Should Kings Island get a record breaking coaster?

[Cory Butcher]

I have a feeling that niche, will soon be found at Geauga Lake! Our niche here at KI is ovbiously family oriented, but I would say that we will see better attractions come our way under Cedar Fair, and that Kings Island will be a crossover between Thrill-seeker and family in Ohio while maintaining its brilliant children's area! I personally think it would be in Cedar Fairs best interest to make the two parks compete...either way visitors are staying within the Ohio Monopoly of theme parks and going to one of their parks regardless.

Plus, with competition within the chain, the guests experience can only get better, since they arent trying to outdo each other for attendance and revenues but rather, best park experience. Now, of course this experience can subtract attendance and revenues from either park but these monies are not slipping into the hands of another park group, they are staying in house. Other than some possible pride at Cedar Point, nothing at all is lost if CF keeps KI and CP in competition and sometimes KI or Dominion or Canada's Wonderland steal their thunder.

Also if you look at it this way, before the aquisition of PP, Cedar Fair mostly had individual parks competing for Regional market share with Six Flags and Paramount in Cali, Paramount in Kings Island, and Hershey somewhat in Pennsylvania, and SDC in MO. With that being said all competition is wiped out in Ohio...except for maybe KK, Six Flags is all there is to deal with now in Cali, and other than SFOG, Carowinds has limited competition. I see this as time for Cedar Fair to move onto the next fish to fry...TOTAL National Market Share! They wont be content just sitting back now that they have all but conquered OH, and CA, and perhaps the entire Midwest Market. Cedar Fair will pour anything they can monetary wise over the next few years into all their parks, perhaps hoping to eventually cripple all competitors, This IS GOOD for any parks in the chain!

Yes, I know I left out the big Movie parks in CA, and FL...thats a whole nother fish to fry. I see a hypothetical chain of progression as follows:

1. Monopolize the Mid-West

2. Eventually move into Southeast Markets (Carowinds is a start)

3. Possess the largest REGIONAL market share out West

4. Possess the largest REGIONAL Market share in the North East

5. Possess the largest REGIONAL Market share in the Southeast

6. Possess the largest NATIONAL Market share in the West (Disney and Universal are big, this is MANY years off)

7. Possess the largest NATIONAL market share in the Southeast (again, with Disney and Universal, and Busch Gardens...MANY MANY years off)

8. Worldwide? (disregarding Canada)

The way I see it with all this work to be done, why not beef up the ride offerings at every park in the chain where profitable? I belief this beefing up is exactly what CF will do with the former PPs KI in particular! Also I would say that CF has completed objective 1, and is well on their way to 2, and 3!

This all of course, is just one mans opinion of what any good business should attempt to do if they want to be Magnificent and turn a maximum profit!

[The Interpreter]

One word: Antitrust.

[Captain Picard]

When they said KI is now family orientated is when they was saying they wasn't going to put the money into big thrill attractions. They are going to say it was a good thing if it was or not, that is their job.

Think of Six Flags, they said they was going family orientated too. They don't have a choice they don't have the money to do anything else.

We don't know what Cedar Fair plans to do now but I bet it's not what Paramount and CBS was going to do.

[The Interpreter]

You'd be surprised. Six Flags is pouring nearly as much money into park improvements, shows and family rides as they did into thrill rides in later years...And unlike certain other park chains, most of their parks have not cut, and some have actually increased, their hours of operation. Also, Mr. Shapiro has made quite clear that thrill coasters are not out of the question, but it was time to change emphasis for at least a while...

[Jamesv7]

KI has so much room to grow so you no CP will put something crazy in the park

[Cory Butcher]

One word: Antitrust.

Haha, I'm not talking complete monopoly here. I used the terms "largest market share". Cedar Fair doesnt need to be as exclusive as Microsoft is, but by having the largest share of the market, they stay ahead of their competitors in each area that I labeled as an arena to get into. As long as they arent the only parks standing in several years there isnt truly a monopoly. I just think businesses should push that antitrust bubble as far as they can before it bursts and then stop!

[Tuskin]

Cedar Fair will not make Kings Island only family oriented, and ill tell you why. First and for most they bought the park, they are fixing the sob, if they didnt want the park to have big rides they wouldnt be fixing it, they brought a new coaster in the same year, again if they wanted it family oriented and not big they wouldnt of brought in a new coaster, or at least new to us. Yes, I know its nothing special but its pretty good since they just bought the park and all!!!! Now with all the massive amounts of land Kings Island has, you dont think they will capitalized on that!?!? And again, Kings Island is a good 4 hours from Cedar Point, why not build it up? There was a topic in the site about how Cincy and Dayton will be so populated its like they are the twin cities up in minnesota, well with that being said there will be PLENTY of people around to make this park good for adding big rides, but also keeping to the family rides and kiddy areas as well! Heck we even bring more people into the park then Cedar Point does..

[Cory Butcher]

Heck we even bring more people into the park then Cedar Point does..

Well, Im not sure that we know that much, however the rest of your points I believe are Very valid, especially the one concerning the Cincinnati-Dayton area of the future. You can go even further though and say we have a triangle, with Indianapolis-Cincinnati-Dayton! I have to believe this combination can be just as strong if not stronger than Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit. With both parks competing for Columbus as well, there is no reason not to pour cash into KI in a reasonable and viable manner. Also, Hypotheically KI has 700+acres, CP has (-)400, This deffinatly gives KI an edge and great potential!

[Tuskin]

Well, I saw something online the other day that said ki brings more people into the park over the year then cp does but cp makes more money .. ill try to find that article and post it

[jzarley]

^ ^ While the Ohio MSAs are growing (particularly Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus), it's more a matter of existing smaller communities being absorbed into the MSAs--there aren't actually more people in the state of Ohio. (In fact, it's the opposite--Ohio is losing population, particularly among the important age groups of people in their 20s and 30s.)

Cory--nice strategic plan for world domination by Cedar Fair While you mentioned the other big park chains, you missed one huge potential competitor for supremecy for Cedar Fair--the Blackstone Group. (With, after the acquisition of Tussauds, is now the second largest "visitor attraction" company in the world--behind only Disney.) Blackstone are the guys to look out for...not only are they going gung-ho into the industry, but they have more cash on hand than CF could ever dream about

[flightoffear1996]

I think Cedar Fair knows how much more room Kings Island has than Cedar Point and they should be expanding on that land unlike Paramount. Paramount did build new things but many times we had to see an old ride go. Even though Cedar Point is next to a huge lake. Maybe one reason it gets a lot more tourism than KI. However with a few new rides just may change all of that.

I am just pondering on the fact that if Cedar Fair continues on expanding the way they are that pathway underneath The Racer will be very crowded unless something else is done. Also are they going to be changing the Flight of Fear sign that is over that pathway since its not the only thing back there anymore.

[Cory Butcher]

^ ^ While the Ohio MSAs are growing (particularly Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus), it's more a matter of existing smaller communities being absorbed into the MSAs--there aren't actually more people in the state of Ohio. (In fact, it's the opposite--Ohio is losing population, particularly among the important age groups of people in their 20s and 30s.)

Cory--nice strategic plan for world domination by Cedar Fair While you mentioned the other big park chains, you missed one huge potential competitor for supremecy for Cedar Fair--the Blackstone Group. (With, after the acquisition of Tussauds, is now the second largest "visitor attraction" company in the world--behind only Disney.) Blackstone are the guys to look out for...not only are they going gung-ho into the industry, but they have more cash on hand than CF could ever dream about

Why thank you! I happen to like my plan as well, aside from my mentioning the midwest as being monopolized, I meant dominating the market! Yes your right, Blackstone is a huge competitor. I did mention Universal Orlando which is a direct theme park competitor, and the companies equity investment for joint control of SixFlags! However you are right that I neglected to include LEGOLAND, and all of the European Parks, Legoland is a competitor here nationally, but worldwide was my last point so I just did not feel that I needed to include the European parks or other world wide interests as I was more focused on the National Amusment Park leader title. As for becoming the largest "visitor attraction" company in the world, I should have included all of these parks plus the other investments below, to which I did not list!

I realize I did not inlude Madam Tussauds as that is a visitor attracton, much like a zoo if you will, or a Ripley's. If Cedar Fair were to get into these other Visitor attractions, than yes this would be a concern as well and would have to be looked into as another arena for CF! Also you could contend that Blackstone's holding of AMF bowling centers or Cineworld movie plexes are competition, but as far as amusement parks which is Cedar Fair's interest at this time they arent as much competitors as attendence detractors on rainy days and late nights..which during these periods people arent coming to the park anyways, so there is no real loss just a potential untapped market! Other than lodging which when used is to the benefit of some Cedar Fair Parks anyways, those are the only real competitive markets to Cedar Fair, of which dont satisfy the "theme park experience" that CF, SF, WD, US, AB, LEGO(now Merlin), HFE (Herschend Family Entertainment), Hershey, and other independents provide!

In regards to the MSA's growing, one possibility is that with a revitalization of Ohio and Ohio jobs under Strickland, Ohio's population could start to reverse fortune and increase. This in turn would create more local and national business and tourism flow....somehow New York City is completely metropolized and it is a regional vacation destination for some! Not only could this happen but eventually, a greater population would mean more business for KI anyways.

Also are they going to be changing the Flight of Fear sign that is over that pathway since its not the only thing back there anymore.

I personally would say that that is a given, it isnt that hard to remove a sign...or they could alter the sign to include both attractions!

[flightoffear1996]

I wonder if they are planning a new area with a Area 51 theme or something.

[stewwill]

In the end money talks...and ignorance walks.

I don't want to come across as a know it all expert. Because of my age, my perspective is one of time. I go all the way back to Coney Island and the Shooting Star. Cedar Fair is a great theme park company. They need time. Firehawk was an attempt to make a quick impact. The new coasters at CP and VF were a few years in the planning stages. Cedar Fair is going to spend time running the new parks and getting that money spent per patron figure up. That's the key to a successful operation. I never considered CF a "There Park." It is a GREAT amusment park. I think you will see in the future years CF making KI more of a destination park. You now have Great Wolf. You will see more hotels and other attractions added to make KI the same kind of destination park that CP is. That means also that to keep guest interest at a high level, new rides will be added. KI has always been the accepted leader in Wood Coasters. It started with The Racer when the park opened and then The Beast. Son of Beast is still a work in progress. CP had been a leader in steel coasters. Now, we have the best of both worlds. I think you will see KI get a monster steel coaster. I can't say when but I am sure that CF realizes to keep attendance up, and with that the money spent per patron, big new attractions are a must. CF brings their expertise in steel coasters into play at KI. Just give them time to digest the new parks, see how they operate and figure out a master game plan for ALL the parks. Paramount was never a There Park operator. They saw the parks mearly as a vehicle to promote their movies. CF bought the parks to increase their market share in the amusment indurtry. Be patient, let them have a full year running the aquired parks. I think in the next few years,we will all be pleased with what CF does with KI. Just my opinion but Iam betting my money on CF making KI an even better park then ever.

[Tuskin]

I couldn't agree with you more stewwill

[SOB_TOM]

I did not mean at all that KI wont get big attractions, however I dont forsee a major coaster (record breaking) at KI. CP would be smart to leave KI as a family park, with a rotation of adult, teen, kids ride additions. So this year we get Firehawk, next year we get a medium flat, and then new kiddie rides, then something for adults. This is what will keep the interest of the entire family.

Just remember, a family of four, if kept in KI for an entire day, will spend more even if they have gold passes than someone who goes to the park, buys a ticket, and eats once.

[RWildman424]

I know that his might be a very unrealistic idea, but...I would like to see them completely re-do The Beast. Now, before you crap yourselves from someone saying that, I mean rebuild it the way it is right now, but make it so it can handle the speed it makes without the breaks. Its wood, wood rots over time (especially almost 30 years) Build it like you would build a coaster now with more support instead of the way they did it in 1979. I'm not saying that its bad the way they built it, its proven it can withstand what it needs to. Use computers that they didn't have back then. Maybe bank some of the turns differently, but keep the ride the same. And don't alter the double helix at all. That is the best section of a woodie that I have ever experienced in my 18 years of life. I agree with anyone who says that it is still an amazing ride, but there are too many brakes in my opinion. I would rather have that than a new record breaking coaster.

[SOB_TOM]

They replace the wood on The Beast every year, so its not rotted. Plus, hasnt that ride always had brakes on it anyway?

[BoddaH1994]

He's referring to the magnos. They slow you down more abruptly.

[RWildman424]

I think it did, but not as many, and they weren't as good at slowing you down. When you hit the brakes on the back straight run thing, you slow down to almost nothing. I think you're right about the wood part. I think different places get redone depending on what needs it the most so its probably been replaced atleast once since it was built just by replacing different parts. Please correct me if anything I say is wrong.

[The Interpreter]

Use computers to redo The Beast?

You mean use computers like they did when they designed Son of Beast? Computers are not the be-all and end-all of design. Bad design can come out of a computer; brilliant design can come from humans...and computers just AID or ASSIST, they don't do the design as such...at least not yet.

And the magnetic braking is more abrupt, but the overall braking lately has actually been less than it was on Beast during its midlife. You slow down quicker, but not to a slower speed....the skid brakes were just more gentle (and didn't work well in the rain...).

Now, if you want to talk about how much less braking Beast had when it opened, I'd agree. But times were very different...those days aren't coming back. Something tells me that if Beast were rebuilt to today's standards, you might be much LESS satisfied with it.

Not to mention the ride functions as it is, and there are many more pressing needs in the park than record breaking coasters or fixing functional ones they have. From cracked asphalt to building maintenance. From entertainment to general maintenance. And, from what I see and hear, Cedar Fair is looking at a lot of deferred maintenance that needs to be caught up on....and they will do it. It does take time.

[Captain Picard]

They need to fine tune the brakes so it would be less abrupt. I think the speed is ok but just don't like the way the brakes work.

Slowing it down as fast as they do has to be causing stress on the structure too.

[Tuskin]

Make no mistake, Cedar Fair knows about all of these mistakes, maintenance problems, mishaps, what have you, and they will fix them ... over time. Again it all comes back to paramount/cbs .. just wanting the parks to make an extra buck and not really putting much back into them, except for what they had to. Cedar Fair has nothing else to use the money one, so again like I have said again and again Cedar Fair is in the business FOR THE BUSINESS not to make an extra buck. Give them time and you will see Kings Island form and shape into an even better theme park then it already is. I can see Kings Island and Cedar Point running as the #1 and 2 theme parks in the country if Cedar Fair plays there cards right. That is truely an achievement more so then creating amazing new coasters at KI yea we love them, yea id love to have them, but once they fix all the rides a KI and all the maintenance that needs to be taken care of.. your gonna see Cedar Point and Kings Island all over the place as 2 of the best parks in the world... personal opinion of course

[RWildman424]

Good point about sob I never knew about the skid brakes being there...I guess I was too young to know what they were when they were there. I thought they slaped on some magnetic brakes a couple of years ago to keep it from tearing its self apart. And I agree with the computer thing. The Beast is a great coaster that came from great minds, a pencil, and probably lots of paper. I was just reffering to the "skimpy looking" structure in different places. I'm sure it does its job just fine and like you said, it still functions fine.

[stewwill]

I know one thing, in the first years The Beast was open, there was a lot less breaking AND, I remember doing this but I don't remember when it was, there were times, I think the first run of the day, they would run it with NO breaking. That was SOMETHING. The Beast without breaks was amazing. They say the speed is what..65-68 now? I don't even know. But I would be willing to bet with no breaking, that sucker ran about 75-80. I might be letting time cloud my judgement, but man it was lightning. I'm sorry none of you got to experience that. No wooden coaster to this day can top it. Even with breaks.

[CoastersRZ]

That is a common misnomer. The Beast, from the day it opened, has always had, and used trim brakes. Granted, before they switched to the new magnetic brakes, they could adjust how hard or light the trim brakes were applied, but they were applied. The Beast never reached close to eighty miles per hour.

When they switched over to the magnetic brakes, the ride now runs more consistent then it used to with the old sled brakes. The only way for the park to adjust the trims now, is to physically remove them from the ride. They do remove some of the trims at the top of the second hill during the spring months when the ride is still being broken in for the year, and not running quite as fast as it does later in the year.

[The Interpreter]

I believe, if memory serves, The Beast in early years clocked at 66m.p.h. RCDB.COM has 64.8, but I am pretty sure the sign used to say 66.

I also believe it hasn't done close to either figure in years and years.

[SOB_TOM]

They can still adjust how much brake hit they have on the ride. The mags are just more reliable. The only difference is how much of the brake you can see.

[The Interpreter]

Well, that and the entire way they function, the linear space necessary to accomplish the same amount of braking (and therefore, of necessity, the abruptness of that braking), the cost, the contention that one of the two systems is patented and the ones in use at Kings Island are alleged to infringe on that patent, the efficacy during precipitation and at least a dozen other differences. Other than that, they are the same: when working properly, they slow down the trains, as designed.

[Ki Man]

Kings Island needs a B&M Mega coaster full of airtime. We dont NEED a record breaking coaster, and I would not really want one. But KI has probly spent all the money on SoB.