, atmosphere, and satisfaction were not an important part of operations, plus he has a slight ego that he is the best and does it the best. The market changed drastically in the early 2000's as the family became the key market. Kinzel never understood or accepted that and wanted to keep doing things his way. Something about an Old Dog comes to mind.

On a personal note Mr. Kinzel was kind enough to assist me in gathering information for a school project and provided me a tour of Millie during construction on a cold February day. Also he was nice enough to correspond via letters in helping me make some connections with a former coaster company based in Mason. I am thankful for his time and assistance, that is what I would call going above and beyond.

In summary as a share holder Kinzel had overstayed his welcome, was out of touch, and his ego would not allow him to heed critique. He did many great things for Cedar Fair and did many dumb things as well. His reign is now part of the long and storied history of Cedar Point and Cedar Fair.

[bkroz]

Wow. That's an awesome article.

But Did Six Flags go into debt BECAUSE of the over expansion into massive Worlds of Adventure or was the debt accumulated from elsewhere in the chain at the time?

Thanks! (I wrote it. )

Like Terp said (and I'm no where NEAR as versed in this stuff as he is), Worlds of Adventure marked just about everything wrong with Six Flags at the time, which then turned around and informed their operations elsewhere. Rides on top of rides on top of rides. But customer service? Entertainment? Atmosphere? Food? No, no, and no.

[shark6495]

That wouldn't have helped with the fact the park's infrastructure itself--from midways to restaurants to restrooms--was woefully inadequate for a superpark. Nothing (but rides, rides, rides) was sized appropriately for the crowds that place got its first year, which is why many who went that year and were frustrated went to Cedar Point or elsewhere in future years.

I sort of feel this is a chicken/egg situation. If there had existed a highway/byway during the Sea World/Geauga Lake days of the 70s, then possibly the infrastructure would have grown as well and possibly been ready for the influx of the masses..

[The Interpreter]

But...understand the local communities were quite happy with things the way they were. They had successfully fought off over-development for years. Until that fateful day that SIX bought SeaWorld of Ohio. SeaWorld definitely got the better end of that deal.

Both Six Flags and Cedar Fair lost boatloads of money there.

It speaks volumes that the real estate STILL has not sold.

[IBEW_Sparky]

Even though I still Love the knowledge, I ask myself why I continue to torture myself reading articles related to this topic and my forever favorite park.

Sparky, who is intelligent enough to accept the realities of both sides setting GL up to fail, but is still very emotional about said park.

[The Interpreter]

Six Flags, and Gary Story in particular, was so single-mindedly going after Cedar Point, it never occurred to them THEY might fail.

At first, Kings Island was the target, and a newly flagged Kentucky Kingdom was to be the ammunition. Paramount Park's massive Action Zone $35,000,000 response moved them north pronto.

[IBEW_Sparky]

I honestly was not aware of Mr Story going after KI and KK, thank You very much for that tidbit of knowledge. That, is why I returned to this site, despite my serious reservations, because of people like You and the continued knowledge I require in my Life about the topics I am passionate about. Im like Johnny 5, need more input! I just wish DK would have taken the high road when Mr Story came after CP, instead of getting into a "My credit line is bigger than your credit line" contest.

[The Interpreter]

Six Flags Worlds of Adventure ran ridiculous ads featuring local families who claimed they passed Cedar Point to go to Six Flags. After families drawn in by those ads went and found the reality that was SFWoA, many went right back...to Cedar Point.

The final chapter on the last surviving piece of SFWoA has yet to be written. Since I like to ask questions:

* How many stand alone waterparks does FUN now own?

* What new things have been put into Wildwater Kingdom in recent years?

* How profitable is it?

* Is it a distraction from the core business?

* Would it likely have a buyer?

* If not, could the things and management there be better used elsewhere at FUN?

[IBEW_Sparky]

I agree on all points, and/but the difference is, the people of that area know this as well, and are honestly almost expecting it at the end of every season. That, and the fact it will likely be announced even though the writing is clearly on the slide walls with red ink, will be the difference in why people will not want to throw darts at a photo of Mr Ouimet, and did/still do at photos of Kinzel.

[Joshua]

I just posted this in the defunct park thread but it seems like it would be a better fit here.

A very sad but interesting read.

http://www.themeparktourist.com/features/20140824/28153/lost-geauga-lake-how-worlds-largest-six-flags-disappeared

Thanks for the enlightening article, Ride On! I went to both Geauga Lake and Sea World Ohio just a single time in the early 90s.

For whatever reason, I took the time to read some of the comments and a couple of the posts there were pretty enlightening as well, depicting operational woes under Six Flags' management, both within the more recent commenters on the final page of the article.

I find it interesting that the article never touches on the extreme problems Six Flags was having keeping their coasters operational. I went there one time while Six Flags owned it, and it was for a company picnic with the bank I worked for. During the time we were there, not only was the park a dirty mess, but only two of all the coasters were even running (and the ones that weren't running were not weather related). We decided to ride one. The lines were super long because nothing else was running. While we waited, the ride broke down. We waited quite a while, but they got it going again. Finally when we got all buckled in and they had dropped the platform from beneath our feet, it broke down yet again. Having never departed the loading area, we sat, feet dangling and strapped in for approximately 45 minutes before they decided to tell us that they were shutting down the ride for the day.

We exited and watched from outside as we discovered that those who had left the platform before us were still stuck out on the ride. These people had to be carefully released and had to take stairs to get back down. Suddenly, were we were stuck didn't seem so bad. We did not even bother getting in line at the only ride still functioning as the line was now even longer. We spent our remaining time in the water area (I should mention that the Wave was not operating). We stayed the required time for the company mandatory portion and left along with most of my coworkers. On a hot sunny day, the place already looked abandoned which would have never happened back in the Geauga Lake days. We would have stayed until close (easier to find your car that way). Later on, we found out from a friend's husband who had worked & quit there as a ride engineer that they were being forced to fix the rides in unsafe ways just to keep them running. He said that none of the rides were safe & that we were probably safer riding carnival rides at our local fair. After that conversation, we had no desire to ever return. Cedar Fair had their hands full when they took over. Many people do not understand the condition the rides were in. Yes, they relocated several, but taking them apart was the best way to save them and repair them. They definitely made choices that did not sit well with fans, but the more the fans rejected the ideas and thinking Cedar Fair was out to ruin the park, the more people stopped going in order to show disapproval. Therefore, their lack of showing up left Cedar Fair with even less funds to try to fix things. In the end, the people helped to put the final nails in the coffin. I am guilty. We never once returned after our Six Flags experience to a park we used to frequent at least once a year.

I worked there in 2000 and 2001. I was there the first year they became Six Flags. I was a ride operator. None of the operators were trained very well. Just a quick tutorial on how and when to push a button. This was very evident when a female employee fell 20 ft. when the floor of the Batman ride gave way while she was on it. Poor communication between employees. I operated the Skycoaster with minimal training and I was in charge of making sure you didn't die! I was also pulled to be in charge of other rides because there were never enough employees to staff everything.

In spite of all this they were almost finished with their new coasters to show off to the public. The majority of the staff were uneducated teenagers and a lot of them smoked weed or drank regularly. Combine this with lack of training and these were the people in charge of your family and friends. They were also the ones controlling that multi million dollar equipment. I personally broke the Texas Twister as I had no idea how it worked but was forced to run it one day because the employee quit.

I was there when they thought it would be a great idea to combine the parks into one. When we all came back in 2001 to start work for a new year we had high hopes. It was new, different, and exciting. Then the complaints rolled in. The rides became even more understaffed. The crowds were full of less than desirable personalities. Rides broke, employees quit, patrons threatened to sue ALL the time. We knew it was only a matter of time before the park was to burn itself to the ground.

What we didn't know was how fast it would happen. Not only was the community shook but hundreds of jobs were lost (granted most of them teenagers) We knew once Cedar Fair bought the park it was over. The writing was all over the wall.

R.I.P. Geauga Lake/Sea World/Six Flags Ohio/Six Flags World of Adventure/Geauga Lake(again)/Geauga Lake & Wildwater Kingdom/Wildwater Kingdom. That was a mouthful.

[BB1]

Some see his viewpoints on Kings Island as "Cedar Point: South". Placing coasters and thrill rides over theming put a sour taste in enthusiasts. Also, his "parting gift" with the new waterpark too made some re-think what exactly is needed at Kings Island, and what isn't. I'm not saying that I hated the man nor that I liked him because honestly, that's not my place to state. He did wonders with Cedar Point, and made it one of the roller coaster meccas, while he also made strides to save a failing company and get some of the land consolidated for the future of the chain market. He did what he did to ensure that the parks could do what they do best: deliver fun. He left a precedent that Cedar Fair holdings still hold dear; to build the best for the park and make better of their attractions and locations. But was his methods orthodox? Or better yet, was his strides really for the right move? That's really up to you to decide, as it is different from person to person.

[Ride On_17]

Seeing Big Dipper sitting abandoned is the worst part for me. I've been to the Geauga Lake water park and it really hurts looking across to see my first roller coaster--and one of the oldest in existence--sitting to rot. Such a shame.

[Italian Job 2005]

I'm curious. Was the de-theming of Paramount's movie-named rides done under Kinzel?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Interpreter]

Yes. By the terms of the acquisition contract, to continue using them would require paying VIACOM, who wanted a king's ransom.

It was a wise decision.

[The Interpreter]

I'm quite certain a far more flattering tale is told in da book.

And I truly am saddened Mr. Kinzel is not enjoying his retirement. That's truly sad.

[rhyano]

I'm quite certain a far more flattering tale is told in da book.

And I truly am saddened Mr. Kinzel is not enjoying his retirement. That's truly sad.

he probably misses Cedar Fair a lot, i can understand that, he was the face of the theme park industry for about 40 years.... 

[homestar92]

* If not, could the things and management there be better used elsewhere at FUN?

Funny enough, prior to the official announcement of Carolina Harbor, I would have been willing to bet a dollar to a donut that we were about to see the closure of Wildwater Kingdom, with its attractions being relocated to Carowinds for use in their waterpark expansion. In my mind, it made a lot of sense. Most of the attractions at WWK are things that were not present at Carowinds before the expansion, so it would have been a good way to add a bunch of new things to on the cheap to a park that is quickly growing into flagship-like size and status.

 

I can't imagine that the idea of closing WWK and moving its attractions elsewhere hasn't ever been discussed. The fact that it is still operating seems, to me, to indicate that it is still profitable, or at very least, that they are losing less money operating it than they would moving the attractions or if they let that land and those assets just sit there.

[The Interpreter]

It's not like the land would quickly sell...

[RollerNut]

Is it possible they keep WWK open to keep Geauga Lake land value from freefalling?

[rhyano]

Is it possible they keep WWK open to keep Geauga Lake land value from freefalling?

I can see that lol

[Top Flight Back Deck]

The land value actually hasn't changed too drastically. The cash they pay on for that land hasn't changed through reappraisal for years based off some records I've looked into.

 

That park will shut down, it's just a matter of when. The day Cedar Fair leaves those cities though, I'll be curious to see their reaction.

[The Interpreter]

Tax values are not indicators of fair market value. Fair market value is the amount of cash, or things reasonably equivalent to cash, that would change hands between a buyer and a seller, with both having full knowledge of all relevant facts and circumstances, with neither being compelled to act.