Avatar

Wow and thank-you for sharing, those pictures really showed how Kings Island looked and with the old grand atmosphere. I know everybody loves the trees on international street but for me I liked the more wide open feel back in the day of your pictures.

Thanks Rotag1299 for the report. I seen on Facebook that you where there and I enjoyed the pictures then to. I had not been to that area since I was about 8-9 years old, so your trip actually has gotten me to look into taking the family down for a weekend trip, hopefully this off season. Thanks for sharing your experience on such a cool place.

Sorry StalkerChic I did not see the road side12 days of Christmas display. my room was on the southern tip of Pigeon Forge so that may be the reason. thanks for the heads up I will look for it next year, unless you care to enlighten us before then. BTW I though you were going over the Holidays or am I imagining things. Fun Fun Fun

Mr Kinzel never said that the other parks were getting Starlite Experience but rather said this. So the question is was he referring to the Starlite Experience which would be like a display or to the Hot Summer Nights show, which is a show and a form of entertainment. I hope for the parks that are receiving the new show are getting the Hot Summer Nights show. I enjoyed both but one is a basic light walk through versus a true entertaining night show.

Awesome report Todd and thanks for sharing. We have wanted to come down sometime during the holidays but always feared the high cost of the season plus the record crowds. Now seeing how Disney celebrates New Years Eve we may need to make that trip sooner than later. For somebody like you one thing is certain, you must be pinching yourself for living near theme park haven. I was watching some other videos at other Disney World parks and along with yours I am very impressed. Hollywood Studios also looked like a cool place to be, here is the link to that other site that shows live band stage and fireworks at Hollywood Studios. Doing Florida News

I would like to point out a couple interesting test Disney World has been doing lately in regards to the subject of will Disney change their FastPass system. In the past week Animal Kingdom put out some Fastpass kiosks by the Tree Of Life which gave out return tickets for both shows at the same time for Lion King and Nemo. Also in some of the character greets children or welcomed to play at a playground while one of the guardians waits in line. When the guardian reaches a certain point in line a cast member gives them a card and sends them to retrieve their children and they return in their spot in line. Another test which may give a glimpse to how Disney World plans to deal with its new Fantasyland area and to get families out of the lines is by following a test they are using at Hollywood Studios Rock-n-Roller Coaster. They hand out color coded cards and list the return times for each color. This is to prevent guests from standing in a long line and while they wait for their turn they can make use of the restrooms, take pictures, shop or enjoy a snack. Notice if the guest are milling around out side the lines but waiting for their turn for the ride they may be tempted to buy something and that approach may make more money for them because all guests will be subject to that approach and therefore making money from every family and not just those who use the system the way it is now. Here a link that shows how it works and pictures to go along with it. http://www.attractio...roller-coaster/ In my opinion I do not see Disney charging for a FastPass system but see them modifying it in such a way that it continues to meet guests satisfaction and in a way that helps them to increase sales in a indirect way.

Thanks again for the nice reply's, I am still looking forward to another trip to the Smokies ASAP. Stanbyme - with the drive you will be making and the fact you could do without the shows and you went in the summer with all the rides open then I would say; yes it is worth the trip but just barley. The rides are great the atmosphere is awesome the food selections are wonderful and flavorful. But just barely worth the drive you would have. BUT knowing you the way I do, I would say if you planned to stay in the area (Galinburg for you only) for a few days in conjunction with a Dollywood visit, then I would say; You will feel confortable with the environment and I think you would enjoy the many fun family activities in the area, Such as Ripley's, sight seeing and scenic gondola rides up the mountain. I will go so far to say knowing you, A trip to the area should be high on your list. I look forward to your report when you get back.

Talking about Deja Vu except last time it was DropZone99. Thanks for a nice chuckle this evening.

What? They did build Garfield Park in Indy clear back in 1873, and it has lots of fountains. I have many memories in that park as I have watched many performances there and even played in one as a little one. My daughter has even participated in activities there. It is a nice park with many affordable activities. Check it out http://www.garfieldg...nservatory.org/ If my above post sounds familiar then you would be right as it was briefly discussed in another thread started back in January of this year when Kings Island started to look for 2009 season workers in this link http://www.KICentral...=1entry265475 We here in central Indiana would love a amusement park like Garfield. I hope more post here if they have any information of interest

Thanks everyone for the kind replies and sorry for those who read the report the first night before I could correct the grammar and word substitutions Dragon made. Rotag1299- yes Dragon types things out and the program is still learning me and my vocabulary as I am trying to learn all the ins and outs of it. I can also use it to open most my programs like e-mails and even KICentral just by telling it what I what opened and where I want it to go. Overall I like Dragon and the options it offers, this report was good for both of us to learn a bit more from each other. kiruler102 – thanks believe it or not I am still working on my fall vacation report. I just received some of the pictures from that trip a couple weeks ago and wanted to use some of them in my video for some of the days. I just need a few more hours in the days. CoasterRZ - thanks for the fun facts! StalkerChic - thanks for the recommendations and hope you have fun when you go soon. Daragirl and Dave thanks for the replies and I hope next year a group from KICentral can make a stop at Dollywood as it seems like I hear about a lot of season pass holders for Dollywood posting on here. Normal – yes it is a beautiful area and I can see why you go often and stay for so long. I did notice several camping facilities in the area. But I have not built up my camping supplies over the years so it has been cheaper to stay in a hotel. I do from time to time think I should take Miss Rae camping so see can experience e that first hand. Cory – I hope you and Robbie have a good time and I was tickled to see you got to spend some great family time together especially with your mother.

This is all so interesting and insights many pondering thoughts. At this time it's hard to predict anything but more of a wait and see situation. I was worried when Cedar Fair purchased Kings Island as I was worried they would move away from a theme park image and as it turned out I was right. But I was very glad to see them make many capital improvements, to resurrect the entertainment department and bring back a nostalgic feel to Kings Island. So over all from a guest point of view I feel Cedar Fair has been an improvement for Kings Island even though the number one issue for me is theme in a park, I often wonder what Cedar Fair would have done with Kings Island if they had the financial resources to follow through. At this point nobody on this board can say with certainty if this purchase is all good, bad or indifferent for Kings Island. So I hope that anyone who wishes to voice their optimism, skepticism or realistic views do so as this is a discussion forum and I often learn from others differing opinions because they bring up subjects that I may have not thought of. I can not think of any better time for this board KICentral to be so open to a discussion which encompasses everyone hopes, fears, concerns or relief of the unknown subject at hand.

Sorry I was just trying to help you with your declaration of thinking Roy had died a while back. If you are at all interested the history of Walt Disney or the Disney company you may want to browse the site i am giving a link to.http://corporate.disney.go.com/corporate/complete_history.html

You may be thinking of Roys nephew Walt who died December 15, 1966. Kinda of ironic that they died almost on the same calender date. Roy (Walt's nephew) who was a partner with Walt put off retirement after his brothers passing to complete the Disney World project.

Oh the grief is overwhelming! It's always hard to say goodbye to such visionaries but Roy did live a good life and even as he parted ways with the Disney Board he still had influence trough some very loyal followers. RIP Roy

Twas The Night At Dollywood Due to the wintery weather last Wednesday that forced me to delay making a pick-up in Knoxville Tennessee and then rescheduling it for Monday December 14, 2009, it gave me a perfect opportunity to mix business and pleasure. I have never visited Dollywood and the communities around the park or the mountain area of Gatlinburg. So I decided to leave a day early and visit Dollywood and stay overnight in Pigeon Forge, then in the morning tour the area to include Gatlinburg Tennessee before making my necessary business pickup. This trip report follows this journey. Sunday, December 13, 2009 I left home at 730AM in the morning and made the six hour journey to Pigeon Forge, other than a light rain the drive went very smooth until getting off the highway onto Route 66,that about 13 miles from Dollywood. That 13 mile stretch is filled with stores, shows, hotels, restaurants and every conceivable tourist points of interest imaginable. The best way I can describe the traffic along that 13 mile stretch would be to compare it to driving by a mall during Christmas time. Unfortunately I gave myself some extra time and arrived at Dollywood at 2 PM as they were opening for the day. I decided to purchase a gold season pass as I plan to return next year with the family, plus by going gold we will be able to enjoy many perks and benefits that Dollywood offers.. With the light rain and the fact that it was Sunday with the park opening at 2PM I thought it would be a good possibility that the park would be slow (guests wise), This proved to be correct. I noticed right away as I was going into the park that it was immersed with Christmas decorations to include very costumed friendly staff. After grabbing a map and a show guide I decided to take in first show of kingdom Heirs Note; I did get permission to take all pictures and videos used in the trip report as I was using a tripod for my camera. Kingdom Heirs does not allow video as they do professional work outside of the park, but all the shows allow photography. If you go and plan to use a tripod just tell any associate as you go in what you plan to do and they will be happy to show you the best spots. I decided since it was early and still a bit wet outside I would go ahead and see a second show called Christmas in the Smokies. The show was mostly Christmas songs with a wide variety of singers so they could entertain the audience with a wide variety of popular Christmas songs. I did enjoy the show and special lighting effects they used in the show. <object width='640' height='360'><param name='movie' value='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf' /><param name='flashvars' value='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=3ae08147d1957a40f667d069677b16fb%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88648435%26w=640%26h=360' /><param name='allowFullScreen' value='true' /><param name='bgcolor' value='#000000' /><embed type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='640' height='360' allowfullscreen='true' bgcolor='#000000'src='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf'flashvars='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=3ae08147d1957a40f667d069677b16fb%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88648435%26w=640%26h=360'/></object> After Christmas in the Smokies I decided it was time to set out to see the rest of the park as after a 6 hour drive and two shows my butt was getting little tired of sitting. Since Polar Express 4-D was next to the theaters I started with that which ended up being the longest line I waited in all evening. Polar Express 4-D was okay and the only noticeable simulation was basically during the train ride which resulted in a very bumpy ride to the point I was ready for the show to end. From there I started to head back to the back of the park to catch some coasters. I did notice the park seemed to be very slow especially since the park had been open for three hours. Along the way I did enjoy the park decorated with so many favorite Christmas characters. As I was getting close to Blazing Fury I was thinking how friendly many of the guests and staff were as ever one seemed to greet each other with a Merry Christmas. You can probably imagine how shocked I was being six hours away from home and hearing someone say "hey are you Avatar". I will not name the long time member I met at Dollywood so that maybe he will be inclined to make his first post even though he has participated in many KIC events. I always enjoy meeting and chatting with so many great members, it makes park touring so much fun. I thoroughly enjoyed Blazing Fury and they had many Christmas decorations up throughout the ride, I enjoyed the surprises that lurked around every corner. Tennessee Tornado was another great surprise and I absolutely loved the smoothness and the tunnels that led to the loops. Those who know me know how much I like theme rides and I must say Mystery Mine was great fun. Next up was Thunderhead, I really really really liked Thunderhead. I rode in the front seat and I was surprise with the smoothness of the ride. The ride never really slows down at any point, I kept waiting for a mid-break run area to slow things down a bit but it never did come, I tend to like air time on my coasters and this one really gave it to me, this is a great woody. It was getting pretty dark now so I decided to stroll towards the front of the park and enjoy the many lights displays. I really enjoyed the atmosphere of the park and seeing some of the shows that were more open for those walking by. The Carol of the Trees was getting ready to start so I took that in and videoed it to share with you all, I was hoping for more from Carol of the Trees show. <object width='640' height='360'><param name='movie' value='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf' /><param name='flashvars' value='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=ac7aaac86fc6e50bc50c5c509fe68713%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88654263%26w=640%26h=360' /><param name='allowFullScreen' value='true' /><param name='bgcolor' value='#000000' /><embed type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='640' height='360' allowfullscreen='true' bgcolor='#000000'src='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf'flashvars='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=ac7aaac86fc6e50bc50c5c509fe68713%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88654263%26w=640%26h=360'/></object> After the tree show I was getting hungry since I had not eaten since 730 this morning, I decided to take interpreters advice and use my 20% percent discount to eat at Aunt Granny's restaurant. My late grandmother was from Tennessee and I must say the last time I was fortunate enough to eat her home-cooked meals was when I was seven. Her meals had a very distinct hardy flavor to them and Aunt Granny's restaurant instantly took me back in time from both the flavor of the food and the hospitable friendliness of the staff. After dinner I decided to take in one last show and one that ever one told me not to miss called Dollywood's Babes In Toyland. The show is an hour-long show and is a major production. I can understand how everyone says do not miss that show. <object width='640' height='360'><param name='movie' value='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf' /><param name='flashvars' value='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=10f412fe7aceed4dbd56f9239b24948e%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88654279%26w=640%26h=360' /><param name='allowFullScreen' value='true' /><param name='bgcolor' value='#000000' /><embed type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='640' height='360' allowfullscreen='true' bgcolor='#000000'src='http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=player&.swf'flashvars='config=http://albums.phanfare.com/video_config.ashx?m=conf%26hs=10f412fe7aceed4dbd56f9239b24948e%26u=1009485%26a=4484836%26i=88654279%26w=640%26h=360'/></object> After the show I only had short time left before park close with the evening so I decided to walk around and take pictures and I will share some of them here. I truly enjoyed my visit to Dollywood during the Christmas season and look forward to going back during the summer months to enjoy the rustic feel that Dollywood has. Dollywood has wonderful theme for a seasonal park and look forward to sharing this type of adventure with my family. On the way to my hotel I came across Pigeon Forge Patriot Park which was celebrating 20 years of holiday lighting. Not much Christmas lights but more generic everyday light scenes that could be placed out any time of the year. As I left Patriots Park I saw one of the restaurants that Topgun1993 suggested called "Old Mill" and it looked like a really nice place but since Interpreters' recommendation of Aunt Granny's turned out so well I thought I would go with his recommendation and save the Old Mill suggestion for when I come back with the family. I arrived at my hotel called Vacation Lodge, it wasn't anything fancy but offered me a warm room, bed and a clean shower for the morning. I got the room on Priceline for $25. The next morning I woke up and made some phone calls and checked my e-mails then headed to a place Interpreter recommended for breakfast called Log Cabin Pancake House. Again nothing fancy here but just good home-cooked breakfasts and a friendly staff. I had bone-in cooked ham with two eggs plus pancakes on the side. The ham and eggs were very delicious but would require a bit of work later with a toothpick. Since the place is called Log Cabin Pancake House you can imagine that pancakes is their specialty, they had a large selection and many varieties to choose from. I just got the basic pancakes and they were nothing really special but what was spectacular was the homemade warm syrup they serve with their pancakes. Starting my business I worked at a restaurant and ended up becoming roommates with the head chef, from that I learned to appreciate very distinctive flavors in a variety of dishes. I enjoyed the flavor of the syrup so well that I tried to ask them what the special ingredient was that made it uniquely flavorful. They said they could not tell me so I asked if I could buy some, they said of course they sell it all time and they would go and get me a quart to take home. So that is two solid and much enjoyed recommendations from Interpreter. Interpreter you're the man! At this point my contact in Knoxville Tennessee called and asked what time I would be arriving and I told him I would be arriving in approximately two hours. So I needed to get moving so that I could take a quick drive through Gatlinburg, I am sure glad I did make that drive. Gatlinburg is a beautiful community nestled in the Smoky Mountains and I think when I take the family back that is were we will stay. I was surprised that there was so many places you can pull off and take pictures of the mountains. There are many streams that flow between the highway leading from Pigeon Forge to Gatlinburg and they were crystal clear. At this point I was getting worried I would not meet my contact to pick up on time so I did no further stops but I did make it in time and everything went smoothly. On the way home I decided to stop and take some photos of a Ferris Wheel that I thought looked cool perched high above a cliff. Everything went smoothly all the way back to Indianapolis and during that time I had some time to reflect on this journey and remembered what was truly important about such trips, and that is these 15 boxes must make it back to Indianapolis in a safe manner. Because they paid for the whole journey plus my business reputation depends on it, as without that next years summer trip will not be possible. But make no mistake I will be back. So until then thanks for reading, Jesse P. S. this is the first trip report that I have used Dragon to write a report of this magnitude so please forgive me if there are some grammar mistakes as Dragon sometimes likes to change things around.

Hi everyone. Well I returned home last and was able to browse the new skin on the site and to upload my pictures from the trip before tuning in for the evening. I'm getting ready to head out to work but before I do I just want to take a minute and thank all those who made suggestion on shows, rides and eateries. Those tips really came in handy and I used and followed many of them. I do plan to submit a trip report as I feel I have enough pictures and video to help me tell about the Pigeon Forge journey. Here is a sneak peek at one of the pictures taken at Dollywood. Again a big THANK-YOU to all who helped make this a very enjoyable journey. Jesse

Firehawk 123 - I do not know the size of your family but $1500 sounds like a lot of money just for tickets (a adult 10 day ticket cost $258.80). I very quickly checked and your family (assuming a family of four) went at the same time we go next year it would cost your family $1692.96 for seven days. This would include for each person all transportation to and from the airport,all transportation to and from your resort to the parks, two meals a day (one being a table service), a snack, a park ticket to include both theme and water parks and a Disney resort room. If you cut out the option for the water parks and Disney Quest and keep everything I mentioned above then it would only cost you $1,496.94. I am not sure what you mean by the "need to offer more options" as I think if you research for various Disney packages you'll find an array of options to fit every family. If your family is really serious about trying to go to Disney in an affordable way I am willing to help point you to various sources that can help you find the best deals. I have helped or made suggestions to other members on where to go and other various helpful tips concerning a trip to Disney. The thing is Disney is not free nor is any other amusement park vacation.

Agreed, that title should say "Disney to phase out some promotions during some parts of the year". All the promotions that Disney has been offering are promotions they have been using for years but only during some parts of the year to target different demographics, they started using those promotions longer to attract guest to go during what was normally the busy time of the year. Aaron88stang - it is good to hear that you got to go to Disney this year. It is true that even though Disney resorts took in less revenue this year they actually achieved some other goals by attracting some visitors who would normally not make the trip and by doing so they hope they have attracted repeat business. In your post it is the affirmation that Disney was hoping for. We have for the past four years took advantage of Disney's free dinning promotion during the fall months. I am very surprised every year when they offer that promotion as it is cheaper to stay at Disney then it is to stay at my brother's house for free. We have also booked this package for next fall because of the fantastic deal we get. This year it will cost us only $46.86 per person per day which includes all transportation to and from the airport and on Disney property, a park ticket for everyday, a snack, a counter service meal including dessert and drink, a table service (waiter service) meal which also includes a drink and dessert and a on-site room. I do not think anybody can find a better deal that includes so much for only $46.86 per person per day. I wonder how Disney can offer this so cheap. If anybody doubts this I have a invoice from Disney that backs what I'm saying up and will be happy to show it if necessary. I believe Disney will offer the free dining promotion to the general public again next fall as they have done in the past. I say that because they have already been offering this promotion for guest who have stayed there last year as a bounce back promotion and that is usually a sneak peak for promotions to come. Edited to fix grammar mistakes, Dam Dragon.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me prepare for this impromptu trip. I am taking notes and think I will follow through on getting the Gold Season Pass. I doubled checked Dollywoods website and found out that they will not open until 2PM on Sunday, so in that case I will use the Q2Q if they offer it on that day. Gad198 and AintNutinElse2Do thanks for the recommendation to Puleo’s Grille, The menu and selection looks really good but unfortunately I will need to leave the Knoxville area by 11AM on Monday so I will need to pass this trip but I have saved the link to my favorites so that next season when I take the family I know a good restaurant. Everyone’s descriptions are really getting me excited for both the shows and rides. XGatorHead8904 thanks for the recent review and recommendations and I am glad you recommended the Heartsong show I thought that would be one I would skip until I read your post, Thanks.

Thanks Interpreter, I checked last night to make sure it was Kings Island and on my link it listed Kings Island as the venue. Both my link and your link do not work at this time, so something is up. I have not attended one of his freedom concerts but know some who have and they loved it and said it was well worth the money especially knowing it was going to a good cause. I would hate to see Kings Island not getting his concert back and if it is in fact moved to another location, then a moderator needs to move this topic to Off-topic or delete it altogether.

Sean Hannity has announced his freedom concert series for 2010 which includes a stop at Kings Island on Saturday, August 7, 2010. For more information or to order tickets now follow this link https://freedomconcerts.com/cincinnati

Thanks Interpreter, this is the type of information I am looking for with 5 1/2 hours of shows available I felt like I needed to weed some shows out but I wanted to make sure I got the good ones in and knew you all could give me some good advice. I have heard so much about Aunt Granny's that I plan to eat there too. I am leaning towards using Q2Q so that I can make sure I get everything in. This will be a solo trip unless someone else from here is going on Sunday too. The weather looks to be around 50°, any recommendation for rides Thanks for the article to.

Hi everybody, due to the recent bad weather I was unable to make a pickup in Knoxville Tennessee. We have rescheduled to make a pickup on Monday, December 14 which gives me an opportunity to visit Dollywood for the first time. I should get there at opening and stay till closing which is from 11 AM till 9 PM. I would like to ask any members who have attended Dollywood during the Christmas festivities if you could recommend the must do rides, shows and any other must dos. Thank you for any information. Dragon

I am not sure why Kings Island and great Wolf Lodge can not offer something for SP holders especially since most SP holders live in the area, they need a good discount to consider staying over night in their own area. The thing about GWL is that it makes no difference if it is located next door or 100 miles away it is a getaway all itself. Disney, Universal Studios, Dollywood and many other parks offer resort discounts to its SP holders and many of the resorts are not owned by the parent company or have the Official Resort of the park tied to it. I think a good discount for GWL to offer KI SP holders would be to offer a good spring and fall discount. A perk is a perk unless it is useless to the honoree. I have seen a steady decrease in perks that my family would consider a perk at KI, granted we do enjoy some of them like free parking and this past years BBQ picnic. I hold back my opinions sometimes on here as it is looked at by some as being critical of the park but I must say the bring a friend for $9.99 day is a self serving KI perk and really not a benefit to us as it usually falls on fathers and mothers day. If they offered it on more days or gave me a coupon so I could bring friends on more days like Tuesday through Thursday then we would be more likely be able to use that perk. There are others but Truly I do not want to come of as dissing KI, they work hard and the target to balancing proper perks incentives that benefit both KI and their SP holders is a ever changing target with many variable aspects.

Sorry; I just can not let this go unchallenged. Goodyellowkorn182 please understand this is not meant to single you out as I use you post to dispel comparisons but I always try to make sure members on here and those who read here that an Orlando vacation is more affordable than many think. Yes it does cost some money as every vacation does but many times I read unfair caparisons and worry that some may shy away from a great vacation after reading so many extreme comparisons. First lets make sure the readers understand that Disney World has four parks and offers those who wish to visit 2-4 parks in the same day a park hopper option which runs $55.83 (including tax) for those who use the Magic Your Way tickets that option is the same price if you buy a one day ticket or a ten day ticket. So if you bought the option with a 10 day ticket it would only cost you an average of $5.83 per day. I think it would be foolish for anyone to buy the Park Hopper option for a one or two day pass. Yet many try to use that example to show how expensive Disney is and Universal tries to use that analogy too, which I think hurts them but that is for another topic. A one day ticket to one of Disney World runs for $79 but with tax it costs $84.14Busch Gardens runs the same price but they are currently running a special that adults can buy a one day ticket for the Childs price of $64.95 then with $4.55 tax it comes to $69.50. So using the example above here is the figure I came up with Busch Gardens $69.50 admission (on special) + $14.95 (or up to $24.95 depending on the season) for Quick Queue = $84.95 depending on the day or season Disney $84.14 (year round) admission + $0 (year round) for Fast Pass Comparison depending on the year but we will use Busch parks sale price $84.95 For Busch Gardens for both admission and Quick Queue (Special Price) $84.14 for Disney and Fast Pass (year round) So Disney comes out a $0.81 cheaper than Busch Gardens does with their year round price versus Busch Garden special price. As I have said before and will say as many times as I need to; when you add it all up the Central Florida parks all cost about the same.