bkroz

Terpy is the one who first brought this up, but I must reiterate it: The music on International Street seems to be one of those things that Cedar Fair changed only because they could. It's clear that the Paramount music is still available, since it's playing at another park (and better yet, one that never was and likely never will be connected to Paramount in any way - they had to physically send it there after removing it from Kings Island!). In fact, music that is obviously & blatantly linked to Paramount is playing at Worlds of Fun, Kings Dominion, and Great America (that I know of off the top of my head). In other words, it's clear that it could be used at Kings Island if they wanted it to be.

To be honest, I was much more impressed with the park's soundtrack this year than another other Cedar Fair year prior. Does it belong on International Street? No. But it was actually somewhat "magical" to walk out of the park, fountains blazing, and ' ' playing over the speakers. That song, in particular, seems very, very appropriate for International Street due to the strings, harp, and piano. It just brought back the days of grand music in my head, and I think it fit perfectly. I'm no musical expert, but I went home and listened to the song - the way that the words seem to trail off into the distance during the chorus was really exaggerated by the echoing of the sound system, and it was actually very beautiful - there were a few times I would've sworn that the fountains synchronized to the music, and that's something I've always longed for. The fact that it was playing as I exited the park, though, was a coincidence, and I wouldn't be very happy had it been Black Eyed Peas, as you said.

Er... corporate? Yes. One thing I don't miss is the in-your-face advertising. These smaller, infrastructure improvements are fantastic!

I have said before and I'll say again: I believe that, to the casual observer visiting all three of the original KECO Parks, it would be blatantly obvious that Kings Island was a "prototype." Both Kings Dominion and Canada's Wonderland are much more beautifully landscaped, have used paver bricks for years, and arguably have the two best International Streets - it's much more Universal-detailed, with more details in upper floors, more texture to the buildings, more beautiful fountains. Again, I think it's because Kings Island is very "clean" and corporate - with the Shamu-tank colored fountains, tidy landscaping and pastel colored buildings. Both Kings Dominion and Wonderland are more "free," with quirkier buildings, natural looking fountains, and wilder landscaping. Kings Island's entrance is the big, flat, 70's-looking International Restaurant (which I actually do like, the way that it blocks out the fountains until you're right up on them) whereas Kings Dominion's is meant to look like a castle, complete with turrets and authentic-looking lanterns... I just mean that, in photo comparisons or real-life comparisons, it's really quite obvious that Dominion & Wonderland were built once KECO had some money in its pockets... Look at Canada's Wonderland's Paramount Theater sometime - Their themeing has weathered many owners with many different intentions, and remains in tact where Kings Island's has not been so lucky. The only thing that Kings Island really has that the other parks don't is a much more simple, sensical layout. However, I may only feel that way since it's a layout I'm more used to. Kings Island, of course, remained the flagship and got a bulk of the good attractions both under Taft and Paramount, but as far as the basic, stripped down park, Kings Dominion and Wonderland have it beat easily, in my opinion. At least, in the forms they exist in today.

Notice, of course, that that's Kings Dominion. And, during the Paramount years... AND during the old logo era of the Paramount years. Why is that park always a step ahead?

Ah, Travis. Good kid, good kid.

No denying it - after purchasing the Paramount Parks, Cedar Fair started to develop an eye for themeing. In many ways, they had to - once you own Kings Dominion, you must at least try to place appropriate rides and appropriate places. It's too nice of a park to slap a millennium-and-technology-themed ride in the middle of a Frontier town. So they learned to create simple (but still passably themed) stations (see Maverick & Diamondback), play appropriate music in the queues where available (Maverick) and even add some little details - the props for Shoot the Rapids, the tunnel on Maverick (when it's turned on...), X-Base's expansion for Firehawk. Is it perfect? No. Are they trying? It seems that way. Now if only they would focus on fixing up the themeing on the old rides and adding themeing to the new ones... But still, touche Cedar Fair!

Something up their sleeves? Yes! A complete demolition? Maybe. A complete re-build? Maybe. The Iron Horse remake that Texas Giant is getting isn't a tear-down-and-build-it-over-again-with-steel. Again, I'm not an expert, but essentially the physical track itself is all that's being changed (except for some re-profiling) and somehow steel is being integrated into the existing wooden track for support... Someone want to elaborate and clarify? And Jasper, what I wouldn't give for that loop! And again I say (I must bring this up at least twice in every Son of Beast thread), the marketing writes itself. The park could even utilize that incredible image from when the ride re-opened after its 2000 downtime: a carriage, sitting on the track, the loop in the background and simple font reading: "Son of Beast was a real brat. But now, he's on his best behavior." The very idea of that poster gives me chills. Such epic marketing. Should our ride be majorly overhauled but retain its signature hill (and, one can pray, return the loop), that marketing is perfect. Absolutely perfect. Son of Beast: Reborn. It makes my eyes water. I'm all about potential, and that particular wooden roller coaster sure has a lot of it, for the right price.

First, welcome! You'll enjoy this site a lot. Or, that's our hope... haha! There are two ways your idea could be enacted, and both are possible and in use today. The first is to actually have steel rails held up by wooden supports. That is used at neighboring Adventure Express, which is a steel coaster with wooden supports. The same can be said of Gemini and Cedar Creek Mine Ride at Cedar Point. They are purely tubular steel track with wooden supports for ornamentation. It is a steel coaster, no questions asked. The other way that idea could be taken is what's happening right now on Texas Giant at Six Flags Over Texas. Dubbed "Iron Horse Track," it seems like they're placing iron beams along the wooden track... Somehow placing a sheet of iron into the existing wooden track? I'm not an expert on that, and there are plenty of people on here who know more about it than I. The big debate is, does the Iron Horse track count as wood, or steel, or something new entirely? It is yet unclear. Of course, it doesn't really matter except for classification purposes and world records. Texas Giant's renovation is set to leave it with a 79 degree first drop, making it the "steepest wooden coaster drop is the world." The question is, though... is it a wooden coaster? Either way, I would guess that Cedar Fair will be watching this transformation very, very closely. Maybe for Son of Beast, maybe for Mean Streak. If this renovation proves successful, it may be the best alternative for their more painful rides. Another thing to consider (though I doubt this will be the first matter to attend to in the Son of Beast dilemma) is, if the Iron Horse arrangement is universally declared a steel coaster, than using it on Son of Beast would, in effect, eliminate all of its records. It would no longer be the official tallest, fastest wooden coaster on earth, because it wouldn't be "wooden." Again, I hardly think Cedar Fair is just waiting to see on the wood vs. steel debate to decide to look into the Iron Horse format, it's just something interesting for us as fans to ponder.

Many rides are overly sensitive for such things. Firehawk's seats are one. Tomb Raider's gondola is another - if at any time the computer senses that the gondola is even a milimeter from where it should be, the whole ride stops. That's why the ride often E-stopped just before entering the "hangtime" over the lava. Sources say it's because Paramount opted for the pneumatic brakes instead of HUSS' recommended hydraulic ones (or the other way around, I forget). It's still evident in the ride's loooonnnngg "homing" sequence at the end of the ride where it essentially just moves back an inch at a time, locking and unlocking axels to try to get the gondola to align with the loading platform. Perhaps the braking problems are one of the things that helped make the current cycle our only cycle. Another ride that comes to mind is Disneyland's Many Adventures of Winnie The Pooh. It's well known for its sensitivity - should one car get too close to another (and we're talking one car being an inch ahead of where it should be) or if moisture hits the track or if it's too hot or too cold... Some say even a loud noise will stop the honey pots dead in their tracks.

It's always had problems. I believe every flying coaster from every manufacturer has. Maybe not Zamperla's (due to their lack of moving parks on the trains), but I'd take downtime on a Flying Dutchamn over uptime on a Volaire anyday. The fact is, the reclining aspect of the ride is incredibly sensitive - and rightly so.

Hmm...

It will be great to see Fantasmic return (I'm assuming it was not playing during this...) Especially since the new dragon only got in about a month before the waters were drained!

Completely different. Like, completely. Hard Rock Park was completely off the beaten path, located on a once-main-thoroughfare to Myrtle Beach that had long since been diverted. Their marketing was atrocious to say the least, their admission options were terribly priced, and their ride selections were all "basic" versions of great rides. If Hard Rock Park had been a local, regional park, it would've lived. But it sought to be a destination - people don't travel to ride Time Machine if they're within the same driving distance to a superior B&M, which most everyone is. If Hard Rock Park is an example of anything, it's that of a park that thinks it can skate by on its name alone. Clearly, it couldn't. Kings Island 1972 did not suffer from the "lack of quality rides." Many of the rides that were there when it opened, as Terpy said, are still celebrated, remembered fondly, and missed today. Would the park be a regional draw? No. Would it have season passes? Probably not. It would be much like modern day Coney Island or Indiana Beach - a small, humble, quality park with a few great rides and an emphasis on quality. Would it survive? Yes. Would it cater to the same people as it does today? No way. At all.

^ You know, you can press the "multiquote" button on more than one post, then hit reply and take care of all your responses in one post. Though the line does move slowly because of the unique seating (trust me, B&M flyers are no people-eaters themselves), keep in mind that another reason is the style in which guests are sent to the station - waiting in one big huge area where one train's worth of riders is sent to the loading platform at a time. If it were more traditional, where pairs of people would squeeze themselves into the station every couple of seconds, the line would feel like it was moving longer. I recall a similar problem with Tomb Raider back when it had a line - people would stand for five minutes and just assume that the ride was broken since you literally didn't move at all. Little did they know that the line will move, and when it moves, it moves. After standing completely motionless for five or six minutes, a massive 77 person group would be sucked into the ride in mere seconds. But for those who didn't know what the ride was (most people), it really did seem that something was broken. Most people are just used to the line moving consistently, even if its not quickly. Firehawk doesn't have that.

Sigh... You've (surprisingly) missed the point. Back to Boo Blasters.

Let's be honest. Maybe a 6. The stairs leading to the loading platform alone make it a 5... Though the dragon is wearing a tuxedo, which is more like a 4.5 because he looks so suave and trustworthy... And yes, I do imagine that that's really how they figure out ride ratings.

Ah, but if you're under the impression that Universal Parks & Resorts draws from the same fund as Universal Pictures, you're more naive than I thought (to reiterate your quote towards me, but I mean it in the best way, buddy ). Remember that when VIACOM split, the "new" VIACOM owned Paramount Pictures, while CBS owned the Paramount Parks... Paramount was part of a completely different network than the Paramount Parks. In much the same way, Universal Parks and Resorts is a division of NBC-Universal that is self-sustained and operates in its own microcosm, separate from the studio proper. It's not as if the Paramount Parks or the Universal Parks were given unlimited funds, drawing from the same gigantic vault of money that pays superstars for their work in Hollywood blockbusters. Universal Parks and Resorts makes its own money and spends its own money - the benefits that lie therein are its use of Universal Picture's library which, a simple scan of the parks will tell you, isn't even that utilized. Of the six Islands, only one uses a Universal movie theme (Jurassic Park) and the studios next door are overrun by Nickelodeon (not Universal), The Simpsons (not Universal) and Woody Woodpecker (not Universal). As a further example, the two parks of the Tokyo Disneyland Resort (the second of which is considered by many to be the pinnacle of theme parks) are not owned by the Disney Company at all. They're owned by the Oriental Land Company, who pays Disney a ridiculous sum of money every year to use the names, characters, and images of the Disney library. So Disney's big bucks from films, TV, music, and other media don't really pay a single cent of Tokyo Disneyland's costs, yet DisneySea is widely considered the near-perfect example of a themed amusement park. Do the Oriental Land Company and Universal Parks and Resorts make more money than Cedar Fair? Most likely. Could that be a reflection of the amount of money they're willing to invest? Probably. These are the things that one must know before one makes assumptions about where these parks draw their money from. If you think movies are funded by your $8 hot dog at Islands of Adventure, you're wrong.

That's why such parks are destinations - they're not necessarily meant for the local teens to get a season pass and go back every single weekend. And really, how it is any different than a roller coaster park? Don't you ever get to the point where you're really not interested in riding certain rides because you ride them every single week? And considering 1972 Kings Island was a success, it obviously does work! Haha.

Why, pray tell, do people travel for hours (myself included) to reach parks like Busch Gardens Williamsburg? Holiday World? Dollywood? These parks have one, maybe two stand-out rides (as Kings Island once did), an emphasis on preservation, and absolutely unbeatable customer service, food, shopping, shows, and atmosphere (again, as Kings Island once did). Most everyone here rants and raves about the original park - the lush vegetation, the unbelievable entertainment, the atmosphere, the performers... It's the same praise that parks like Busch Gardens still get today! Great atmosphere, great entertainment, great shows, and great rides. Busch Gardens has four roller coasters, and is consistently (and deservedly) rated one of the best parks on Earth with some of the best coasters. For me, it was probably the highest praise I could give that even their Arrow coaster is fantastic. Just focusing on rides alone (which is what they don't do, but for the sake of argument) I would take their four coasters, two water rides, and one dark ride over our fifteen coasters, three water rides, dark ride, and giant flat rides any day of the week - that's the power of focusing on all aspects of a park until you have a nice, rounded, equilibrium of attractions. Break down Islands of Adventure, consistantly considered one of the top five parks in the world, and what have you got? Two adult coasters, one dark ride, three water rides, and two shows. So why is a park with so little to offer so wildly popular? Because it also has everything else. Theme. Music. Atmosphere. Attention to detail. Great food. Reasonable prices... That is literally almost exactly what 1972 Kings Island was. It's quality over quantity. Parks that still believe in it are wildly successful destinations for many people.

*Drives nine hours to Busch Gardens Williamsburg*

If only I had the (evidently) massive breadth of "factual" knowledge you seem to have acquired... And these gems are only from this thread! This is supposed to be about our fantastic new ride, Boo Blasters. Arguments on themeing should be handled elsewhere.

Other than this ^ ( ) much of what you said is true. Imagine Mr. Kinzel approaching B&M and saying 'We want rocks to represent snakes hiding in rocks and a slithering layout and water to represent snakes being in water..." It's laughable. Our layout is "slithering." And if our ride were car themed, it would be "racing." And if it were bird-themed, it would be "flying." It's true about Top Thrill's stands, and fins (but the speed? You're saying the ride is well-themed because it's car-themed and it goes fast? ). Flight of Fear and Firehawk are still technically part of Coney Mall. The addition of the sign pointing to X-Base is nice. Yes. I'll give you that. I have no idea what you mean by this. I said it's beautiful and fun, but isn't "well-themed." It's just Christmas lights and holiday parade floats scattered throughout a western town after dark. It cannot be well-themed, and it cannot be poorly-themed any more than one could say our fireworks are well or poorly-themed... It's just a show. Yes, Cedar Fair can put in appropriate things where they belong - generic western music in line for Maverick, dragster facts in line for Top Thrill... But what I'm saying is, it has been proven that these seasonal parks can support so much more. Rides can have synchronized, on-board sound. Rides can have flames and water effects. They can have storylines set up by elaborate pre-shows! In other words, it has been proven that things like generic Western music are not praiseworthy. There was a time when playing Western music in line was enough, and people were impressed by it, and people said "My goodness I can't believe they have area-appropriate music in a seasonal park!" Then, Paramount, Dollywood, even Six Flags came forward and said "We have that, plus mist, plus Hollywood lighting, plus flames, strobes, storylines, and pre-shows!" Having music in line is nice, but to claim that's the best that can be done is a lie. I can't imagine anyone sitting here and fighting that Cedar Fair specializes in themeing. Your argument is that they're good at themeing because they haven't "ripped apart Boomerang Bay's theme"?? Have they made tremendous strides since 2006? Yes. But the core of the matter is, they took Kings Island's water effects, flame effects, synchronized music, storylines, pre-shows, and area-appropriate music away. Are they adding it back little by little a piece at a time? It seems that way. The CEO of Cedar Fair himself says theme is unimportant, that "roller coasters are our theme." I don't understand why you'd try to fight that. Cedar Point is randomly-named roller coasters with a nonsensical layout. Raptor (a bird of prey) across from Wicked Twister (a storm?) next to Disaster Transport (a space adventure) down the way from Iron Dragon (a mythical creature) next to Top Thrill Dragster (a race car). Kings Island is now and always has been more. Cedar Fair seems to be adapting to theme now that they primarily own themed parks. But to say they prioritize themeing? If the CEO of Cedar Fair himself says otherwise, why would you continue to argue?

I believe the thought is that, if such a merger were realistically attempted, there would be a lengthy period of interference wherein the government would decide if that constituted a monopoly. In my opinion, it would. Twenty-six parks under one banner, and nearly all seasonal, mid-range parks? Imagine the season pass system... Cedar Fair decided to utilize Paramount's when they purchased the parks. But if it came to 26 parks? What would a platinum pass costs? So, would the entire chain utilize Six Flag's system of any pass getting you into any parks sans-benefits like parking?

In all fairness, you can't say Cedar Fair is good at themeing because of things that they came into ownership of... They had nothing to do with Boomerang Bay's theme. X-Base as an area is mostly Flight of Fear's themeing that has been there since 1998, and the remotely-government-looking parts of Firehawk (the yellow and black stripes, the station shape, etc) were from Six Flag's X-Flight, and were not added to fit into X-Base. Diamondback's theme is, to say the least, minimal. If there weren't snake-skin appliques on the cars, the ride would have no themeBoo Blasters is very well done, but both it and its predecessor were built by Sally Corp, not by Cedar Fair or Paramount. Compare Top Thrill Dragster's "theme" to Backlot Stunt Coasters... If a stop light and a loop of "I'm ready to goooo" counts as theme, then my local Six Flags is about as well-themed as Disneyland! Starlight Experience is very nice, but what the debate has always been over is theme - pre-shows, detailed queues, storylines, little details, and dark rides. I love Starlight Experience, but it's not "themed." It's Christmas lights celebrating holidays in a Frontier-themed section of the park. It's awesome, don't get me wrong. But that's not the type of "themeing" people are talking about. The only instance of theme that Cedar Fair has ever created (as opposed to inherited) is Disaster Transport. I don't think we're asking for Revenge of the Mummy or Mission: Space... Just more things that Paramount proved were possible for seasonal parks - pre-shows, some nice lightning, maybe a musical score here and there. That sort of thing was once reserved for the Florida parks. Paramount, if only for a short time, proved that it was available for seasonal parks. Neither Flight of Fear, Italian Job, Boomerang Bay, or the actual ride chamber of Tomb Raider used a single movie prop. They just used good old-fashioned storytelling and some little details to make a ride really come to life. They have many nice parks with many nicely done areas. But even the higher-ups of Cedar Fair admit that theme isn't their thing. FUNWORLD Magazine. If the CEO of Cedar Fair says they care more about thrills than theme, why in the world would you try to disprove him?